The Race To The Bottom - theBigLip Tank Machine

[Kalamazoo317]

I know folks here love Duren (and I think he's great too) but I think the jury is still significantly out on who's the better prospect longterm between Duren and Wiseman. And there's also a non-absurd world in which they could work together.

Duren by a lot IMO. Duren is arguably better now and he's almost 3 years younger. Duren has more natural athleticism, he has more of that attitude that takes players to greater heights, better defensively although has struggled a bit later in the season and he has one very key attribute that Wiseman lacks which is Basketball IQ. Wiseman has a more refined offensive game right now but, long term, I think Duren will be significantly more valuable.

Duren is younger but has also actually played more minutes than Wiseman as a pro (it's shocking).

[DBC10]

Mostly fair, Mano. But the Bucks without Giannis and Jrue aren’t anywhere near the same team. It’s pretty clear by the injury report and use of minutes that we’re tanking, tho, so it doesn’t matter much.

I like the idea of going against the grain and playing multiple bigs next year. It’s only going to work, tho, if the bigs we play can take advantage of the size difference and not get too hurt by the quickness disadvantage. That’s gonna take mental development from the young bigs, and, to be frank, I have very little confidence in our player development ability right now.

If Wiseman and Bagley can get smarter defensively, if Duren develops, and if Stew gets consistency with his outside shot, it’s a solid group. Awful lot of ifs there, though.

And to go support the skepticism of the "if", all 4 of those bigs have negative net ratings when they're out on the court. Especially so when Bags/Wise is mixed in with a Stew or a Duren. Virtually every lineup that had any of the two bigs together was a flop net rating wise, whereas the inverse of that was true

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?TeamID=1610612765&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=MIN

So I'm hesitant on if they can even perform at a high level that translates to wins since like you said, we're tanking and shut down Bojan whom would have gotten bulk minutes at either forward spot and we would've rotated bigs more often and staggering playing them together sparsely. Even if we had a "quality" loss against the Giannis-less, Jrue-Less Bucks. Can the twin towers lineups work, perhaps but it may only be needed to be deployed in part time rather than full time

Now if we want to start scraping a few more wins next season, first option by far is the best lineup with at least 150+ minutes played as to give weight to the sample. Replace the obvious Bey with someone that can step up and everyone healthy, that can be our hint for starters for the future or at the very least the closing lineup in crunch time. -6 isn't the worst for a team that's not full of talent this season and extremely young. It's a starting point and it can be done

https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*200&GroupQuantity=5&Season=2022-23&TeamID=1610612765&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING

Well of course we're a horrible 16 win team... worst in franchise history type season.

Burks - Bojan - Bey - Ivey - Duren has a net rating of 0.5 in 84 minutes played together
Burks - CoJo - Bey - Bagley - Knox has a net rating of -5.1 in 75 minutes played together
Ivey - Cade - Bojan - Bey Stewart has a net rating of -6.0 in 215 minutes played together
Burks - CoJo - Knox - Bey - Duren has a net rating of -7.8 in 54 minutes played together

Those are OUR FOUR BEST lineups when you look at 5 guys who played more than 30 minutes together this season... Our BEST lineups are still net negative ratings.

I get that, and that was my point. I'm looking at it from a macro oriented view. Our baseline as a team this season is -8 net rating according to bballref. Our best lineups despite the losing season is playing any mix of those top 4 lineups with any credible amount of minutes beating out the negative baseline which can be seen as a net gain. Notice the trend of what type and position of players are on said lineups. (Nix Knox since he's really not good besides that 3 game streak where he got hot)

All others are comparatively worse when Casey starts experimenting with any non conventional lineups. Ergo, no spacing lineups that includes Diallo, Hayes, both of any of the 4 bigs

[Manocad]

Duren to me is still the best prospect of the bigs because he's easily the best leaper and is ferocious under the basket; he goes up strong and tries to thunder dunk everything. That you can't teach; that's just effort. Watching Stew, who can easily dunk, grab an offensive rebound, jump 2 inches for a layup attempt and get blocked was frustrating as hell. Bagley and Wiseman both have very serviceable post games but certainly neither has the ferocity around the hoop that Duren does. That's why I can certainly envision a world where two bigs are operating in the post at the same time; it's been done before, and well.

But they're all still young guys, and that's a good problem to have.

[bstein14]

Pistons are 1-17 since Wiseman joined the team Feb 15th.... and the fact that all four of our "best" net rating lineups included Bey.... is a pretty sure indicator that although Wiseman may have more upside than Bey, Bey certainly was doing more to help his team win this season.

[chrbal]

Pistons are 1-17 since Wiseman joined the team Feb 15th.... and the fact that all four of our "best" net rating lineups included Bey.... is a pretty sure indicator that although Wiseman may have more upside than Bey, Bey certainly was doing more to help his team win this season.

The guy who’s played 65 games starting in 2019/20 leading up to joining the Pistons isn’t carrying the team? I’m in shock right now.

I mean it’s clearly not the roster he’s been playing with

[Billl]

Pistons are 1-17 since Wiseman joined the team Feb 15th.... and the fact that all four of our "best" net rating lineups included Bey.... is a pretty sure indicator that although Wiseman may have more upside than Bey, Bey certainly was doing more to help his team win this season.

Well, we traded bey and shut down bogie, burks and beef stew. And with Cade out, that is 5 of our 6 highest volume 3 point shooters. Really, the only guy left that is even a mild threat from deep is ivey, and at best you could call him respectable. We don't necessarily need Bey (or to pay bey) but you do need shooters to win in the NBA, and right now we don't have any in the lineup.

[theBigLip]

If Bey was still on the team, he would be shut down too. We were tanking no matter what. We finally did it right although now that the lottery odds have changed, it’s still going to be a crapshoot. But worst case 5th pick - we should get a future starter out of this.

[Kilo]

Detroit tanked hard for 5th overall and first pick in the second round.

[bstein14]

Detroit tanked hard for 5th overall and first pick in the second round.

I'm not sure if we have our 2nd round pick or not this year. I know it was traded but I thought maybe we had gotten it back in the Knicks trade.... but perhaps that was a different 2023 2nd rounder I'm not positive where we will get to pick in the 2nd round this year.... I know it was listed that the Pistons were getting a 2023 2nd round pick for taking on Burks and Noel hopefully it is indeed our 2023 2nd round pick back so it ends up being #31 overall.

https://www.nba.com/news/report-knicks-trading-nerlens-noel-alec-burks-to-pistons

If we do indeed end up with pick #31.... hopefully one of Jett Howard(Michigan), Kris Murray(Iowa), or Jalen Wilson(Kansas) end up dropping out of the first round and down to #31.

[NYPiston]

I'm not sure if we have our 2nd round pick or not this year. I know it was traded but I thought maybe we had gotten it back in the Knicks trade.... but perhaps that was a different 2023 2nd rounder I'm not positive where we will get to pick in the 2nd round this year.... I know it was listed that the Pistons were getting a 2023 2nd round pick for taking on Burks and Noel hopefully it is indeed our 2023 2nd round pick back so it ends up being #31 overall.

https://www.nba.com/news/report-knicks-trading-nerlens-noel-alec-burks-to-pistons

If we do indeed end up with pick #31.... hopefully one of Jett Howard(Michigan), Kris Murray(Iowa), or Jalen Wilson(Kansas) end up dropping out of the first round and down to #31.

The Pistons have their 2nd this year, should be some good talent sitting there. Hopefully they don't pass on another Jaden Hardy type talent for another draft and stash guy, still annoyed that they took that random dude last year with Hardy sitting right there for them.

[bstein14]

I'm not sure if we have our 2nd round pick or not this year. I know it was traded but I thought maybe we had gotten it back in the Knicks trade.... but perhaps that was a different 2023 2nd rounder I'm not positive where we will get to pick in the 2nd round this year.... I know it was listed that the Pistons were getting a 2023 2nd round pick for taking on Burks and Noel hopefully it is indeed our 2023 2nd round pick back so it ends up being #31 overall.

https://www.nba.com/news/report-knicks-trading-nerlens-noel-alec-burks-to-pistons

If we do indeed end up with pick #31.... hopefully one of Jett Howard(Michigan), Kris Murray(Iowa), or Jalen Wilson(Kansas) end up dropping out of the first round and down to #31.

The Pistons have their 2nd this year, should be some good talent sitting there. Hopefully they don't pass on another Jaden Hardy type talent for another draft and stash guy, still annoyed that they took that random dude last year with Hardy sitting right there for them.

Yup Hardy was an easy pick, and a miss on our end.... I know our roster space was tight and maybe he wasn't willing to accept a 2 way contract.... but still would have been a nice pickup and a player already better than some of the guys on our roster right now.

Ideal scenario might be to try and trade up into the first by adding a little cash and swapping with a luxury tax team who wants the cheaper more flexible 2nd rounder anyways but we know that Gores hasn't been one to spend any $$$ in transactions.

Like Golden State has the #20 or #21 pick most likely (depending on how this week goes) so what if anything could we do to trade up with them and give them #31 for #21.... like how much would it cost us to move up 10 spots. Miami is also in the luxury tax and could be picking around #18, but I'm sure they would want us to take a contract or include future 2nds.

[Drwho17]

Some of these other rookies have been killing it lately.

In the last 15 games

Banchero = 34mpg, 20.7ppg, 7.3reb, 4.2ast, ts%= 0.534, usg%= 27.7
Jalen Williams = 34mpg, 19.9ppg, 5.6reb, 4.5ast, ts%= 0.654, usg%= 20.3
Kessler = 30mpg, 12.4ppg, 11.3reb, 3.6blk, ts%= 0.711, usg%= 13.5, game_score= 15.5

I know Banchero was never in the cards for us, but to see OKC land a really legit starter type in Jalen Williams with the 12th pick (they sent 3 turd future firsts including our future pick to the Knicks)... Williams is looking like he is at least on par with Ivey as a prospect if not a bid ahead at this point. Of course part of that could be playing next to SGA and perhaps Ivey will have it a bit easier next to Cade next season than he did next to Hayes this season.

OKC didn't trade for Williams, they had the 12th pick going in, they traded for the 11th where they took Dieng.

With the New York Knicks on the clock, looking to shed salary and pursue Jale Brunson, the organization elected to trade the 11th overall pick. Presti swooped in gifting the Knicks three future first-round picks in exchange for the 11th selection while keeping the 12th pick in the 2022 NBA Draft. The Knicks parlayed one of those draft picks in a separate draft day move.

[Drwho17]

Pistons are 1-17 since Wiseman joined the team Feb 15th.... and the fact that all four of our "best" net rating lineups included Bey.... is a pretty sure indicator that although Wiseman may have more upside than Bey, Bey certainly was doing more to help his team win this season.

The guy who’s played 65 games starting in 2019/20 leading up to joining the Pistons isn’t carrying the team? I’m in shock right now.

I mean it’s clearly not the roster he’s been playing with

I don't think he should be starting, while keeping Duren on the bench, that's the only issue I have with him. Let him get experience/learn his craft against bench level players, let Duren play against the starters. Duren is the most advanced and should be the primary big being developed.

[theBigLip]

Tank job complete! Well done Pistons!

[chrbal]

Pistons are 1-17 since Wiseman joined the team Feb 15th.... and the fact that all four of our "best" net rating lineups included Bey.... is a pretty sure indicator that although Wiseman may have more upside than Bey, Bey certainly was doing more to help his team win this season.

The guy who’s played 65 games starting in 2019/20 leading up to joining the Pistons isn’t carrying the team? I’m in shock right now.

I mean it’s clearly not the roster he’s been playing with

I don't think he should be starting, while keeping Duren on the bench, that's the only issue I have with him. Let him get experience/learn his craft against bench level players, let Duren play against the starters. Duren is the most advanced and should be the primary big being developed.

Ok. I was just saying how the record isn’t just because of Wiseman

[MotownMadness]

We did it, it's almost over

[Pharaoh]

Is there a future where Wiseman & Duren can play 25+ minutes together? Both would need to develop better jumpers but it's not impossible

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Kalamazoo317]

Wiseman is a decent shooter out to like 16 feet. Duren ... is great around the basket, lol.

[flow]

Rockets won tonight. We lost, of course. Does this mean we don't have to tank the final 3 games?

[mattao313]

Is there a future where Wiseman & Duren can play 25+ minutes together? Both would need to develop better jumpers but it's not impossible

Sent from my SM-G781B using RealGM Forums mobile app

Why try and force 2 centers to play together? Makes zero sense to play them out of position.

Sent from my SM-A528B using RealGM mobile app