2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[SunsRback4Good]

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Great commissioner he was also cast for Blade a few decades ago before getting his big break in the NBA.

[bwgood77]

Kyrie is not top 15. I can easily name 20 players I'd rather have. All are better than Ky. He's great of course but you're going overboard there.

Given everything he isn't, but when he's playing, he probably is. He was ranked between 10 and 15 before his shenanigans, and even for a while after. But given his whole package of what you get from him on and off the court, he isn't, and has therefore dropped into the 20s. But if you are just talking clutch playoff performers, he is probably top 10.

I'm talking about currently right now, who are the best 20 players in the league:

KD
Booker
Tatum
Embiid
Joker
Giannis
Luka
Dame
Bam
Haliburton
Curry
SGA
Ant 1
Kawhi
Donovan Mitchell
Mobley
Sabonis
Jimmy Butler
Ja
Jaylen Brown
Trae
Harden
(Lebron)
(AD)
(Zion)


That's 24 players. I put the ones who are health dependent in parentheses but those 3 are also way better provided they play.

So who amongst those players are you putting Kyrie over? Ill give you maybe Harden and Trae but both of their teams would say no to a swap if offered Ky.

Who is he better then out of the players that I listed?

When he's on his game, clutch, playoffs, Bam, Haliburton, Ant, Mobley, Butler, Trae, Harden, Brown, Ja. But one could easily argue in different ways for some of them, but just like people value a guy like Book way more than a guy like Bridges, Kyrie is one of those guys who can score on anyone and is simply one of the best scorers in the NBA. Many of those guys you can say are all around better, but when it comes down to it, rebounding, defense, etc, as important as it is, you need that guy who can get you a bucket when you really need it, and almost no one does that better than Kyrie.

If you are talking like game 7, who do you want to handle the nerves and really step up and be clutch, you could probably name at least 5 others.

Now I do agree no teams would trade any of those guys for him, and there are tons of other players in that boat, but that's because he doesn't play some games and has all his antics.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[NapoleonII]

Kyrie is not top 15. I can easily name 20 players I'd rather have. All are better than Ky. He's great of course but you're going overboard there.

Given everything he isn't, but when he's playing, he probably is. He was ranked between 10 and 15 before his shenanigans, and even for a while after. But given his whole package of what you get from him on and off the court, he isn't, and has therefore dropped into the 20s. But if you are just talking clutch playoff performers, he is probably top 10.

I'm talking about currently right now, who are the best 20 players in the league:

KD
Booker
Tatum
Embiid
Joker
Giannis
Luka
Dame
Bam
Haliburton
Curry
SGA
Ant 1
Kawhi
Donovan Mitchell
Mobley
Sabonis
Jimmy Butler
Ja
Jaylen Brown
Trae
Harden
(Lebron)
(AD)
(Zion)


That's 24 players. I put the ones who are health dependent in parentheses but those 3 are also way better provided they play.

So who amongst those players are you putting Kyrie over? Ill give you maybe Harden and Trae but both of their teams would say no to a swap if offered Ky.

Who is he better then out of the players that I listed?

You also have to account for fit, especially with Luka.

Luka's heliocentric way of playing is Lebron-esque, so I'm taking out SGA, Trae, Harden, Lebron and probably Mitchell, Dame. (I think Joker would fit next to anyone, even himself).

Then I'd take out guys who have never played in the playoffs or are just too young to swing a series (Sabonis, Mobley, Ant).

I'd also still prefer Kyrie's playoff friendly offense over Bam, Haliburton, Brown, and Zion's health. Then I'm pretty on the fence of preferring Kyrie to Butler and Ja.

That leaves me with taking (FOR SURE) KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD.

So yeah, he's still a top 10 guy next to Luka I'd take over most of these players in a series.

I've always considered Kyrie to be a weapon, like a really enchanted item in a video game. You need to be able to wield it (IE, be a floor raiser, carry a franchise, run an offense).

There's a reason why Lebron is the only guy to have cracked the code.

[Slim Charless]

Given everything he isn't, but when he's playing, he probably is. He was ranked between 10 and 15 before his shenanigans, and even for a while after. But given his whole package of what you get from him on and off the court, he isn't, and has therefore dropped into the 20s. But if you are just talking clutch playoff performers, he is probably top 10.

I'm talking about currently right now, who are the best 20 players in the league:

KD
Booker
Tatum
Embiid
Joker
Giannis
Luka
Dame
Bam
Haliburton
Curry
SGA
Ant 1
Kawhi
Donovan Mitchell
Mobley
Sabonis
Jimmy Butler
Ja
Jaylen Brown
Trae
Harden
(Lebron)
(AD)
(Zion)


That's 24 players. I put the ones who are health dependent in parentheses but those 3 are also way better provided they play.

So who amongst those players are you putting Kyrie over? Ill give you maybe Harden and Trae but both of their teams would say no to a swap if offered Ky.

Who is he better then out of the players that I listed?

When he's on his game, clutch, playoffs, Bam, Haliburton, Ant, Mobley, Butler, Trae, Harden, Brown, Ja. But one could easily argue in different ways for some of them, but just like people value a guy like Book way more than a guy like Bridges, Kyrie is one of those guys who can score on anyone and is simply one of the best scorers in the NBA. Many of those guys you can say are all around better, but when it comes down to it, rebounding, defense, etc, as important as it is, you need that guy who can get you a bucket when you really need it, and almost no one does that better than Kyrie.

If you are talking like game 7, who do you want to handle the nerves and really step up and be clutch, you could probably name at least 5 others.

Now I do agree no teams would trade any of those guys for him, and there are tons of other players in that boat, but that's because he doesn't play some games and has all his antics.

Given everything he isn't, but when he's playing, he probably is. He was ranked between 10 and 15 before his shenanigans, and even for a while after. But given his whole package of what you get from him on and off the court, he isn't, and has therefore dropped into the 20s. But if you are just talking clutch playoff performers, he is probably top 10.

I'm talking about currently right now, who are the best 20 players in the league:

KD
Booker
Tatum
Embiid
Joker
Giannis
Luka
Dame
Bam
Haliburton
Curry
SGA
Ant 1
Kawhi
Donovan Mitchell
Mobley
Sabonis
Jimmy Butler
Ja
Jaylen Brown
Trae
Harden
(Lebron)
(AD)
(Zion)


That's 24 players. I put the ones who are health dependent in parentheses but those 3 are also way better provided they play.

So who amongst those players are you putting Kyrie over? Ill give you maybe Harden and Trae but both of their teams would say no to a swap if offered Ky.

Who is he better then out of the players that I listed?

You also have to account for fit, especially with Luka.

Luka's heliocentric way of playing is Lebron-esque, so I'm taking out SGA, Trae, Harden, Lebron and probably Mitchell, Dame. (I think Joker would fit next to anyone, even himself).

Then I'd take out guys who have never played in the playoffs or are just too young to swing a series (Sabonis, Mobley, Ant).

I'd also still prefer Kyrie's playoff friendly offense over Bam, Haliburton, Brown, and Zion's health. Then I'm pretty on the fence of preferring Kyrie to Butler and Ja.

That leaves me with taking (FOR SURE) KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD.

So yeah, he's still a top 10 guy next to Luka I'd take over most of these players in a series.

I've always considered Kyrie to be a weapon, like a really enchanted item in a video game. You need to be able to wield it (IE, be a floor raiser, carry a franchise, run an offense).

There's a reason why Lebron is the only guy to have cracked the code.

No offense guys, but that's a crazy statement. I mean Nap, you think that Kyrie is a better player than Giannis? I can't even take that comment serious lol.

There's no disclaimers and subpoints. I said:

Who's the best player, Kyrie or player (x)

There's no way that any GM- not just the ones that employee said player would ever trade Kyrie for any of the guys that I mentioned. As a player, Kyrie is a very good shot maker and a transcendent dribbler. He's awful at defense and offers minimal ability to be able to get his teammates involved. There's a reason that when the Brooklyn 3 were all actually playing together (rare as that was) it was Harden, not Ky who played the point. That was by design, Harden is the better passer and distributor of the ball and sees the floor significantly better.

You guys wanna bring up the playoffs? Did Jimmy Butler not take a sub-par Heat team to the Finals in the bubble? Did he not almost do the same thing last year against a vastly superior Celtic team? He's 1 of the best big game players in the league. What exactly has Kyrie done since hitting that shot VS the Dubs?

I don't think Kyrie would appear on any GMs list above any of those players...even if you discount his political stuff. He can score. That's it....and virtually everything else he's bad at. Terrible, really.

I sometimes think you guys are trolling me lol.

[lilfishi22]

If you say something like that, you have to back it up. He's (Paul) going to be the target of many teams in the playoffs. So I think there's an obvious weakness and we should be prepared to sit him if he's not getting it done. Can't say much beyond that.

Others have before I had the chance.
But yeah, mainly his defense (he got abused last year, and he is one year and 2 injuries older). But also his shot taking and making - his numbers are dropping. It will be worse in the playoffs against better competition. Sorry. He is basically on the same trajectory than Stockton was after his finals appearance. Not similar, the exact same.

To be fair, he's always been better in the playoffs than in the regular season.

[NapoleonII]

Okay, I forgot Giannis. Geeze, calm down.

Giannis, KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD over Kyrie. This is obvious.

Everyone else?

Yeah, I think Kyrie would likely outplay them IF he has a talented enough 1A who can orchestrate and put up big numbers like Luka.

If I don't have that 1A option, yeah I'd personally take Butler and Ja and SGA (and if I'm rebuilding...probably Zion and Ant but we're not talking about VALUE, we're talking about winning in the playoffs right now)....over Kyrie. But next to Luka or a Lebron? Give me Kyrie.

[lilfishi22]

The more I think about Kyrie, the more I think the Lebron/Kyrie/Love championship trio was more of a flash in the pan than anything. Kyrie has shown he couldn't do it on his own early in his career (not unexpected being a young guy), he burnt bridges in Boston and Brooklyn and now on his 4th stop, it's looking like a more difficult fit than I had anticipated. He's ultra talented but even in the best of circumstances, he somehow finds a way to bring it down.

[lilfishi22]

Okay, I forgot Giannis. Geeze, calm down.

Giannis, KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD over Kyrie. This is obvious.

Everyone else?

Yeah, I think Kyrie would likely outplay them IF he has a talented enough 1A who can orchestrate and put up big numbers like Luka.

If I don't have that 1A option, yeah I'd personally take Butler and Ja and SGA (and if I'm rebuilding...probably Zion and Ant but we're not talking about VALUE, we're talking about winning in the playoffs right now)....over Kyrie. But next to Luka or a Lebron? Give me Kyrie.

Why do you think it hasn't worked so far in Dallas?

[Slim Charless]

The more I think about Kyrie, the more I think the Lebron/Kyrie/Love championship trio was more of a flash in the pan than anything. Kyrie has shown he couldn't do it on his own early in his career (not unexpected being a young guy), he burnt bridges in Boston and Brooklyn and now on his 4th stop, it's looking like a more difficult fit than I had anticipated. He's ultra talented but even in the best of circumstances, he somehow finds a way to bring it down.

Ky is best on a team like he had in BRK. Where he's the #3 guy. That's when he is at his peak form, he's a limited player who has very specific things that's he's good at (elite) and the rest is a negative. He was looking at the 3rd best defender on BRK, and most ppl agreed that the best way to handle that team was to try and stop Harden from distributing with your best defender while dbling KD and just living with Kyrie scoring. I remember numerous sports news online and TV saying something similar.

Kyrie is a 3rd banana on a championship team.

[NapoleonII]

Okay, I forgot Giannis. Geeze, calm down.

Giannis, KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD over Kyrie. This is obvious.

Everyone else?

Yeah, I think Kyrie would likely outplay them IF he has a talented enough 1A who can orchestrate and put up big numbers like Luka.

If I don't have that 1A option, yeah I'd personally take Butler and Ja and SGA (and if I'm rebuilding...probably Zion and Ant but we're not talking about VALUE, we're talking about winning in the playoffs right now)....over Kyrie. But next to Luka or a Lebron? Give me Kyrie.

Why do you think it hasn't worked so far in Dallas?

Defense, defense, defense. And their talent drop-off after Kyrie, which won't cut it in the West. They lack size and talent, a rim protecter and having consistent guys who can stop penetration.

They're 20th in rebounds, 25th in opp FG%, and 28th in contesting shots close to the rim.

And all those numbers are 2/3 of the season when they had DFS who was a key cog, probably their only strong and capable wing defender.

I'm predicting they resign Kyrie, shore up their defense so it's not putrid, and comfortably make the playoffs next year.

[Phystic]

I'm not how, or if we are allowed, to post reddit links. But anyone see that edit on the Suns reddit of the end of avengers infinity war but with Suns players?

[bwgood77]

You also have to account for fit, especially with Luka.

Luka's heliocentric way of playing is Lebron-esque, so I'm taking out SGA, Trae, Harden, Lebron and probably Mitchell, Dame. (I think Joker would fit next to anyone, even himself).

Then I'd take out guys who have never played in the playoffs or are just too young to swing a series (Sabonis, Mobley, Ant).

I'd also still prefer Kyrie's playoff friendly offense over Bam, Haliburton, Brown, and Zion's health. Then I'm pretty on the fence of preferring Kyrie to Butler and Ja.

That leaves me with taking (FOR SURE) KD, Booker, Tatum, Embiid, Jokic, Curry, Kawhi, AD.

So yeah, he's still a top 10 guy next to Luka I'd take over most of these players in a series.

I've always considered Kyrie to be a weapon, like a really enchanted item in a video game. You need to be able to wield it (IE, be a floor raiser, carry a franchise, run an offense).

There's a reason why Lebron is the only guy to have cracked the code.

SGA is tough to put him ahead of, but when you are talking playoffs, SGA doesn't have anything to go by, so I guess in that respect, yes. And in a game 7 or any game facing elimination I take Kyrie over Booker for sure given what we've seen from Book in game 6 vs the Bucks and game 7 vs Dallas. He was flat out terrible in both of those. Kyrie was clutch to knock off the 73 win Warriors.

I'd probably take him over AD, but not over Dame, who has hit AMAZING long shots to win SERIES when it looked like that game was lost. And Mitchell is a monster in the playoffs, but I'd have to look at his performances when facing elimination.

Luka AND Kyrie are probably two of the only players aside from Kawhi and maybe Steph, Dame and Giannis who consistently play even better in the playoffs...and can will teams to victory...refuse to lose. Unfortunately for Luka, he faced Kawhi twice in his first two playoffs (took him to 7 the second time). Then you have KD, who is tougher to gauge. He kind of choked at times in OKC with good teams, but he was playing some good players, the Heat after they had lost to the Mavs the year before, and then GS or SA I think knocked them out a few times...but he never carried a good team on his back to the championship and had to join a championship team with the best record to win. He did have a great series against the Bucks a couple years ago, though couldn't quite pull it off as his best teammates got injured.But really, you have a handful...Luka, Giannis, Steph, Dame, Giannis, KD. I am unsure about Jokic, Embiid in the playoffs as they have lost some playoff series they either shouldn't have, or got swept (though in Joker's defense, his team was really banged up). Embiid blew it against the Hawks a couple years ago.

Butler has stepped up in some games big time in the playoffs, but not super consistently. I have to see more Tatum in the playoffs or go back and review his playoff performances.

I just think a locked in Luka and Kyrie, if they have decent 3 pt shooters around them, is a team that wouldn't be easy to play against in the playoffs. But I don't know what personal issues are going on with Luka and Kyrie is always having personal issues.

[Ghost of Kleine]

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[bwgood77]

Power rankings from espn as the playoffs approach and a short video of Zach Lowe and then Jalen Rose discussing the Suns.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35983099/nba-power-rankings-western-conference-playoff-race-hits-home-stretch

[spanishninja]

I'm not how, or if we are allowed, to post reddit links. But anyone see that edit on the Suns reddit of the end of avengers infinity war but with Suns players?

check page 1 of the game thread

[Phystic]

I'm not how, or if we are allowed, to post reddit links. But anyone see that edit on the Suns reddit of the end of avengers infinity war but with Suns players?

check page 1 of the game thread

Nice! Didn't even notice game thread was there already ha.

Such a great edit

[Phystic]

Power rankings from espn as the playoffs approach and a short video of Zach Lowe and then Jalen Rose discussing the Suns.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/35983099/nba-power-rankings-western-conference-playoff-race-hits-home-stretch

Jalen said what I've been saying for 2 years. DA like most big men stay much more involved when they are involved early and consistently

[sunskerr]

Given everything he isn't, but when he's playing, he probably is. He was ranked between 10 and 15 before his shenanigans, and even for a while after. But given his whole package of what you get from him on and off the court, he isn't, and has therefore dropped into the 20s. But if you are just talking clutch playoff performers, he is probably top 10.

getting a top 15 player isn't really enough to sacrifice what they did, considering they were already a less talented team than us before the respective trades. we got a top 5 player when healthy and the jury is still definitely open when it comes to how much eh will help us.

Kyrie is obviously no KD, but they didn't sacrifice that much, not nearly as much as we did. But losing Brunson since last year was big. Maybe they will miss the playoffs, get really lucky in the lottery and get Victor, or even Scoot or Brandon Miller. Tried a tankathon mock just now and on 2nd try they jumped to second and got Miller.

Yeah, the Brunson loss was absolutely BRUTAL in hindsight!!

24/6 shot creator at the beginning of his prime lost and they were above the cap so they basically lost the ability to use that money. Then they gave up role players to fill that hole with Kyrie.

Then they also gave up Porzingis who is now having the best year of his career. Just so many all star level guys thrown away. The Mavs are doomed imo and if Kyrie leaves then look out for Doncic's exit plan.

[Slim Charless]

getting a top 15 player isn't really enough to sacrifice what they did, considering they were already a less talented team than us before the respective trades. we got a top 5 player when healthy and the jury is still definitely open when it comes to how much eh will help us.

Kyrie is obviously no KD, but they didn't sacrifice that much, not nearly as much as we did. But losing Brunson since last year was big. Maybe they will miss the playoffs, get really lucky in the lottery and get Victor, or even Scoot or Brandon Miller. Tried a tankathon mock just now and on 2nd try they jumped to second and got Miller.

Yeah, the Brunson loss was absolutely BRUTAL in hindsight!!

24/6 shot creator at the beginning of his prime lost and they were above the cap so they basically lost the ability to use that money. Then they gave up role players to fill that hole with Kyrie.

Then they also gave up Porzingis who is now having the best year of his career. Just so many all star level guys thrown away. The Mavs are doomed imo and if Kyrie leaves then look out for Doncic's exit plan.

I think Orlando is a great Luka destination if (when) he demands out. They have a ton of picks and young guys so they won't be depleted after the trade. They also have another 2 lotto picks coming this year, on top of all the other guys they have.