Greatest Offensive 3 Year Spans Of All Time By A Player

[KobesScarf]

1. 66-68 Wilt
2. Tie between 85-87 Bird and 87-89 Magic
3. 98-00 Shaq

[rk2023]

1. 66-68 Wilt
2. Tie between 85-87 Bird and 87-89 Magic
3. 98-00 Shaq

Having a hard time seeing Wilt in this level. If he was in this particular conversation on offense, I think he would have the best peak in history by a long shot with how good his defense was.

[OhayoKD]

Who are you candidates? Best consecutive 3 year offensive runs?

So the last time I faced a question like this I responded like so:

I like Magic the most and I might prefer slightly Jordan over James for sustained peaks (like, 5 straight years). So for a brief response, I'd go with Magic/Jordan/James probably, but to explain it, I would have to spend hours to do a fair job.

Yeah I think with a 5 year cut-off Jordan gets a strong case(88-92?). 16-18 may be the best 3 year stretch of anyone(I am willing to hear either the mj or, the less often made, magic case(i would very much like to read a strong magic argument)), but 2015 his offense drops(defense somewhat compensates) and 2019 is an off-year. 2011 nukes 09-13.

Very much ignorant on Magic, but he seems to have done the best against the pistons(much better than 2 other players in the same conversation), generate better o-results throughout his prime(not comfortable assessing "help" yet).

Considering the level of team success(and fwiw he posts higher wowyr) he had while operating at a disadvantage vs jordan and a bigger disadvantage vs lebron on defense, on a surface-level look i might favor Magic over both on o.

I wasn't looking too deep into skillsets/isolated value and really just focused on team-results(Lebron-led offense arguably do the best in the playoffs, but lag in the regular season, Jordan's offenses are strong in the rs but lag in the playoffs, and Magic's seem to have the best of both)

While I still lean towards Magic, I now see clearer differentiation between the other two.

We've talked about how box-aggregates skew defensively towards steal-accumulators, but are there gaps in how they assess offense?

According to box-stuff, Lebron and Jordan are way ahead of Magic offensively(Kareem is competitive in certain frames). This is pretty wierd considering
1. Magic has led better offenses
2. Available data consistently paints Magic as the "impact king" of his time despite defensive deficits vs Bird, Jordan, and Hakeem

These aggregates also seem to disagree with the real-world about Nash(leader of the greatest offenses ever) and, to an extent, Lebron(2009/2010 and 2015-2018 in paticular look alot crazier with a "winning" based approach. Miami looks all-time and is Lebron's situational nadir).

I suspect the discrepancy primarily comes from an inability to account for "orchestration" and "playmaking". I've brought the former up a bunch recently, but for posterity...

Highly reminiscent of what Phil wrote in Eleven Rings about Scottie being the quarterback and middle linebacker for offense and defense, being the guy who bore mental load of running the offense and getting people in their spots on defense and directing people. This allowed MJ to singularly focus on getting buckets as well as following his own defensive plan alongside the common Jordan steal improvisations. When you play, it can't be overstated how draining and constricting it is to be the guy responsible for the majority of the communication on the floor for one end, let alone both ends.

What I think hasn't gotten enough attention here is playmaking, or more specifically, "quality of playmaking":

Overall, Kobe’s rate of “good” passes in my sample was around 3 per 100. For comparison, Jordan was at 2 per 100 and an all-timer like Nash over 8 per 100.8

As a result of his increased primacy and evolved court vision, LeBron’s creation rates jumped from about 11 per 100 to a whopping 14 per 100, just short of the highest rates ever estimated. In my sampling, his quality passes leapt into the upper stratosphere, reaching Nash-like frequencies with a “good” pass on 8 percent of his possessions.

From Ben's film-tracking(and even if we look at something like passer-rating as opposed to tunnelling on the "quantity" of shot-creating actions), there's actually a large gap between the creation quality of top-end passers(Magic, Nash, Lebron) and second-tier ones(Kobe, Wade, Jordan). While "raw" creation numbers may look similar, but when we account for the value of different passes, a significant delta emerges.

Pair this with in-game coaching and ball-handling(Nash, Magic, and Lebron were all orchestrators and primary ball-handlers), and I think we have an explanation for why "winning" disagrees with "box".

For what it's worth, we get corroboration when we look at these guys "pre-prime" with Nash leading goat-level offenses before hitting his stride in Pheonix...

In Year Two of the prime Nash-Nowitzki show, Dallas ascended to a dynastic level on offense. The Mavs finished with the sixth-best rORtg in league history (+7.7), followed by the 16th-best in ’03 (+7.1) and then in ’04 became the only offense in NBA history 9 points better than league average for a full season (+9.2).

That Mavericks four-year run of offense was the best in NBA history, averaging +7 efficiency during the stretch.

...and lebron leading his first great offense(in the absence of 3-point specialists) as he was turning 21:

Regardless, using your "full-strength" derivation, I'm not sure, it, as you say, "has a meaning", considering that still puts 21/22 and 23/24 year-old MJ led-offense significantly behind what Lebron led at 20/21(2006, 35 game sample, Bron has a birthday, Ben decides to say Lebron is 19 in 05, BBR says he's 20 ). And here, I'll admit, I did lie. Checking Ben's write-up, that full-strength offense wasn't +5, it was +6.6, coming off a +2.3 offense(2005, 70 game sample) with 19/20 year old Lebron, and a +4.9 jump(+6 overall!) with Lebron at 18/19. Was that all Lebron? No. But even with a generous adjustment(take Boozer's 31-game without sample from the season after and pretend he wasn't on the 03 Cavs), we're around +2(+4 overall) with teenage Bron.

For comparison, here was the best sample I've seen for pre-prime Mike(full response is taking time ):

Hmm... Interesting how being at full strength doesn't seem to matter. Well if you do decide it matters again in 29 games with Dave Greenwood and without Caldwell Jones the Bulls had a 112.5 ORTG (+4.6) and MJ, as a rookie, averaged 29.9/7.7/6.6 on 60 TS% with an extraordinarily high for MJ (rookie problems I guess) 13 TOV%

Frankly, the 85 sample is very, very questionable(Balla basically just flips an 8-minuite distribution between the 5th and 7th highest mpg games in a stretch were the team didn't improve overall), but whatever. Even juiced, an older Jordan isn't reaching the same highs. In fact, even peak Jordan doesn't get there until the triangle is established(and Pippen ends up taking over ball-handling, "orchestration", and splitting creative duties):

You can look at his full powered offenses other seasons of you want to as well. For example in 1988 after trading for Sam Vincent they had a 112.4 ORTG (+4.4). We don't have to downplay Jordan or act as if his achievements aren't as impressive by using unequal criteria. Let your argument stand on its own.

FWIW, unlike 85, the 88 Bulls actually do improve with this change-up(50-wins become 53-wins), but Jordan is still not leading comparable teams either offensively(or overall) until he's asked to do significantly less than the other popular "Offensive GOAT" candidates.

Ditto for Bird who never replicated the top-end results despite taking on even less ball-handling than Mike.

Ditto for Curry who was firmly second tier in rs offensive value until he split his creative load with Draymond.

And Ditto for Shaq who was basically never a lead-playmaker and still wasn't able to lead comparable offenses(excepting an 8-year time frame).

Maybe Jokic, someone who carries an unprecedented combination of post-prowess, scoring versatility and goat-level passing will prove the exception to the norm, but I really don't see any reason to think guys who do less are on par with the guys who do more.

"Portability" is the most popular counter but, with the possible exception of Nash, the helios seem to see their impact translate very, very well with the "delegators" lacking any real empirical advantage outside of badly supported hypotheticals(ironically, curry, bird, and jordan all seem to see their signals drop significantly as their team gets better). Maybe you could argue this for Shaq, but he has basically nothing putting him on par with the top-tiers individually besides an aesthetic impression of "dominance".

All that said, I'm inclined to value playmaking more than I did before. Using a strictly era-relative lens my list of "greatest 3-year offensive stretches" goes(not including Jokic and Luka yet):

Tier 1
1. 88-90 Magic
2. 63-65 Oscar
3. 16-18 Lebron
4. 05-07 Nash

Tier 2
5. 88-90 Jordan
6. 77-79 Kareem
7. 66-68 West
8. 2000-2002 Shaq
9. 2015-2017 Curry
10. 08-10 Kobe
11. 84-86 Bird

Tier 3
12. 09-11 Dirk
13. 05-07 Wade
14. 18-20 Harden
15. 75-77 Erving
16. 16-18 Durant
17. 16-18 Westbrook
18. 08-10 Chris Paul
19. 94-96 Miller
20. 89-91 Barkley

Depending on what transpires the next few years, I think Jokic could land anywhere between 1 and the bottom of tier 2. I'd put Luka's ceiling just as high but I could also see him dropping to the bottom of tier 3.

While I think both are firmly tier 1 in a vacuum, I don't know that necessarily holds in an era-relative comparison(I'm confident it doesn't for Steph).

Does that answer your question?

[KobesScarf]

1. 66-68 Wilt
2. Tie between 85-87 Bird and 87-89 Magic
3. 98-00 Shaq

Having a hard time seeing Wilt in this level. If he was in this particular conversation on offense, I think he would have the best peak in history by a long shot with how good his defense was.

Yes. Wilt's 67 season is the best season in not only NBA history but in any professional team sport.

[ardee]

My top 10 is:

1. 2016-18 LeBron
2. 1990-92 Jordan
3. 1989-91 Magic
4. 2005-07 Nash
5. 2015-17 Curry (if he has a tremendous Playoffs this year 21-23 might be considered)
6. 1985-87 Bird
7. 2021-23 Jokic
8. 2000-02 Shaq
9. 2006-08 Kobe
10. 2009-11 Dirk

[70sFan]

My top 10 is:

1. 2016-18 LeBron
2. 1990-92 Jordan
3. 1989-91 Magic
4. 2005-07 Nash
5. 2015-17 Curry (if he has a tremendous Playoffs this year 21-23 might be considered)
6. 1985-87 Bird
7. 2021-23 Jokic
8. 2000-02 Shaq
9. 2006-08 Kobe
10. 2009-11 Dirk

Do you think it's fair to have no player from the first 35 years of the league existance there?

[ardee]

My top 10 is:

1. 2016-18 LeBron
2. 1990-92 Jordan
3. 1989-91 Magic
4. 2005-07 Nash
5. 2015-17 Curry (if he has a tremendous Playoffs this year 21-23 might be considered)
6. 1985-87 Bird
7. 2021-23 Jokic
8. 2000-02 Shaq
9. 2006-08 Kobe
10. 2009-11 Dirk

Do you think it's fair to have no player from the first 35 years of the league existance there?

Oscar, West and Kareem are in my 11-15 range and all have cases for the top 10 imo.

I try and use a combination of "goodness" and impact in a vacuum + in-era dominance, so that's how I feel they grade out. If I went just by in-era dominance it's hard to say George Mikan doesn't have a case for GOAT.

[70sFan]

My top 10 is:

1. 2016-18 LeBron
2. 1990-92 Jordan
3. 1989-91 Magic
4. 2005-07 Nash
5. 2015-17 Curry (if he has a tremendous Playoffs this year 21-23 might be considered)
6. 1985-87 Bird
7. 2021-23 Jokic
8. 2000-02 Shaq
9. 2006-08 Kobe
10. 2009-11 Dirk

Do you think it's fair to have no player from the first 35 years of the league existance there?

Oscar, West and Kareem are in my 11-15 range and all have cases for the top 10 imo.

I try and use a combination of "goodness" and impact in a vacuum + in-era dominance, so that's how I feel they grade out. If I went just by in-era dominance it's hard to say George Mikan doesn't have a case for GOAT.

I don't think Mikan would be in GOAT conversation for offensive players even in era-relative question.

Stil struggle to see Shaq's clear advantage over Kareem. I guess Kobe, West and Oscar are relatively close, though I am not as high on Dirk as you are.

[rk2023]

A more analytically-driven post from a great poster & friend of mine. In the context of the original post alluding to offensive goat convo and where Jokic is amidst all of this, I feel pragmatic evidence with a PS emphasis paints Johnson, Jordan, James as offensive co-goats with a more lenient and lax definition. Jokic still has a lot left in the tank, but this is some good comp and food for thought for what an "O-Goat" case may look like.

In terms of average prime level in terms of offensive value generated, I might go:

Magic
MJ
Lebron

However, if we do in terms of average prime level in terms of "goodness," (so we see them in different situations), I might go in the exact opposite order.

Lebron
MJ
Magic

The reason being, I think Lebron's offensive value was notably muted in Miami versus some of his roles in Cleveland where he functioned more like a PG. This doesn't mean, that Lebron wasn't still extremely good offensively in Miami...he was, however, I believe his overall creation and playmaking value took a dip when playing next to Wade.

Jordan and especially Magic are often cited for being among the GOATs offensively because of his offenses, but I think Lebron has a strong case even when looking at things from that lense.

Looking at PS rORTG since the 60s per Backpicks, Lebron's teams have 1 spot in the top 5 and 2 spots in the top 10. Magic's Lakers (86-87) have 1 entry in the top 20.

PS offensive ratings can be noisy because of small sample sizes but depending on the range you use, it still shows Lebron leading better offenses. For example, Lebron's Cavs-Heat years topped the Magic's Lakers and Jordan's Bulls in 8-year PS offense.

https://thinkingbasketball.net/2018/04/08/backpicks-goat-2-michael-jordan/

To me this is noteworthy, because when we are talking greatest offensive players of all-time, a 8 year stretch is good enough to capture someone's prime while not being a long enough span to veer into the territory of longevity (which Magic lacks). Lebron could be argued to have led better offenses throughout his career.

If you look at shorter peak PS stretches such as single year or 3-year PS stretches, I think once again, Lebron comes out looking stronger. According Backpicks, the 2015-17 Cavs have the 3rd best unique offensive PS stretch for relative offensive rating, and keep in mind Lebron did not have a healthy Kyrie or KLove for much of the 2015 PS. This once again surpasses the Bulls and Lakers' offensive performance, and reinforces the idea that Lebron at the PG is probably best served for exerting his full impact.

If you don't like using relative offensive rating to judge playoff offense, there is another method called common offensive rating.
Common offensive rating is comparing a team’s postseason play to other teams against that same given opponent (for that particular PS). The rORTG is also listed on the side too for those who, where a team’s playoff offensive rating is compared to it’s opponent’s regular season defensive ratings. The Cavs have the best common offensive rating of the time period.

The best 3-year offenses and defense (minimum of 20 games played across three postseason trips), we see the following unique team peaks in playoff offense per common offensive rating (cORTG) via Backpicks since 1984 (but only other potential contenders would be if you go back to Mikan days).

Team Year cORTG rORTG
CLE 2015-17 13.0 9.5


MIA 2012-14 9.7 8.7

LAL 1987-89 9.4 9


CHI 1991-93 8.8 8.4

CHI 1994-96 8.3 6.9

Lebron's offenses come out looking better under this approach as well. The 2016 Cavs (+15.3 cORTG) and 2017 Cavs (+14.6) have the two highest single-season offensive marks using this approach. Under the 3-year guise, the Cavs would be at least #1 going back to 1984.

Now, the question might be, "how do we know Lebron had the capacity in Miami to elevate offenses to better heights in Miami then he showed?"

While, YOU DO NOT want to take the numbers at face value, and want to keep in mind we don't always know what players Lebron was facing with Wade off, we see a drastic spike in Lebron's floor-raising performance without Wade on the court.

Right. And in mind my, whose to say that Lebron was stiff in adapting his game. Lebron certainly had more aggression as a scorer when Wade was out.

LeBron in the playoffs with Wade off the court from 2012-14:

▫️ 36.5 PTS/75 on 65.2 TS%
▫️ 7.7 REB/75 and 7.8 AST/75
▫️ Led a +18.1 NRTG outside of garbage time
(stats opponent and inflation adjusted)

And if you want a bigger sample size that has the RS:

12-'14 Lebron without Wade on the floor:

34.4 IA PTS/75 (4th Ever)
+9.5 rTS%
7.2 IA AST/75
39.5% from 3
67.7 Points Generated (2nd Ever)

(3700 Minutes Played Sample)

If you look at Lebron's offensive box-score metrics at face-value, on average he comes out ahead of Magic but BEHIND MJ. Though, I would once again argue the metrics show his value was lesser than Jordan but I'm not arguing Lebron's average offensive prime year was as valuable as Jordan, but rather shifting Lebron and Jordan to a variety of other teams (specifically where Lebron handles the ball more), would show Lebron to be better than his Miami numbers.

I would argue Lebron meshed decently well with Chris Bosh, someone who was a floor-spacer and could be a role man, opening up driving lanes for Lebron. I think Lebron and Wade's styles clashed a bit, to the point where even though they both were good, their offensive impact isn't what it would be in many other situations.

Of course, I could be gauging things incorrectly, and not penalizing Lebron enough for his box-score production not being as great with Wade on. However, I just feel like more times than not, Lebron can elevate great enough variety of teams around the league, that his offensive impact would overall be greater.

My final piece of evidence for my belief that Lebron at the PG position being able to have more value than perhaps Magic and MJ is by just looking at his peak in all-in-one metrics. As I mentioned, MJ on average grades out better offensively than Lebron in an average prime year.

However, if you look at single season peaks (and PS peaks for the metrics that have PS only component) in the following metrics:

O-BPM
Backpicks O-BPM
O-PIPM
O-RAPTOR
O-TWPR
Crafted OPM

Lebron actually surpasses Jordan in all of them, which is perhaps suggestive of the idea that Lebron can elevate teams to special heights with the ball in his hands.

Finally, I would probably give the edge to MJ over Magic in terms of offensive goodness due to being less reliant on his teammates to finish offensive possessions to accrue value. This could be the wrong thinking, but that is where my head is at.

[MyUniBroDavis]

1. 66-68 Wilt
2. Tie between 85-87 Bird and 87-89 Magic
3. 98-00 Shaq

Having a hard time seeing Wilt in this level. If he was in this particular conversation on offense, I think he would have the best peak in history by a long shot with how good his defense was.

Yes. Wilt's 67 season is the best season in not only NBA history but in any professional team sport.

The first part is already controversial but come on lmao

[ty 4191]

1. 66-68 Wilt
2. Tie between 85-87 Bird and 87-89 Magic
3. 98-00 Shaq

Not sure why Wilt 66'-68' isn't getting more traction here. Can someone explain what he's lacking offensively?

One point of reference regarding efficiency: The FG% in NBA history by someone not named Wilt was .519 to that point (Walt Bellamy, 61'-62'). The all time record was by Wilt himself in 1965-1966 with .540.

He then upped it to .683 in 66'-67' while leading what most considered (of that era) to be the greatest team of all time. And, did this (click on the Tweet to see the full screenshot/stats):

Read on Twitter

Per Ben Taylor/Backpicks, Wilt did this putting up an absurd +14.4 rTS, 100th percentile in OBPM, 99th percentile in ScoreVal, and 97th percentile in PlayVal, and 81st percentile in Passer Rating, which was almost totally unheard of in that era for centers.

He sandwiched 1966-1967 between two other awesome seasons in 1965-1966 and 1967-1968. Again, per Backpicks, he beat all centers in OBPM, Passer Rating, etc. those years by a huge margin while winning 3 consecutive MVPs.

[capfan33]

Do you think it's fair to have no player from the first 35 years of the league existance there?

Oscar, West and Kareem are in my 11-15 range and all have cases for the top 10 imo.

I try and use a combination of "goodness" and impact in a vacuum + in-era dominance, so that's how I feel they grade out. If I went just by in-era dominance it's hard to say George Mikan doesn't have a case for GOAT.

I don't think Mikan would be in GOAT conversation for offensive players even in era-relative question.

Stil struggle to see Shaq's clear advantage over Kareem. I guess Kobe, West and Oscar are relatively close, though I am not as high on Dirk as you are.

There's a decent case to be made that individual offensive impact was muted pre-3point line so if you're only going by in-era impact guys' early NBA gets downgraded as a result. So I can see it from that perspective.

[Gregoire]

In order:
89-91 Jordan
15-17 Curry
84-86 Bird
87-89 Magic
16-18 Lebron
05-07 Nash
09-11 Dirk
21-23 Jokic
06-08 Kobe

[rk2023]

In order:
89-91 Jordan
15-17 Curry
84-86 Bird
87-89 Magic
16-18 Lebron
05-07 Nash
09-11 Dirk
21-23 Jokic
06-08 Kobe

Saw your answer to both 1 and 3 year variants.

Just curious as to where you see Oscar and West, and how open you would be to considering them at or near this fraternity of names. West being able to consistently ramp up production and challenge Boston (proof of his scoring resiliency) with varying levels of support really impresses me.

Robertson’s almost guaranteed #1 offenses along with how he re-set the bar for scoring and passing efficacy has me feeling the same way too.

Durability is a concern for West, but fully healthy I see their value very similar to Bird and O’Neal (slightly over say Bryant and Nowitzki) for example.

[ardee]

Do you think it's fair to have no player from the first 35 years of the league existance there?

Oscar, West and Kareem are in my 11-15 range and all have cases for the top 10 imo.

I try and use a combination of "goodness" and impact in a vacuum + in-era dominance, so that's how I feel they grade out. If I went just by in-era dominance it's hard to say George Mikan doesn't have a case for GOAT.

I don't think Mikan would be in GOAT conversation for offensive players even in era-relative question.

Stil struggle to see Shaq's clear advantage over Kareem. I guess Kobe, West and Oscar are relatively close, though I am not as high on Dirk as you are.

The advantage Shaq has over Kareem offensively is his ability to get entire frontlines into foul trouble. From '71-'80, Kareem's prime, he had a FT rate of .321. From '94-'03, Shaq's prime, he had one of .557.

That's a very, very impactful difference. When your opponent needs to pull their best players because they're constantly picking up fouls trying to stop you, it puts your team in a much stronger position.

[70sFan]

Oscar, West and Kareem are in my 11-15 range and all have cases for the top 10 imo.

I try and use a combination of "goodness" and impact in a vacuum + in-era dominance, so that's how I feel they grade out. If I went just by in-era dominance it's hard to say George Mikan doesn't have a case for GOAT.

I don't think Mikan would be in GOAT conversation for offensive players even in era-relative question.

Stil struggle to see Shaq's clear advantage over Kareem. I guess Kobe, West and Oscar are relatively close, though I am not as high on Dirk as you are.

The advantage Shaq has over Kareem offensively is his ability to get entire frontlines into foul trouble. From '71-'80, Kareem's prime, he had a FT rate of .321. From '94-'03, Shaq's prime, he had one of .557.

That's a very, very impactful difference. When your opponent needs to pull their best players because they're constantly picking up fouls trying to stop you, it puts your team in a much stronger position.

I am aware of that advantage and I agree it's a significant one. The question remains - if this (along with offensive rebounding) negates all the advantages Kareem has over Shaq?

[ardee]

I don't think Mikan would be in GOAT conversation for offensive players even in era-relative question.

Stil struggle to see Shaq's clear advantage over Kareem. I guess Kobe, West and Oscar are relatively close, though I am not as high on Dirk as you are.

The advantage Shaq has over Kareem offensively is his ability to get entire frontlines into foul trouble. From '71-'80, Kareem's prime, he had a FT rate of .321. From '94-'03, Shaq's prime, he had one of .557.

That's a very, very impactful difference. When your opponent needs to pull their best players because they're constantly picking up fouls trying to stop you, it puts your team in a much stronger position.

I am aware of that advantage and I agree it's a significant one. The question remains - if this (along with offensive rebounding) negates all the advantages Kareem has over Shaq?

I mean, they're fairly close in everything else with Kareem having a notable lead in FT%. They're close as pure scorers and passers (I'm talking peaks here, for careers obviously Kareem is better at both). Both have excellent records against tough Playoff defenses.

[70sFan]

The advantage Shaq has over Kareem offensively is his ability to get entire frontlines into foul trouble. From '71-'80, Kareem's prime, he had a FT rate of .321. From '94-'03, Shaq's prime, he had one of .557.

That's a very, very impactful difference. When your opponent needs to pull their best players because they're constantly picking up fouls trying to stop you, it puts your team in a much stronger position.

I am aware of that advantage and I agree it's a significant one. The question remains - if this (along with offensive rebounding) negates all the advantages Kareem has over Shaq?

I mean, they're fairly close in everything else with Kareem having a notable lead in FT%. They're close as pure scorers and passers (I'm talking peaks here, for careers obviously Kareem is better at both). Both have excellent records against tough Playoff defenses.

Kareem was significantly more efficient isolation scorer and had far more range. He didn't have weaknesses Shaq had.

[capfan33]

I am aware of that advantage and I agree it's a significant one. The question remains - if this (along with offensive rebounding) negates all the advantages Kareem has over Shaq?

I mean, they're fairly close in everything else with Kareem having a notable lead in FT%. They're close as pure scorers and passers (I'm talking peaks here, for careers obviously Kareem is better at both). Both have excellent records against tough Playoff defenses.

Kareem was significantly more efficient isolation scorer and had far more range. He didn't have weaknesses Shaq had.

I think Kareem is also a good tier better as a passer even though I wouldn't say it's a huge difference.

[tsherkin]

18-20 Cauley-Stein

Pardon?