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The Official 2023 Draft Thread

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#261 » by Dat2U » Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:39 am

NatP4 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:8th or 9th pick huh? This list always changes, lol.

1. G Anthony Black
2. F Gradey Dick
3. G Cason Wallace
4. F Brice Sensabaugh
5. F Taylor Hendricks
6. F Cam Whitmore
7. F Kris Murray
8. G Jordan Hawkins
9. C Dereck Lively
10. C Kyle Filipowski
11. F Leonard Miller


I personally don’t want any player on this list. Hendricks is intriguing, Wallace will be solid. No one is worth a top 10 pick.

Much more interested in this list:

(According to ESPNs Top 100 Best Available Prospects list)

(38) Brandon Podziemski
(40) Bilal Coulibaly
(33) Sidy Cissoko
(36) Marcus Sasser
(Unranked) Markquis Nowell
(54) Ryan Kalkbrenner
(20) Noah Clowney
(Unranked) Adama Sanogo
(53) Zach Edey


So do you only think ONE??? projected 1st rounder is any good or are you just now focusing on being the resident 2nd round/undrafted free agent guru?
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#262 » by NatP4 » Mon Apr 10, 2023 6:54 am

Look at the 7-20 range in 2021:
7. Jonathan Kuminga
8. Franz Wagner
9. Davion Mitchell
10. Ziaire Williams (officially traded to Grizzlies)
11. James Bouknight
12. Joshua Primo
13. Chris Duarte
14. Moses Moody
15. Corey Kispert
16. Alperen Sengun (officially traded to Rockets)
17. Trey Murphy (officially traded to Pelicans)
18. Tre Mann
19. Kai Jones (officially traded to Hornets)
20. Jalen Johnson

There’s a few decent role players. Wagner is the only big “hit”

No doubt that Wallace, Black, Sensabaugh, Dick, and Hendricks etc… will all be solid rotation players.

The previous year:

7. Killian Hayes
8. Obi Toppin
9. Deni Avdija
10. Jalen Smith
11. Devin Vassell
12. Tyrese Haliburton
13. Kira Lewis Jr.
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Cole Anthony
16. Isaiah Stewart >> officially traded to the Pistons, after first being dealt to the Rockets
17. Aleksej Pokusevski >> officially traded to the Thunder
18. Josh Green
19. Saddiq Bey >> officially traded to the Pistons, after first being dealt to the Clippers
20. Precious Achiuwa

Some solid rotation guys, one huge “hit” in Haliburton, and an elite role player in Josh Green.

Overall point: teams make the mistake of shooting for the upside guys because of this perception of what kind of “value” you need to get out of a mid 1st round pick. They ignore good college/other leagues players.

Maxey, Quickley, Bane all go in the 20-30 range after that group in 2020.

Herb Jones, Quentin Grimes, and Cam Thomas in 2021.

The 7-20 range in 2019 was absolutely terrible. The only good player was a huge reach in a 4 year college player in Cam Johnson. Of course, Brandon Clark, Jordan Poole, Keldon Johnson, and Kevin Porter Jr all go 20-30 range after that. Nicolas Claxton goes 31. Cody Martin 36, Daniel Gafford 38.

2018 you had SGA and Mikal Bridges in that 7-20 range, after that Afernee Simons, Landry Shamet, Rob Williams, Jalen Brunson, Devonte Graham, Mitchell Robinson, Gary Trent Jr all in the 21-37 range. Pretty ridiculous.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#263 » by Rafael122 » Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:04 pm

Just looking at KOC's mock draft, I think the only two players I would consider in this range are Wallace and Hendricks. Hendricks seems to have that freak trait I'm looking for in athletes, while Wallace's scouting reports reads as a guy who can step in and help immediately and have a 12-15 year career. Gradey would have needed to show something more on defense for me to even consider him. You can find shooters who can't play defense in the second round or in undrafted free agency.

It's a shame we took ourselves out of the running for the Thompson twins.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#264 » by prime1time » Mon Apr 10, 2023 4:14 pm

Excited to dig into the draft
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#265 » by Jay81 » Mon Apr 10, 2023 11:28 pm

Rafael122 wrote:Just looking at KOC's mock draft, I think the only two players I would consider in this range are Wallace and Hendricks. Hendricks seems to have that freak trait I'm looking for in athletes, while Wallace's scouting reports reads as a guy who can step in and help immediately and have a 12-15 year career. Gradey would have needed to show something more on defense for me to even consider him. You can find shooters who can't play defense in the second round or in undrafted free agency.

It's a shame we took ourselves out of the running for the Thompson twins.

I keep hearing dicks defense is underrated…probably way better than kispert
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#266 » by Kanyewest » Tue Apr 11, 2023 3:54 pm

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#267 » by payitforward » Tue Apr 11, 2023 7:00 pm

Nat -- basically, you're making my point:
1. the order in which guys are picked is not the order of how good they turn out to be.
2. no one can reliably pick the nth best player at position n on the board.
3. Because you get 2 lower picks for one higher pick, it is always worth it to think about trading down.

Ask yourself this: in how many of the last 15 drafts has the guy taken #1 turned out to be the best player from that draft?
My answer is zero -- the number 1 pick hasn't turned out to be the best player out of any of the last 15 drafts. Unless you want to call it for Ben Simmons in 2016 (but you don't, do you?).

Ok, but in how many of them has the guy taken #2 turned out to be the best?
I've got 1 --Ja Morant in 2019. That's all.

How about the guy taken #3? How often has that guy turned out to be the best player in his draft?
Well, it was close in 2009 & 2014, but no. Maybe in 2016, probably in 2017, maybe in 2018 (but if you traded down to 11, perhaps you did even better?), likely in 2021.

45 guys went 1, 2 or 3 from 2008-2022. 3 maybe 4 turned out to be the best players in their draft.

Speaking of 2021, btw, I'd say that so far Corey Kispert has been better than 10 of the 14 guys taken before him.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#268 » by NatP4 » Tue Apr 11, 2023 8:24 pm

Trading down with Indiana or Brooklyn. 7 for 21&22 seems like a solid deal. 7&41 for 26/29/32 would be great.

Cissoko at 18 years old: 15.7 points 3.5 rebounds 4.4 assists 2.3 turnovers 1.4 steals 1.2 blocks. 59.9% TS

2nd on the Ignite in On/Off differential at +10.6.

Scoot Henderson at 19 years old: 19.4 points 6.2 rebounds 8.0 assists 4.0 turnovers 1.2 steals 0.7 blocks. 53.7% TS

5th on the Ignite in On/Off differential at +6.8


Coulibaly with the junior team: 24.5 points 7.2 rebounds 2.8 assists 3.1 turnovers 2.8 steals 1.3 blocks. 62% TS

Coulibaly with the senior team (Same team as Wembanyama): 9.1 points 5.4 rebounds 1.2 assists 2.0 steals 0.5 blocks 1.5 turnovers. 63% TS
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#269 » by doclinkin » Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:57 pm

Whoever picks up Trayce Jackson-Davis is going to get a hellofa player. That's another who will outplay his draft position. Instant veteran, pro role-player. Dirty work guy by blood and inclination. Just wants to win and does everything necessary, with zero mistakes. His game may look limited but that is because he knows his strengths and maximizes them.

I think we will see more players in the TJD mold coming out of the NIL /transfer portal era. Guys with developed skillsets who have a feel for the game coming into the league.

I think his stock may rise a bit during scrimmages at the combine. And agents won't want their bigs to work out against him when he is touring from team to team.



Here he is compared against the top PF's ahead of him in many mocks.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=taylor-hendricks--trayce-jackson-davis--kris-murray--jarace-walker--cam-whitmore

That assist rate as a frontcourt player is a pretty nice stat.

That's a Grizzlies/Spurs type of player. And a good fit on a team with a finesse Big like Porzingis. He's the hockey enforcer and natural leader that this team needs.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#270 » by payitforward » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:23 pm

Love that kid!
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#271 » by gambitx777 » Wed Apr 12, 2023 5:28 am

payitforward wrote:Nat -- basically, you're making my point:
1. the order in which guys are picked is not the order of how good they turn out to be.
2. no one can reliably pick the nth best player at position n on the board.
3. Because you get 2 lower picks for one higher pick, it is always worth it to think about trading down.

Ask yourself this: in how many of the last 15 drafts has the guy taken #1 turned out to be the best player from that draft?
My answer is zero -- the number 1 pick hasn't turned out to be the best player out of any of the last 15 drafts. Unless you want to call it for Ben Simmons in 2016 (but you don't, do you?).

Ok, but in how many of them has the guy taken #2 turned out to be the best?
I've got 1 --Ja Morant in 2019. That's all.

How about the guy taken #3? How often has that guy turned out to be the best player in his draft?
Well, it was close in 2009 & 2014, but no. Maybe in 2016, probably in 2017, maybe in 2018 (but if you traded down to 11, perhaps you did even better?), likely in 2021.

45 guys went 1, 2 or 3 from 2008-2022. 3 maybe 4 turned out to be the best players in their draft.

Speaking of 2021, btw, I'd say that so far Corey Kispert has been better than 10 of the 14 guys taken before him.
Very true!

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#272 » by closg00 » Wed Apr 12, 2023 11:39 am

Ernie trauma aside, wouldn't this summer be the summer for Tommy to trade our 1st round pick for a vet?...he thinks we have a contender with the current core.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#273 » by FAH1223 » Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:09 pm

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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#274 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:38 pm

Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#275 » by FAH1223 » Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:52 pm

doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


Anthony Black does get to the FT line a good amount.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#276 » by NatP4 » Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:26 pm

doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


Yeah, you and I both know Podziemski will turn into a better NBA guard than Black, and I think Black is solid, but you aren’t having much of an offensive impact if you shoot 30% from the college 3pt line, and he’ll be 20 years old by the time his rookie season starts.

Good role player? Good hustle guy/defender? Absolutely. Lead guard? Initiator? Dynamic offensively? Worth the 7th overall pick? Don’t think so.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#277 » by 80sballboy » Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:51 pm

doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


So you don't want a good defender in the backcourt because of Bonga, Brown and Avdija? We've been one of the worst defensive teams for the last decade and Beal is going nowhere. I'm not saying Black is the guy at 7 or 8, but I have no issue going for a tall point guard that can defend, is athletic and can run an offense. Josh Giddey couldn't shoot a lick either coming out.

I haven't seen enough of Black where I'm enamored with him or hate him. But I don't hate the idea of adding a tall point guard that can defend and pass. So is he a healthy Lonzo Ball or is he Dyson Daniels, who is still developing? Yes, the perimeter shooting is a concern and you aren't getting a perfect player at 7 or 8 in this draft.

https://fansided.com/2023/03/29/2023-nba-draft-scouting-report-anthony-black/
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#278 » by DCZards » Wed Apr 12, 2023 9:02 pm

80sballboy wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


So you don't want a good defender in the backcourt because of Bonga, Brown and Avdija? We've been one of the worst defensive teams for the last decade and Beal is going nowhere. I'm not saying Black is the guy at 7 or 8, but I have no issue going for a tall point guard that can defend, is athletic and can run an offense. Josh Giddey couldn't shoot a lick either coming out.

I haven't seen enough of Black where I'm enamored with him or hate him. But I don't hate the idea of adding a tall point guard that can defend and pass. So is he a healthy Lonzo Ball or is he Dyson Daniels, who is still developing? Yes, the perimeter shooting is a concern and you aren't getting a perfect player at 7 or 8 in this draft.

https://fansided.com/2023/03/29/2023-nba-draft-scouting-report-anthony-black/

Gotta agree with 80sballboy here. I don’t know a whole lot about Black and right now my preference is Cason Wallace if we’re going to take a PG in the lottery.

But I’m not gonna rule out Black given his great size for a PG, his strengths as a playmaker and defender, and his reportedly high bball IQ. Black's 30% 3pt shooting is an issue. But it's the same % that Johnny D. shot his last year at Wisconsin and it's what Giddey continues to shoot in the NBA.

A young player's shooting is often the easiest thing for them to improve upon.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#279 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:32 pm

80sballboy wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


So you don't want a good defender in the backcourt because of Bonga, Brown and Avdija? We've been one of the worst defensive teams for the last decade and Beal is going nowhere. I'm not saying Black is the guy at 7 or 8, but I have no issue going for a tall point guard that can defend, is athletic and can run an offense. Josh Giddey couldn't shoot a lick either coming out.

I haven't seen enough of Black where I'm enamored with him or hate him. But I don't hate the idea of adding a tall point guard that can defend and pass. So is he a healthy Lonzo Ball or is he Dyson Daniels, who is still developing? Yes, the perimeter shooting is a concern and you aren't getting a perfect player at 7 or 8 in this draft.

https://fansided.com/2023/03/29/2023-nba-draft-scouting-report-anthony-black/


Sure and add John Wall to the list, while we are at it, much as I love the guy. And Johnny Davis' 24% from three. Are we counting him as a success? Or a reason to draft more incomplete players?

Are we not tired of bringing in players hoping they will learn to play the game? A backcourt player who cannot shoot is a liability. Show me one guy we have brought in to this organization in the past 10 years who learned to shoot from outside while he was here. (Okay Rui, I guess, though his game was deficient in other ways). Hell, Beal has regressed in outside shooting. Maybe Black develops a shot, maybe, but the track record of this organization says nope.

If I am drafting an incomplete player, let me draft back and get one proven player plus one potential guy. Or kick the pick forward. Or trade Deni I suppose for someone who wants to bid on him ahead of the season.

Sure, why not pick a back court defender who will take Delon Wright's minutes. Or displace Deni from the line-up. I'm all for upgrades, but let me upgrade with players who don't duplicate and magnify the problems we already have. Because if you draft a guy who redoubles the problems we already have you will only devalue both of them. They won't play on court at the same time. They will trade minutes back and forth, and teams that circle like vultures to pick one off won't offer much in trade because they perceive the team as having a surplus. You devalue your own assets.

Seems to me a high usage backcourt scorer and ballhandler who cannot play off the ball will be a source of frustration on a team with Bradley Beal. And no upgrade from Morris and Delon. Not that I worry about displacing them, just that they both played pretty efficiently and we still couldn't sniff the lottery.

For me its a Pass. Take Taylor Hendricks as a frontcourt player who can both block shots and shoot from outside. To sub in for Gafford who only does one of those 2 things. Our biggest deficit came from inefficient play by Kuzma. Lets get an upgrade there if there is equivalent talent.

Or trade back. Give me Trayce Jackson Davis for toughness, plus Bilal Coulibaly as that rangy backcourt defender you're looking for.

That's my opinion as of today. I'm not on team Black. Maybe I will research further and decide I like what I see. But him showing up smaller in the big games suggests to me 'nah'.
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Re: The Official 2023 Draft Thread 

Post#280 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:35 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:Anthony Black.

Cool, a defender who passes well and can't shoot. That's exactly what this team always needs. Tommy must be drooling. We can field an entire team of Deni Avdijas. Just need to somehow get back Isaac Bonga. Troy Brown Jr. Trade for Ben Simmons even.

I mean he's young? Maybe he improves? He's big if he is a PG? I don't like that he shot his worst against his biggest competition.

For me that's a pass or a trade back. Teams need outside shooters or break-you-down scorers who can rack fouls and score efficiently. Players who can't shoot tend not to get play time, so their developmental time is wasted.


Anthony Black does get to the FT line a good amount.


Okay, there's that.

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