What made Jordan better than Kobe?

[IdolW0rm]

you look at the ease with which jordan created separation and elevated over everyone in the 80's and it's almost a joke sometimes.

Yeah, this is still happening in 2005 or 2023. GOAT level vertical leap and alien hangtime will do that, and he wasn't exactly playing against plumbers in the 90's.
Kobe just wasn't close to being an athlete of that caliber, and that is the reason why he had to work "harder" to get the looks he wanted.

[FlyingScotsman]

- Faster
- Stronger
- better leaper / acrobatic scoring
- Bigger hands / better finisher
- Smarter decision making
- Arguably better stamina

I think despite Kobe having all the skill and post moves in the world etc Jordan just got to his sports easy and more efficiently as well due to some of the points above.

[celticfan42487]

Skill/Talent both physically and basketball wise. In all senses.

There's a reason Kobe wasn't the #1 on his championship runs often, and when he was the goto scorer he had to get bailed out by others while chucking up sub 30% fgs in game 7s in the Finals.

[scrabbarista]

Bigger, stronger, longer, quicker, faster, bigger hands, better at shooting.

Jordan generated greater separation, much easier than Kobe could. Yes their fadeaways looked similar but think about how often young Jordan didn't even need to fade; he could just quickly elevate over his defender. He put way more pressure on the rim as well. That threat unlocked more offense.

Kobe spent much of offensive output using Jordan's counters. Jordan used his counters when the defense took better stuff away.

All of this bleeds into BBIQ/shot-selection as well. It was much easier for Jordan to get good shots, so for Kobe to come anywhere near MJ's scoring volume, he had to take more bad shots.

MJ's first 13 seasons:

31.5 ppg on .505 fg%
(.580 TS% with 1.8 3PA's).

Kobe's long prime from 2001-2013:

28.1 ppg on .454 fg%
(.557 TS% with 4.4 3PA's)

MJ also had .2 more APG and .4 fewer TO's per game.

I watched Jordan from the 90-91 season and all of Kobe's career. As I watched I often had the thought that Jordan should be shooting more and, later, that Kobe should be shooting less. Maybe only marginally so. Still, the numbers above may justify my impressions while watching them live. The difference between MJ and Kobe, offensively, was sizeable. I'd guess that for Kobe to approach MJ's efficiency, he might've had to drop his scoring average by 3 or more points. Conversely, MJ might've averaged another 3-5 ppg at Kobe's efficency.

[scrabbarista]

Kobe was not a better 3p shooter than Michael, he was a more willing one. Mike only had 2 seasons where he shot 3 in volume, with the full 3p line, about 3 per game in '90 and '93 in which he shot overall .364. Kobe had many seasons where he shot 3 tres per game or more. If we go from age 24 to 33 he was shooting 4.7 per game on .342 average. The playoffs basically follow these trends as well. The other seasons where MJ is shooting one long shot a game just aren't a good statistical basis

This (your whole post) is one of the things I wish people understood about MJ's game. I made a whole thread about it a few years ago. A relatively huge portion of his 3PA's were probably end of clock/quarter/half/game shots. When he shot willingly, he was a good 3-point shooter. Not great, but good (for his era). Everything about his character and his game suggests he could've been pretty great if he'd prioritized it.

PS (whoops, didn't notice you mentioned the playoffs!)

And the trend held true in the playoffs. From 89-93 (no short line), he shot .357 on 2.5 attempts per game, or 227 attempts.
His career average is dragged down by the seasons when tons of his very few attempts were buzzer shots. (He didn't do the ubiquitous thing players do now where they don't shoot until after the buzzer).

[trex_8063]

People listed a ton of reasons... and that ends up with MJ having superb ts% for the most time while Kobe had a good one but not superb. That alone starts the separation.

Turnover economy furthers the separation. Kobe's all-around turnover economy was generally very very good for a SG; but Jordan's was near GOAT-tier among wings.

Diving a little deeper [into WHY Jordan's rTS% was better], a lot of it comes down to shot-selection, imo. This relates to the prior who-was-the-better-shooter? discussion, too. I would say the jury is still out on that question......unless we factor simple shot-selection as a component of "quality of shooting". At that point I feel an edge has to go to Jordan.

I would say there is arguably no one who was better at making difficult shots than Kobe Bryant........but the problem [relative to Jordan or ANYONE, really] comes by way of him taking more difficult [that is: low %] shots than just about anyone ever. At times it almost seemed as though he was even hunting these shots unnecessarily.

I don't know how many times I saw him penetrate 1-2 dribbles, have a half or quarter-step on his man, and instead of taking advantage of that quarter-step by either continuing the drive [maybe get a foul] or taking advantage of the defender's lateral scrambling-to-catch-up momentum by elevating directly off the dribble into a jumper.........he would do something like pick up the ball and stop, pause (waiting for his man to recover him), then pump-fake, pivot, pump-fake, pivot back, pump-fake one or two more times (by this point his man is bodied up and absolutely in his drawers), and then pull up into a HEAVILY-contested extremely difficult jumper from this dead-stop position.

And Kobe could make those probably better than anyone......but they're still just terrible shots, no matter who you are. And speaking for myself, it seemed [to me] like he took an awful lot of those types [or something similar] in spots where the defense didn't force him into it: he seemingly forced himself into it voluntarily.

[tsherkin]

I don't know how many times I saw him penetrate 1-2 dribbles, have a half or quarter-step on his man, and instead of taking advantage of that quarter-step by either continuing the drive [maybe get a foul] or taking advantage of the defender's lateral scrambling-to-catch-up momentum by elevating directly off the dribble into a jumper.........he would do something like pick up the ball and stop, pause (waiting for his man to recover him), then pump-fake, pivot, pump-fake, pivot back, pump-fake one or two more times (by this point his man is bodied up and absolutely in his drawers), and then pull up into a HEAVILY-contested extremely difficult jumper from this dead-stop position.

And Kobe could make those probably better than anyone......but they're still just terrible shots, no matter who you are. And speaking for myself, it seemed [to me] like he took an awful lot of those types [or something similar] in spots where the defense didn't force him into it: he seemingly forced himself into it voluntarily.

Yup. All of that. I think it was a point of pride with him, a demonstration of proficiency, in his mind. Same with the isos. Kind of like with Carmelo. Kobe looked for certain things, like heat checks and what have you, very classic sort of stuff that makes coaches tear out their hair. Jordan seemed more about getting to his spots, getting his shot, or using a counter if he couldn't get the initial shot he wanted. That made a difference. Kobe sort of typified the macho myth built around Jordan which never truly described how MJ actually played.

[NO-KG-AI]

As for the stamina thing, I think that's another thing that Kobe absolutely topped out to the best of his ability. His conditioning was fantastic, but I do think Jordan had a natural stamina gift that allowed him to play more explosively for longer. He just was making more fast twitch, explosive motions a lot more often, on both ends IMO.

[Warspite]

Kobe was not a better 3p shooter than Michael, he was a more willing one. Mike only had 2 seasons where he shot 3 in volume, with the full 3p line, about 3 per game in '90 and '93 in which he shot overall .364. Kobe had many seasons where he shot 3 tres per game or more. If we go from age 24 to 33 he was shooting 4.7 per game on .342 average. The playoffs basically follow these trends as well. The other seasons where MJ is shooting one long shot a game just aren't a good statistical basis

How many of those 1 3pa were half court shots of MJs were at the end of a quarter? I dont think the Blazers thought MJ was a bad 3pt shooter after they faced him in 92.

[Asianiac_24]

First-peat Jordan was better simply because he was a much better athlete. He had peak Dwyane Wade first step, a higher vertical, and can finish in more ways because he had bigger hands.

Second-peat Jordan was much closer to peak Kobe, but the main difference IMO comes down to 2 things:

1. Shot selection
2. Quick decision making.

#1 is pretty self explanatory. Kobe took way too many long 2s that was on the line. It used to drive me crazy that Kobe can't just take a small step back and make it a 3 instead.

#2 is also a big culprit. When Kobe catch the ball in the post and the defender over commits to deflect the ball, Kobe would almost wait for the defender to get back to his position before making a move. MJ would simply spin off and get a dunk.