Top 20 Offensive Player Peaks

[AEnigma]

Deron was really nice at his peak, just gets forgotten because of how quickly/hard he fell off. I'm curious, do you think he was better than CP3 at his best? Like would you draft him over CP3 for a season?

Overall, no, but if I were trying to build the best offence, I think he at least has a case. I like his passing more than Paul’s, and I think there are team builds where you could make better use of his driving even though Paul is an overall better scorer.

And look, lost to time a bit now, and pure eye-tests only go so far, but a big reason Deron was placed alongside Paul’s at the time was that when those two matched up head-to-head (before Deron faded out), Deron was the guy who consistently seemed to have the advantage. Deron also seemed to be more reliable in the postseason during that period. Those memories tend to stick once you have them, even if many can argue and have argued that Paul was at his overall best with the Clippers (in which case those Hornets years stop being relevant to the comparison).

[Colbinii]

You know whats crazy? Deron was consistently putting up 114-115 offenses while on the court from 2008-2010 [A nice 3 year peak] but Steve Nash, in the same period, was putting up 117-118 offenses.

[Gregoire]

1. Jordan 91
2. Magic 87
3. Curry 17
4. Bird 86
5. Lebron 13/Nash 05
6. Shaq 00
7. Jokic 22
8. Kareem 77
9. Kobe 08
10. Dirk 11/Barkley 90

[Top10alltime]

Alright, here is my very rough attempt to create an ordered list:

1. 1990 Magic Johnson
2. 2007 Steve Nash
3. 1991 Michael Jordan
4. 2018 LeBron James
5. 1963 Oscar Robertson
6. 2017 Steph Curry
7. 2022 Nikola Jokic
8. 1966 Jerry West
9. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. 1986 Larry Bird
11. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
12. 2008 Kobe Bryant
13. 2009 Dwyane Wade
14. 2015 Chris Paul
15. 2020 James Harden
16. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
17. 1990 Charles Barkley
18. 2017 Kevin Durant
19. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
20. 1982 Moses Malone

Something like that, although I am not very satisfied about the results.

Don't understand at all, why Oscar would be ahead of peak offensive Curry, which is 2015-16. Even though Oscar was a better PM by a fair margin, Steph absolutely wipes Oscar in scoring with having the GOAT RS scoring season in NBA history.

I don't see the case here.

[Elpolo_14]

For my top 20 offensive peak ( 1yr peak and another year I think it in contention )

TIER 1 ( GOAT )
1. STEVE NASH ( 05 / 07 )
2. MAGIC ( 87 / 90 )
3. LEJUAN JAMES ( 17 / 18 )
4. MICHAEL JORDAN ( 90 / 91 )

TIER 2 ( SUB - GOAT "Arguable T'1 " )
5. STEPH CURRY ( 16 / 17 )
6. NIKOLA JOKIC ( 23 / 25 )
7. OSCAR ( 63 / 64 )
8. SHAQ ( 98 / 00 )
9. KAREEM ( 74 / 77 )

TIER 3 ( All time Great )
10. Jerry West ( 65 / 66 )
11. James Harden ( 19 / 20 )
12. SGA ( 25 )
13. Chris Paul ( 08 / 15 )
14. Kobe Bryant ( 06 / 07 )
15. Luka ( 24 )
16. KD ( 14 / 17 )
17. Dirk ( 06 / 11 )
18. Charles Barkley ( 89 / 90 )

TIER 4 ( OPOY level )
19. Wilt Chamberlain ( 64 / 67 )
20. Rick Barry ( 67 )
21. Larry BIRD ( 86 / 87 )
22. Dwyane Wade ( 09 / 10 )
23. Reggie Miller ( 94 / 95 )
24. Moses Malone ( 81 / 83 )
25. Karl Malone ( 97 / 98 )
26. Westbrook ( 16 / 17 )

I could have forgotten some player but the overall list would be like this

[Elpolo_14]

Alright, here is my very rough attempt to create an ordered list:

1. 1990 Magic Johnson
2. 2007 Steve Nash
3. 1991 Michael Jordan
4. 2018 LeBron James
5. 1963 Oscar Robertson
6. 2017 Steph Curry
7. 2022 Nikola Jokic
8. 1966 Jerry West
9. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. 1986 Larry Bird
11. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
12. 2008 Kobe Bryant
13. 2009 Dwyane Wade
14. 2015 Chris Paul
15. 2020 James Harden
16. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
17. 1990 Charles Barkley
18. 2017 Kevin Durant
19. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
20. 1982 Moses Malone

Something like that, although I am not very satisfied about the results.

Don't understand at all, why Oscar would be ahead of peak offensive Curry, which is 2015-16. Even though Oscar was a better PM by a fair margin, Steph absolutely wipes Oscar in scoring with having the GOAT RS scoring season in NBA history.

I don't see the case here.

The Case can be made. Onball Playmaker are generally more Valuable on offense than OFFball Playmaker due to it being organized by the main offense force of the team ( aka. Oscar in this situation ). With Oscar being a better on ball playmaking with all the facility traits ( vision / passing and more )that come with it made his Offense less Depended on another teammates to help him initiating the offense or Facilliting by being the ball bringer / advantage extender ( aka. Draymond in Steph Situation )and Oscar can create Opportunities + Deliver them himself so the advantage can be Capitalized as fast as possible so less Prone to another teammates bad/Slow decision making . ( The best opportunity are mostly create by the Main onball offense court awareness to deliver the pass at the right moment/time )

Also as Scorer Curry is better than undeniable. But it not like Oscar was a Fraud on that either.
OSCAR in 1963 was scoring 28.6PPG on +9.5rTS in a league with only interior Scoring and Soft Midrange ( so it make the paint very packed ). I know it a Faster Pace league but With how the game advantage the Big man. I can't say he benefits much from that

[falcolombardi]

Shai definitely belongs in a top 20 quite easily at this point

[Top10alltime]

Alright, here is my very rough attempt to create an ordered list:

1. 1990 Magic Johnson
2. 2007 Steve Nash
3. 1991 Michael Jordan
4. 2018 LeBron James
5. 1963 Oscar Robertson
6. 2017 Steph Curry
7. 2022 Nikola Jokic
8. 1966 Jerry West
9. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. 1986 Larry Bird
11. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
12. 2008 Kobe Bryant
13. 2009 Dwyane Wade
14. 2015 Chris Paul
15. 2020 James Harden
16. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
17. 1990 Charles Barkley
18. 2017 Kevin Durant
19. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
20. 1982 Moses Malone

Something like that, although I am not very satisfied about the results.

Don't understand at all, why Oscar would be ahead of peak offensive Curry, which is 2015-16. Even though Oscar was a better PM by a fair margin, Steph absolutely wipes Oscar in scoring with having the GOAT RS scoring season in NBA history.

I don't see the case here.

The Case can be made. Onball Playmaker are generally more Valuable on offense than OFFball Playmaker due to it being organized by the main offense force of the team ( aka. Oscar in this situation ). With Oscar being a better on ball playmaking with all the facility traits ( vision / passing and more )that come with it made his Offense less Depended on another teammates to help him initiating the offense or Facilliting by being the ball bringer / advantage extender ( aka. Draymond in Steph Situation )and Oscar can create Opportunities + Deliver them himself so the advantage can be Capitalized as fast as possible so less Prone to another teammates bad/Slow decision making . ( The best opportunity are mostly create by the Main onball offense court awareness to deliver the pass at the right moment/time )

Also as Scorer Curry is better than undeniable. But it not like Oscar was a Fraud on that either.
OSCAR in 1963 was scoring 28.6PPG on +9.5rTS in a league with only interior Scoring and Soft Midrange ( so it make the paint very packed ). I know it a Faster Pace league but With how the game advantage the Big man. I can't say he benefits much from that

If I'm not wrong, Steph had good on-ball playmaking as well (although he relied on his off ball more), so it's like Oscar's scoring: he's not a fraud on that end. And if you watch the 60s, you see you have weaker teammates do more, in a faster paced era. And yeah Oscar create opportunities but again, the 60s had weaker players doing more in a faster paced era, although Oscar was the strongest out of all them.

And faster paced era (we don't have how many possessions they were in per game), we have to adjust.
Oscar has 22.4 IA pts/75 on +9.5 rTS
Steph has 33.1 IA pts/75 on +12.8 rTS

Steph absolutely wipes Oscar in scoring and it is not even close here(GOAT RS scoring ever). The scoring gap is much larger than PM gap here..
I will say Oscar has the edge in PO, because Steph was injured. But if Steph wasn't injured, we might have seen the greatest offensive season in NBA history. But as it is, Steph was injured, and he still beats out Oscar.

[Djoker]

Top 20 isn't easy to do but here we go. Since the shot clock so 1955-present.

1. 1991 Jordan
2. 2017 Curry
3. 1987 Magic
4. 2013 Lebron
5. 1964 Oscar
6. 2007 Nash
7. 2023 Jokic
8. 1977 Kareem
9. 2000 Shaq
10. 2006 Kobe
11. 1986 Bird
12. 1969 West
13. 2009 Wade
14. 1967 Wilt
15. 1995 Hakeem
16. 1990 Barkley
17. 2006 Dirk
18. 2017 Durant
19. 2019 Kawhi
20. 2025 SGA

HM: 1997 Malone, 1984 Thomas, 2008 Paul, 2024 Luka

[Top10alltime]

For my top 20 offensive peak ( 1yr peak and another year I think it in contention )

TIER 1 ( GOAT )
1. STEVE NASH ( 05 / 07 )
2. MAGIC ( 87 / 90 )
3. LEJUAN JAMES ( 17 / 18 )
4. MICHAEL JORDAN ( 90 / 91 )

TIER 2 ( SUB - GOAT "Arguable T'1 " )
5. STEPH CURRY ( 16 / 17 )
6. NIKOLA JOKIC ( 23 / 25 )
7. OSCAR ( 63 / 64 )
8. SHAQ ( 98 / 00 )
9. KAREEM ( 74 / 77 )

TIER 3 ( All time Great )
10. Jerry West ( 65 / 66 )
11. James Harden ( 19 / 20 )
12. SGA ( 25 )
13. Chris Paul ( 08 / 15 )
14. Kobe Bryant ( 06 / 07 )
15. Luka ( 24 )
16. KD ( 14 / 17 )
17. Dirk ( 06 / 11 )
18. Charles Barkley ( 89 / 90 )

TIER 4 ( OPOY level )
19. Wilt Chamberlain ( 64 / 67 )
20. Rick Barry ( 67 )
21. Larry BIRD ( 86 / 87 )
22. Dwyane Wade ( 09 / 10 )
23. Reggie Miller ( 94 / 95 )
24. Moses Malone ( 81 / 83 )
25. Karl Malone ( 97 / 98 )
26. Westbrook ( 16 / 17 )

I could have forgotten some player but the overall list would be like this

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

[Top10alltime]

Shai definitely belongs in a top 20 quite easily at this point

Where do you think, Shai would be in the top 20, I might say he is over a 86 or 87 Bird easily (take ur pick of Bird offense peak), and he is also over an 06 Kobe atp. Where would you have 25 Shai??

[DCasey91]

All I know is Nash is massively overrated. Primary offence with value lies in higher volume or something that has a differential. Magic had rebounding, inside post play, and size obviously the rest GOAT like trounce the pure volume stakes

I find Nash to be closer to Paul then ever getting near tier zero.

Shaq to me is underrated. In Basketball terms 99 to early 2000`s is historically the dead ball era yet still put up amazing offensive results because duh its Shaq

Even in 2004 I just recently watched the whole playoffs he was still a joke and was clearly the best offensive player even with Kobe and prime Garnett it was still ludicrous to watch.

Even on a more defensively orientated team to cover and being the most triple teamed player and fouls that didn't get called of all time.

Shaq is just bizzaro Curry they dement whole defences for just appearing on the court. MJ, James don't have that effect imo. Those are the only two

I champion Bird as well for higher rankings biggest indicator of his GOAT port is Mchales production which stayed awesome with and without it goes to show that he really could catapult a team offensive homegeny because dude was just fundamentally peerless it was effortless with his all round skillet. Not a chance in hell SGA is a better offensive player than peak Bird. Look at the damn usage for godsakes. Bird really did make everyone around him play to their strengths

Finally I have Dirk clearly ahead of Durant. Sometimes less is more, rebounding, turnover eco better straightline structure and about a decade of elite returns puts him clearly ahead imo. Call me old fashioned but players with size can learn more from Dirk than with KD.

[Elpolo_14]

For my top 20 offensive peak ( 1yr peak and another year I think it in contention )

TIER 1 ( GOAT )
1. STEVE NASH ( 05 / 07 )
2. MAGIC ( 87 / 90 )
3. LEJUAN JAMES ( 17 / 18 )
4. MICHAEL JORDAN ( 90 / 91 )

TIER 2 ( SUB - GOAT "Arguable T'1 " )
5. STEPH CURRY ( 16 / 17 )
6. NIKOLA JOKIC ( 23 / 25 )
7. OSCAR ( 63 / 64 )
8. SHAQ ( 98 / 00 )
9. KAREEM ( 74 / 77 )

TIER 3 ( All time Great )
10. Jerry West ( 65 / 66 )
11. James Harden ( 19 / 20 )
12. SGA ( 25 )
13. Chris Paul ( 08 / 15 )
14. Kobe Bryant ( 06 / 07 )
15. Luka ( 24 )
16. KD ( 14 / 17 )
17. Dirk ( 06 / 11 )
18. Charles Barkley ( 89 / 90 )

TIER 4 ( OPOY level )
19. Wilt Chamberlain ( 64 / 67 )
20. Rick Barry ( 67 )
21. Larry BIRD ( 86 / 87 )
22. Dwyane Wade ( 09 / 10 )
23. Reggie Miller ( 94 / 95 )
24. Moses Malone ( 81 / 83 )
25. Karl Malone ( 97 / 98 )
26. Westbrook ( 16 / 17 )

I could have forgotten some player but the overall list would be like this

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size )

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.
4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to fing his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

[ceoofkobefans]

Will try my best to tier this and my list will be off the dome so I could forget some guys that should get recognition

1. 2017 LeBron James
2. 1991 Michael Jordan
3. 2016 Steph Curry
4. 1989 Magic Johnson

5. 2023 Nikola Jokic
6. 2007 Steve Nash
7. 2006 Kobe Bryant

8. 1998 Shaquille O’Neal
9. 1988 Larry Bird
10. 1964 Oscar Robertson
11. 2020 James Harden

12. 2014 Kevin Durant
13. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

14. 1966 Jerry West
15. 2009 Dwayne Wade
16. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
17. 2008 Chris Paul

18. 2017 Russell Westbrook
19. 1975 Rick Barry
20. 2003 Tracy McGrady

HMs: 1990 Charles Barkley, 1998 Karl Malone, 2001 Allen Iverson, 2025 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, 2024 Luka Doncic

[Elpolo_14]

Will try my best to tier this and my list will be off the dome so I could forget some guys that should get recognition

1. 2017 LeBron James
2. 1991 Michael Jordan
3. 2016 Steph Curry
4. 1989 Magic Johnson

5. 2023 Nikola Jokic
6. 2007 Steve Nash
7. 2006 Kobe Bryant

8. 1998 Shaquille O’Neal
9. 1988 Larry Bird
10. 1964 Oscar Robertson
11. 2020 James Harden

12. 2014 Kevin Durant
13. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

14. 1966 Jerry West
15. 2009 Dwayne Wade
16. 2011 Dirk Nowitzki
17. 2008 Chris Paul

18. 2017 Russell Westbrook
19. 1975 Rick Barry
20. 2003 Tracy McGrady

HMs: 1990 Charles Barkley, 1998 Karl Malone, 2001 Allen Iverson, 2025 Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, 2024 Luka Doncic

Never thought that you would have KD peaked higher than KAJ on the offensive end. Both pretty similar scoring loader but KAJ collapse the defense on a higher rate.

[MMyhre]

For my top 20 offensive peak ( 1yr peak and another year I think it in contention )

TIER 1 ( GOAT )
1. STEVE NASH ( 05 / 07 )
2. MAGIC ( 87 / 90 )
3. LEJUAN JAMES ( 17 / 18 )
4. MICHAEL JORDAN ( 90 / 91 )

TIER 2 ( SUB - GOAT "Arguable T'1 " )
5. STEPH CURRY ( 16 / 17 )
6. NIKOLA JOKIC ( 23 / 25 )
7. OSCAR ( 63 / 64 )
8. SHAQ ( 98 / 00 )
9. KAREEM ( 74 / 77 )

TIER 3 ( All time Great )
10. Jerry West ( 65 / 66 )
11. James Harden ( 19 / 20 )
12. SGA ( 25 )
13. Chris Paul ( 08 / 15 )
14. Kobe Bryant ( 06 / 07 )
15. Luka ( 24 )
16. KD ( 14 / 17 )
17. Dirk ( 06 / 11 )
18. Charles Barkley ( 89 / 90 )

TIER 4 ( OPOY level )
19. Wilt Chamberlain ( 64 / 67 )
20. Rick Barry ( 67 )
21. Larry BIRD ( 86 / 87 )
22. Dwyane Wade ( 09 / 10 )
23. Reggie Miller ( 94 / 95 )
24. Moses Malone ( 81 / 83 )
25. Karl Malone ( 97 / 98 )
26. Westbrook ( 16 / 17 )

I could have forgotten some player but the overall list would be like this

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size )

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.
4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to fing his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters. The offensive postseason ceiling will always be lower with Nash than a Curry, Kobe etc because he does not offer reliable, high volume scoring that is always needed to win it all.

He has to be adjusted down just like Harden because they failed in different ways to adapt as scorers in the postseason. Always taking good shots makes you look good, but sometimes there is no high % shot available and you need someone who is willing to get dirty and also be good at it - force that 1v1 crossover into an and1, get a midrange pullup shot off, split the pick and roll to get into a huge % play in the paint etc.

Nash has stated he shoulda shot more and he was right, he didnt push himself enough to take that extra level and thus he should remain lower. He clearly had the talent for it, but thats a what if but shown in some of his big playoff scoring games, but it was needed consistently.

[lessthanjake]

I would like to see reasoning, of how Steve Nash is GOAT offensive peak level, and Steph is left out of the top 4 in 15-16.
How is J. West in the top ten, over James Harden, and SGA and Luka this high.

I also obviously don't like Bird, but I am very confused as to how 87 Bird is lower than Wilt. And Rick Barry in 67, is not even his best season offensively, yet he is in the top 25, which 03 TMac should be above, let alone above 87 Bird. And if he's above, why not Dwade or Reggie???

Lastly, there should be no reason for 03 TMac to not appear on this list, when Karl freakin Malone is here. He is a 09 Kobe-ish/87 Bird level offensive peak, who had clearly ATG scoring, and sub-ATG PM. All-time level floor raising as well, with one of the worst offensive supporting casts in NBA history.

1. Nash on/off offensive is a swing of +17.1 offense rating ( +16.6 swing without Marion / +25.3 swing without Joe / +17.5 swing without Amare ) - he also didn't upgrade a bad team to just good or great , he uplifted them to be the 2nd Best rORTG ( +8.4 ) of all time behind the Mavs 04 ( +9.2 ). You can attributed some of his impact to his teammates like Amare Stoudemire / Joe Johnson / Marion but their impact corelate with how Nash able to maximize his playmaking and court awareness to bring up the best in each one of them on offense ( it can either be collapsing the defense to leave room for Amare and Shawn to play finish with less contact / His OFFball presence can't make the Defense slack off him to help against Joe Johnson isolation ). Nash mid volume Elite efficiency scoring make him a thread to not be leaving out. I would say Nash Onball playmaking is on the same tier as Magic ( who I got 2nd ) but his Offball movement are more polished + combine with his effectiveness to score everywhere on the floor bring value more than magic offball who's less versatile scorer . Nash while Facing -3.8 rDRTG defense in the playoffs in 2005 he lead a +16.3 rORTG adj. While on court ( Curry need a super team to lead this kind of offense +17.9 rORTG in 2017 against worse defensive -1.1rDRTG. which Kawhi miss the series after game 1 ).

2. The reason I put Curry at 4th is that I do value Onball more and the like of any player I mentioned above ( maybe for the exception of MJ who I still think is better onball ) definitely wipe curry on that aspect. Onball playmaking is more valuable+more definite to an offensive engine Skillsets/ability cause the best O player is the one organize and delivery everything making it less prone to someone else mistake. Curry lead a +8.1 offense in the regular season and have offensive on/off swing +14.9 rating ( +8.4 swing without Draymond / +14.2 swing without Klay ) you will see that Curry offensive uplifted get almost cut by half when his Onball initiator and decision maker in Draymond green isn't on the floor. Curry 16 in playoffs get injured - still part of his peak year so it cannot be left out only lead a +5.2rORTG adj. Against -0.7 rDRTG defense ( Draymond was leading a +6.3 rORTG in a bigger sample size )

3. Jerry west - I might have been to overblown by his Resilience against the best defensive team ever ( -9.4 rDRTG )while his best teammates in Baylor got injured in the final and west unlimited scoring ability still translate to impact the floor. But I can totally see harden Playmaking ability and Regular Season lead offense being better. I don't have much to argue about

4. SGA have elite impact as offensive floor even with his best teammates missing out due to injury or not on the floor with him . +11.1 offense Swing ( +16.2 swing without j'dub / +14.2 swing without chet / +14.5 without I.hart ). His scoring Volume and efficiency with how he score is nearly unschemable especially the Drive ( he lead the league ) to get bucket or FT that make the defense get less touchy cause the foul he draw each time he drive couple it with his elite midrange jumper.
4.1 Luka have ever traits of an Elite offense engine. Scoring ability ( versatility / efficiency ) he can score against elite defense And his playmaking off the PNR is nearly unstoppable due to Luka being able to trap the defensive player to come edge the screen on him because of his shooting as a versatile Scorer or his drive ability with his control of speed able to manipulate a single coverage defender so it obligated a help defender on him leaving the roll man wipe open. With the roll man open Luka ability to find The best way or best timing to pass the ball cannot be neutralize while the defense collapse on the driving/edge defense ( this will help his case as court vision ) and Luka delivery on the lob traits or the bounce pass are hard to predict by help defense ( the other who didn't double Luka ) and even if the roll man get rotate on Luka passing ability that make him elite at everywhere on the court make him create for the Prerimeter open cause the PNR offense. Luka on ball présence is always an advantageous skills and less prone to scheme than others player

5. I do think Wilt playmaking ability relative to era in 67 is more impressive than what bird has in his disposal. Add to that a layer of Offensive Rebounding ability so I take wilt

6. Karl Malone is an elite offensive player in the regular season. Elite scorer with great and effective PNR action in the RS. I don't see why wouldn't he be included

7. Rick Barry might be the more scalable and portable Scorer of his era ( in contention with west ). To catch shoot off ball - to run PNR then pull up jump shot or finish at the rim. His playmaking was decent enough to compliment his scoring. Are you choosing 75 Rick Barry instead because of the IQ and as ball distributeur ? I can totally see that year instead

8. Reggie Miller except from OFFball movement and 3pt ball have nothing on bird offensive ability. Bird is a better volume scorer while still maintaining the efficiency - he a better transition initiator with his court awareness to fing his man for an outlet pass - better decisions making in the half court off a double or off screen - MILES BETTER Screen setter - Better O-Reb ( even if he's didn't box out that much ) his timing and positioning were great - on ball bird also better by just a Facilitor and passer in general

9. Lastly like I state in my post that I could have forgotten some player so TMac could be in the list too

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters. The offensive postseason ceiling will always be lower with Nash than a Curry, Kobe etc because he does not offer reliable, high volume scoring that is always needed to win it all.

He has to be adjusted down just like Harden because they failed in different ways to adapt as scorers in the postseason. Always taking good shots makes you look good, but sometimes there is no high % shot available and you need someone who is willing to get dirty and also be good at it - force that 1v1 crossover into an and1, get a midrange pullup shot off, split the pick and roll to get into a huge % play in the paint etc.

Nash has stated he shoulda shot more and he was right, he didnt push himself enough to take that extra level and thus he should remain lower. He clearly had the talent for it, but thats a what if but shown in some of his big playoff scoring games, but it was needed consistently.

Nash’s teams were actually incredible offensively in the playoffs. His teams’ relative offensive rating with him on the floor in the playoffs in his career was even higher than it was for him in the regular season, and also higher than anyone you’ll find in the playoffs. And it was even better in just his years on the Suns. Nash’s teams’ offense got better in the playoffs and were more dominant than anyone’s playoff offenses I’m aware of. They lost because of defense. If anything, Nash’s ability to translate his team to great playoff offense should make us adjust him up, not down.

[tsherkin]

All that is great but Nash did not figure out how to make it work to go all the way in the playoffs where it really matters.

That... isn't really true, though.

ORTG RS (rank) / PS (rank)

2005: 114.5 (1), 118.2 (1)
2006: 111.5 (2), 113.7 (2) [No Amare]
2007: 113.9 (1), 110.6 (2, -0.3 from 1st place)
2008: 113.3 (2nd), 104.1 (12) [Shaq for the last 28 games of the RS, and then into the playoffs]
2010: 115.3 (1), 117.8 (1)

Without Shaq, they were making the offense work just fine in the playoffs.

It's worth remembering that they ran into the title Spurs (WCFs) in 05, the Dallas Mavericks in 06, the title Spurs again in 07 with the suspension, and the title Lakers in 2010 with 35 year-old Nash.

This idea that they struggled to replicate what they were doing in the RS is just not accurate. Their real problem is that they couldn't defend Tim Duncan. And the 2010 Lakers were quite a team.

You can discuss Nash's approach to volume scoring, and that's valid. He should have shot more. We know it, he knows it... but that isn't really what stopped them from winning. And certainly their later formats with, like, Channing Frye at the 5 had some very obvious issues.

But it's worth remembering that the entire journey STARTED when Nash was 30, and naturally his own personal efficacy began to diminish as age and his back issues started to get after him as well. 05-07, though, they very much had a shot. Particularly in 05, when they still have Joe Johnson, but again in 07 when that suspension really cost them after Horry's BS.

Again, there are things to critique Nash in terms of being a GOAT offensive engine and such, but acting like it didn't hold up in the playoffs is nonsense.

[SHAQ32]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

[tsherkin]

LeBron never shot the ball well enough or dominated enough off-the-ball to be listed as high as he is on these lists.

That... isn't accurate at all.