Cam Whitmore

[clyde21]

and this is coming from someone who has Cam as a legit top10 guy, but he's not a four. that's just the facts.

[Hal14]

and this is coming from someone who has Cam as a legit top10 guy, but he's not a four.

I never said he is. He projects best at the 3. But I think he *could* play some at the 4. Just like he could probably play some at the 2.

Let's not overthink this and talk in circles about 2, 3 or 4. He's a wing! NBA is positionless basketball these days anyways - jeez.

Most NBA players who are 232+ lbs and averaged over 12% rebounding % during their last season before getting drafted can play some at the 4. I'm not going out on a limb here, lol.

Grant Williams. 236 lbs and averaged 12.7% rebounding in college. Awfully similar to Whitmore at 232 lbs and a 12.2% rebounding % in college. Whitmore has similar build to Grant williams, too. Justin Lewis. 235 lbs and a 13.4% rebounding %.

that's just the facts.

That's literally your opinion - not a fact

[jezzerinho]

and this is coming from someone who has Cam as a legit top10 guy, but he's not a four.

I never said he is. He projects best at the 3. But I think he *could* play some at the 4. Just like he could probably play some at the 2.

Let's not overthink this and talk in circles about 2, 3 or 4. He's a wing! NBA is positionless basketball these days anyways - jeez.

Most NBA players who are 232+ lbs and averaged over 12% rebounding % during their last season before getting drafted can play some at the 4. I'm not going out on a limb here, lol.

Grant Williams. 236 lbs and averaged 12.7% rebounding in college. Awfully similar to Whitmore at 232 lbs and a 12.2% rebounding % in college. Whitmore has similar build to Grant williams, too. Justin Lewis. 235 lbs and a 13.4% rebounding %.

that's just the facts.

That's literally your opinion - not a fact

Whitmore has way more vertical pop than Grant ever had, but yes.

[The-Power]

what advantages are you gaining by playing Cam as a 4 instead of a 2 or 3?

The problem with Whitmore is that he's – at least for the time being – strictly a play finisher with some straight-line drives on close-outs. NBA teams want multiple creators out there and it's easier to achieve that when your less skilled players can play the 4 or 5.

That being said, it depends on the NBA team and the specific game. If you have Garland and Mitchell as your backcourt and Mobley as a big man then you'll be fine playing Whitmore as a 3 instead of Okoro. That's enough creators on the floor, and Whitmore as a 4 would be really small. However, if you want to play faster and more spread out over the course of the game, it would increase Whitmore's value if he can play the 4 and you can play him next to two Guards and a Wing.

I see Whitmore as a 3 who teams will try out as a small-ball 4 and see what results they get. Most 3s are asked to play some 4 in today's NBA anyways, so there's no reason to not put Whitmore in the same position. If he can hold his own defensively against taller players, there are a lot of advantages to playing him at the 4. It has the potential to make the defensive unit more switchable, and he has advantages over some taller players on offense (in particular having more space for catch-and-shoot 3s, and better chances of driving into and converting in the paint on close-outs and cuts) that could force the opponent to size down or keep their 4s further away from the basket.

Ultimately, the NBA is not really about classic positions anymore anyways, so labels don't matter nearly as much as roles and line-up flexibility and this conversations is not as relevant as it used to. Barnes and Murray play the 3-4 for the Kings, Tatum and Brown for the Celtics, Wiggins and Kuminga at times for the Warriors, DFS and Johnson for the Nets currently, Butler and Martin for the Heat for most of the season, Okogie and Craig for the Suns in KD's absence, Williams and Dort for OKC. I can easily see Whitmore being one of the players in such a pairing.

What I'm fairly confident about – as Whitmore is today – is that there aren't going to be a lot of games in which there aren't at least two on-ball creators on the court alongside Whitmore.

[ItsDanger]

I'm high on his upside but some criticisms are valid. I'm a big supporter of building a strong physical roster. The league is so soft today, it gives you a great advantage in a 7 game series.

[Braggins]

I think Whitmore might benefit from cutting a little weight and playing down a position like Miles Bridges did between his freshman and sophomore year.

Bridges was in the 230s his freshman year, but was considered undersized at the 4 due to length issues, so he cut down to the low 220s (I think) to prepare for playing SF in the NBA.

I think Whitmore is generally getting projected as a 3 and I see a lot of people referring him to a 3/4 combo, but I think he looks a tad shorter than Bridges and also doesn't have a great wingspan, so I think he might be better off also cutting down to the low 220s and playing as a 2/3 combo.

I think his lateral quickness is better than Bridges was at the same weight, so I think if he was a little lighter he could really excel against smaller/quicker players on both ends of the floor.

[Hal14]

I think Whitmore might benefit from cutting a little weight and playing down a position like Miles Bridges did between his freshman and sophomore year.

Bridges was in the 230s his freshman year, but was considered undersized at the 4 due to length issues, so he cut down to the low 220s (I think) to prepare for playing SF in the NBA.

I think Whitmore is generally getting projected as a 3 and I see a lot of people referring him to a 3/4 combo, but I think he looks a tad shorter than Bridges and also doesn't have a great wingspan, so I think he might be better off also cutting down to the low 220s and playing as a 2/3 combo.

I think his lateral quickness is better than Bridges was at the same weight, so I think if he was a little lighter he could really excel against smaller/quicker players on both ends of the floor.

That's fair. Get down to 220 lbs. Then he's 6'6", 220 lbs. Basically the same as Jaylen Brown. That's good size for a 2/3 combo. Enough strength/power but also enough quickness.

In HS and at the FIBA tournament he was more of a 3/4 combo so the added weight helped him then. But yeah, in NBA the players are bigger and faster, more ground to cover..

[SeattleJazzFan]

i agree that whitmore should lose about 10 lbs.

[BlazersBroncos]

I was hoping to see the next Miles Bridges but it just doesn’t happen when I watch him. His block numbers are pretty startlingly low for a guy touted as a powerful athlete as well. Raw stats aren’t the end all be all but 0.3 is low enough to start a conversation IMO.

And that’s not even getting into his APG.

Still have him 10 on my board but I think that’s more of an indication of the mediocrity of the middle R1 range in this draft (that 8-18 range).

[jman3134]

How are you making anything of his passing with the season Villanova just had? You can't just look at a box score for things like that.

[The-Power]

How are you making anything of his passing with the season Villanova just had? You can't just look at a box score for things like that.

To be fair, his passing was just bad when he attempted it and he often didn't even try to create with his passing. APG do not matter that much, and I agree that this was augmented by the Villanova team; but I still saw neither a good feel nor the ability to pass with accuracy, and no team can stifle even the flashes.

[jman3134]

The static nature of Nova's offense prevented us from seeing whether or not he can make reads. The offball movement was awful and you had 2 guys out there who didn't want to shoot, so he was forced to just put his head down and create. He did quite well with what he was given.

[BlazersBroncos]

Ya, thats why I was concentrating more on the BPG. I understand Nova was a dumpster fire which can explain (To a point) the lack of APG.

But 0.3 BPG for a guy advertised as a muscled up, athletic forward in near 30mpg is really startling. The guy many like to compare him to, Miles Bridges, was getting over 1BPG in his career at Michigan State.

[SeattleJazzFan]

cam whitmore just wasn't very good this past season. there are several reasons for that including his injury, his craptastic team/coach, perhaps other factors that were more in his control, but he wasn't good. the blocks stat is just one more thing you can criticize about whitmore. if you take whitmore early in the draft, you are simply hoping that season was not indicative of who he is and can become, you're taking him based on his unique physical and athletic gifts, the potential he showed in HS, flashes at Nova, that he'll have great work ethic and he'll reach his ceiling or close to it.

[The-Power]

The static nature of Nova's offense prevented us from seeing whether or not he can make reads. The offball movement was awful and you had 2 guys out there who didn't want to shoot, so he was forced to just put his head down and create. He did quite well with what he was given.

The static nature of the system doesn't make him miss easy reads when they are there or throw wildly inaccurate passes. Those are basic issues that no system, not even the worst one, causes. A poor system makes opportunities less frequent and more difficult on average, but that doesn't mean they aren't there at all. That's just not how basketball works. So we can and should call a spade a spade and acknowledge that at this point, he lacks any sort of playmaking instincts or ability. That doesn't mean he can't develop in that regard, but it's nonetheless reality right now.

[jman3134]

If no one moves off ball, how is he going demonstrate any "vision"? Would love to see all these reads he was missing. That is just your assumption based on the apg numbers. I disagree with your approach. Either we pull the tape or leave it here.

[The-Power]

If no one moves off ball, how is he going demonstrate any "vision"? Would love to see all these reads he was missing. That is just your assumption based on the apg numbers. I disagree with your approach. Either we pull the tape or leave it here.

Woah, slow down here. You have no clue about my ‘approach’ to looking at prospects. I have watched plenty of Villanova games and focused on Whitmore in particular, and that's what I'm talking about. Maybe you're just projecting here, but it's quite arrogant of you to pretend to know why I hold certain opinions and to claim that this must be from simple boxscore watching. Perhaps that's how you approach these players but I don't.

RE: ‘Either we pull the tape or leave it here’. It's quite funny that this is your expectation here because you yourself have offered nothing substantial to this discussion thus far. You simply start out with an obviously ridiculous premise – there is, of course, some movement in every system and opportunities to make plays no matter how flawed the team is – and on that basis conclude that Whitmore just never had a chance to do anything playmaking-related at all and we simply cannot make any assessment. Which is obviously ridiculous.

But let me play along for one second. So if I can demonstrate you even a single instance where he misses an easy read or throws a poor pass, would that please you? Or do you expect me do go through hours of tape and provide dozens of examples while you provide nothing to substantiate your argument?

How about this. We pick one or two publicly available games and both watch them for the purpose of identifying instances in which Whitmore makes reads (is that even possible when nobody moves, though?), misses reads, makes good passes, and makes poor passes. And let's see what comes of it, and if there were truly zero instances that could help us assess his current playmaking prowess. Deal?

If not, I'd appreciate to not read any more of the boxscore-watching accusations and ‘show me film’ demands that would have been proven to be made in bad faith.

[MasterIchiro]

Miles needed 3 years to become a playmaker at the 3. His potential in that area was hardly evident in college. His appeal was his strength, athleticism, handles and potential from 3. They both play tough. I don't think any of us can see three years into the future. But at least in Charlotte, we've seen Miles make huge strides as a playmaker. He can create for himself and others. He excelled at neither his first 2.5 years after entering the draft as a sophomore.

I'm comfortable with him at 5 or 6.

[BostonCouchGM]

I don't understand the PF talk at all. Is it because he's listed at 6'7' and thick? He's barely 6'5" imo and if he has any hope of hitting his peak he's going to need to actually lose weight since he'll need to get quicker to be able to guard 1-3 he'll be defending in the NBA. PF? No chance

[jman3134]

If no one moves off ball, how is he going demonstrate any "vision"? Would love to see all these reads he was missing. That is just your assumption based on the apg numbers. I disagree with your approach. Either we pull the tape or leave it here.

Woah, slow down here. You have no clue about my ‘approach’ to looking at prospects. I have watched plenty of Villanova games and focused on Whitmore in particular, and that's what I'm talking about. Maybe you're just projecting here, but it's quite arrogant of you to pretend to know why I hold certain opinions and to claim that this must be from simple boxscore watching. Perhaps that's how you approach these players but I don't.

RE: ‘Either we pull the tape or leave it here’. It's quite funny that this is your expectation here because you yourself have offered nothing substantial to this discussion thus far. You simply start out with an obviously ridiculous premise – there is, of course, some movement in every system and opportunities to make plays no matter how flawed the team is – and on that basis conclude that Whitmore just never had a chance to do anything playmaking-related at all and we simply cannot make any assessment. Which is obviously ridiculous.

But let me play along for one second. So if I can demonstrate you even a single instance where he misses an easy read or throws a poor pass, would that please you? Or do you expect me do go through hours of tape and provide dozens of examples while you provide nothing to substantiate your argument?

How about this. We pick one or two publicly available games and both watch them for the purpose of identifying instances in which Whitmore makes reads (is that even possible when nobody moves, though?), misses reads, makes good passes, and makes poor passes. And let's see what comes of it, and if there were truly zero instances that could help us assess his current playmaking prowess. Deal?

If not, I'd appreciate to not read any more of the boxscore-watching accusations and ‘show me film’ demands that would have been proven to be made in bad faith.

WOW - what is this? Why are you taking this the way you took it? I obviously confused your position with the initial guy I was responding to (BB), who brought up APG (read the chain, you jumped in and I thought I was responding to the same guy). Why would I just arbitrarily accuse you of something like that, and why be so defensive and offended? We haven't interacted much on these boards, so I am not familiar with your takes either way. No need for the "I know you are but what am I" response. There wasn't a hint of arrogance - I was dismissive of APG being relevant to the conversation, but that was about it. Cool?

I was genuinely curious if you had any clips to illustrate your point, so we could debate what we were seeing. It could have been from an already existent video scouting report, for which there are plenty, I'm sure, considering the fact that Whitmore is a lotto pick.

There's really nothing ridiculous about my premise. Some college offenses are more conducive to gauging pro playmaking than others. If you want to criticize Cam for putting his head down and not swinging the ball when Brandon Slater and Baby Arch were overpassing on the perimeter (and not looking for their shots), you are missing something imo.

We don't need to go down the trail of "burden of proof" or "win the argument" tactics. It really isn't that serious. I'm extremely jammed up with basketball work beyond my day job at the moment. In May, it may be more easy to pull tape because I likely will be profiling Cam and other freshmen pre-draft. If you want to revisit this then, I would be happy to. Got several very big projects in the works, but plan on doing something with Cam before the draft. Stay tuned!