Vorp vs Per vs TS

[GrindCityHustle]

Seems like per was the old standard. Not useful for today's NBA style but in the past very helpful

TS is what Nate Duncan likes and alot of poster around here prefer. It does give centers advantage though. Permitter players get punished like Iverson.

Vorp is the new one and i like it alot.

LeBron James 146.13
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53
4. Karl Malone* 98.96
5. Kevin Garnett* 96.86
6. Chris Paul 95.80

Bulls still won like 55 games when Jordan retired which hurt his number alot. Cavs disintegrated without lebron. Cavs said they weren't tanking though.



Which one is really the best though

Watch on YouTube

[Cavsfansince84]

There is no single best since ts is just scoring efficiency and pure box score derived metrics don't really give much of any measurement of defense. You sort of need to include things like rapm and other similar metrics on top of box score ones then fill in the intangibles with what you know about the player.

[The Rebel]

Ts% only measures scoring ability VORP and PER are trying to encompass the entire stat sheet. All of them have flaws, including every advanced stats you can come up with.

[GrindCityHustle]

There is no single best since ts is just scoring efficiency and pure box score derived metrics don't really give much of any measurement of defense. You sort of need to include things like rapm and other similar metrics on top of box score ones then fill in the intangibles with what you know about the player.

Plus minus is another good one

Score when plays enters vs player leaves I believe

[TheShow2021]

Vorp is the best imo. Kareem would easily be top 2 if they had it in his prime. And he very likely would have lead the league 11 years in a row in VORP because he had the best BPM those 11 years.

[Jables]

What is Vorp good for? I never really get these things. Like I get what it is, it just seems a bit arbitrary to judge players by someone directly replacing them when it's some defender and it's probably the last few minutes of garbage time. At least the other stats are actually trying to judge a player on their own merits.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_yearly.html

Imagine you judged MVP every year using it, Dirk, Giannis, Nash, Iverson, Hakeem, Moses, Walton all no MVPs.

[ijspeelman]

TS% isn’t a one number metric like VORP or PER. It’s just a measure of how efficient each shot a player takes is compared to a normal 2 point shot.

If you want to use TS% to evaluate a players scoring, you need to contextualize a lot of how the player scores. What is the volume? Are a lot of their shots being assisted? Are they getting to the FT line a lot? Do they take self-generated threes? Etc.

[CoP]

Look at all of them

[Blame Rasho]

Ts% only measures scoring ability VORP and PER are trying to encompass the entire stat sheet. All of them have flaws, including every advanced stats you can come up with.

Exactly, it is simple minded to just use one stat to evaluate players. Several advanced stats would say that Manu Ginobili was better than Kobe Bryant but is that really the truth? They are evaluating tools, and each advanced stat need to be put into context before just saying see this guy is better than this other guy.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

TS% (plus assisted percentage ) is the only one that does a good job when comparing players IMO. PER a black box hidden formula. Probably tells you how bad a player is more than how good they are. VORP is essentially plus minus which has obvious flaws.

[Blame Rasho]

There is no single best since ts is just scoring efficiency and pure box score derived metrics don't really give much of any measurement of defense. You sort of need to include things like rapm and other similar metrics on top of box score ones then fill in the intangibles with what you know about the player.

Plus minus is another good one

Score when plays enters vs player leaves I believe

Plus minus is dependent on how much your teams / coachses rotation and if they are good or if they suck. It isn’t good without context. All stats need context.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

TS is what Nate Duncan likes and alot of poster around here prefer. It does give centers advantage though. Permitter players get punished like Iverson.

Kind of like saying assist stats punish big men. Big men are suppose to be more efficient . They taker shots closer to the goal. More likely to be fouled. Think some stats aren't really meant to be compared across positions.

[Blame Rasho]

TS% (plus assisted percentage ) is the only one that does a good job when comparing players IMO. PER a black box hidden formula. Probably tells you how bad a player is more than how good they are. VORP is essentially plus minus which has obvious flaws.

Per is dependent on how good the avg player is in a given season. It is why you can’t compare pers season to season. It is only useful for that given season and even at that it has its shortcomings. It doesn’t properly evaluate defensive measures and leans more to offensive stats which are easier to quantify.

[BoatsNZones]

Seems like per was the old standard. Not useful for today's NBA style but in the past very helpful

TS is what Nate Duncan likes and alot of poster around here prefer. It does give centers advantage though. Permitter players get punished like Iverson.

Vorp is the new one and i like it alot.

LeBron James 146.13
2. Michael Jordan* 116.05
3. John Stockton* 106.53
4. Karl Malone* 98.96
5. Kevin Garnett* 96.86
6. Chris Paul 95.80

Bulls still won like 55 games when Jordan retired which hurt his number alot. Cavs disintegrated without lebron. Cavs said they weren't tanking though.



Which one is really the best though

Watch on YouTube

Trolling?

[picko]

All of the major aggregate measures have their flaws but most of them arrive at very similar conclusions, albeit sometimes with a few players who seem to be unusually ranked.

PER is perhaps the most simplistic and flawed of these measures. But if you relied entirely on that measure you'd believe that Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and Doncic were the league's best players. You'd also believe that guys like Jordan and LeBron are the greatest of all time. So your assessment wouldn't exactly be terrible even if there are other measures that offer greater scope and complexity and nuance.

[SpreeS]

TS% - as alone adv stats tell you nothing

1. Can't see volume
2. Can't see shots type
3. Can't see scoring creation
4. Can't understand how did players perform to own era.
5. Can't compare TS% from different eras.

With these you would have whole picture
TS+ (How good is player to own era)
TS Add (Shows volume and combination of TS+ and TS Add show how many games played)
FTr/3PAr (What types of shots were made)
% of FG ast'd (Creator or finisher)

[SpreeS]

PER

I will write here only 3 players career PER and It tells you everything about how terrible this stat is

2. Jokic 27.67 (He will have the best career PER next year)
120. DeRozan 18.99
121. Bill Russell 18.90

Draymond and Rodman are around 400-500

[XTC]

Look at all of them

This guy gets it.

[Dutchball97]

PER is incredibly outdated and doesn't really tell you anything outside of how much someone produces on the offensive end. Even for the era of Russell/Wilt and Mikan before them, we've got WS available which isn't great either but clearly better than PER.

BPM/VORP is the best boxscore-derived metric we have today because it takes more things into account than PER and WS. However, defensively it's still a really flawed metric and is mainly useful to identify the best offensive players in the league.

RAPTOR (538) is a bit more complex than BPM but often gives similar results and has more use offensively than defensively, although with bigger sample sizes RAPTOR becomes a bit more reliable.

RAPM (shotcharts) isn't as much of a "ranking" as the other stats because it shows how well a team is doing with them on the court instead of how good they are playing overall. It's still a very useful stat though to see who in a team had the biggest impact on success. Being lower ranked isn't really a problem if you're clearly the most impactful on your team.

LEBRON (bball-index) is my preferred stat from 2010-2022. It's a lot more advanced in it's methods and especially defensively it's just a lot more based in reality than BPM or RAPTOR.

EPM (dunksandthrees) is the best stat available for the current season and while it goes back to 2013 or so, previous seasons are sadly locked behind a paywall. This season it has also become a premium function to search for specific players although overall rankings and team data is still available. It's called the gold standard of advanced stats by some of the best minds in analytics so even though it can't be used for historical comparisons and might be locked away entirely in the future, I'd recommend using it as long as we're still able to.

[Lockdown504090]

they’re all data points that should Be looked at with an “and” mindset instead of an “or” one. Play type data. Impact metrics. Tracking data, scheme, eye test and situation all matter together, not separately