DPOY and All-Defense Thread 2023 (FINAL poll reset)

[Roger Murdock]

Mobley has been just incredible on defense man. It’s so clear that people are not watching games or dissecting the advanced metrics they’re blindly regurgitating. To lead a Cavs team with such lacking perimeter defense and a general lack of size outside of him and Allen to the #1 defense is so impressive. Watch a game and pay attention to the sheer amount of space he covers and threatens each possession.

every game I watch guards and wings that initiate the offense and run PnR salivate at the prospect of Mobley (or Allen) getting switched on them. Mobley gets cooked on the perimeter. It's not to say that he isn't talented. He clearly is. He's long and athletic. But like most every 4/5 he's got slower feet in space and gets cooked. Where he excels seems to be his ability to sometimes make up for getting cooked by blocking a few shots from behind and when he's parked down low and gets blocks in help defense or while guarding other 4s (the shallowest position in the NBA btw).

Congrats this might be the worst take I've seen in ages. Mobley might be the best big man I've ever seen when switched onto guards. Hes the top rated iso defender in the NBA. There are countless clips of him making fools of guards who try and beat him for 5-10 seconds before passing when they have nothing.

[ANTETOKOUNBROS]

I can’t wrap my mind around how good Mobley is on defense IQ side of things at his age. He will definitely win aone or a few when all said and done.

[LakersLegacy]

Not mentioned but Vanderbilt plays some of the most impressive hustle defense

I’m in need of a rim protector. So Giannis is really the ultimate defender. I know the little guys are in style right now for good reasons. But if I want to design a defense I’m wanting Giannis and all that effort, verticality, chase downs, energy and motor.

[ijspeelman]

I still love my guy Mobley, but I've been vying for it all year and its Brook imo. I don't think much has changed since I originally posted in this thread, but Brook remains a guy that players just do not want to challenge.

The best defense is denying the shooter from ever shooting in the first place which does not show up in the stat sheet. I personally think Brook is the best example of this phenomenon this year (vintage Gobert is my idea of the prime example). From what I've seen, players still attack Mobley and JJJ (even it results in a miss or a block), but Brook somehow with his size is great at positioning right where shooters don't want to shoot and they cannot get by him.

Is he benefitted by some absolutely elite defenders? Yes, but I don't want to take what he does away from him.

[toooskies]

I still love my guy Mobley, but I've been vying for it all year and its Brook imo. I don't think much has changed since I originally posted in this thread, but Brook remains a guy that players just do not want to challenge.

The best defense is denying the shooter from ever shooting in the first place which does not show up in the stat sheet. I personally think Brook is the best example of this phenomenon this year (vintage Gobert is my idea of the prime example). From what I've seen, players still attack Mobley and JJJ (even it results in a miss or a block), but Brook somehow with his size is great at positioning right where shooters don't want to shoot and they cannot get by him.

Is he benefitted by some absolutely elite defenders? Yes, but I don't want to take what he does away from him.

Well, there are some things that show up in the stat sheet for when a shooter doesn't even want to shoot it. If the other team doesn't get a shot up it's a turnover.

Sometimes they take a worse shot, which does show up, especially in those points-saved-at-the-rim metrics. But what doesn't show up ? Turnovers.

The Cavs play 95.7 possessions per game, give up 83.5 shot attempts, and force 15.6 turnovers. The Bucks play 100.5 possessions per game, give up 93.2 shots per game, and force 11.9 turnovers. Sure, the Bucks hold teams to lower eFG% on a shot, but it's made up for by the Cavs turning the other team over. (The Cavs give up 1-2 more free throws per game, which is another factor involved in the shot differential but only to a minor degree.)

Note that only 0.6 of those additional turnovers the Cavs force are due to steals-- i.e. they go unattributed in box score metrics. Maybe those are deflections or throwing a ball off the other team, which I'm sure Milwaukee gets too. But a good number of them are shot clock violations.

It's also relevant to note that the Cavs give up the fewest three pointers in the league, and part of that is because Evan Mobley leads the league in contested 3s. Even conceding that Lopez is the better, more fear-inducing rim protector is only looking at one aspect of defense (and Lopez's primary responsibility) when Mobley excels at most/all aspects of defense.

Who is the better defender, the guy who is asked to do one thing well and he's great at it, or the guy who is asked to do a lot of things and is very good at it all?

[ijspeelman]

I still love my guy Mobley, but I've been vying for it all year and its Brook imo. I don't think much has changed since I originally posted in this thread, but Brook remains a guy that players just do not want to challenge.

The best defense is denying the shooter from ever shooting in the first place which does not show up in the stat sheet. I personally think Brook is the best example of this phenomenon this year (vintage Gobert is my idea of the prime example). From what I've seen, players still attack Mobley and JJJ (even it results in a miss or a block), but Brook somehow with his size is great at positioning right where shooters don't want to shoot and they cannot get by him.

Is he benefitted by some absolutely elite defenders? Yes, but I don't want to take what he does away from him.

Well, there are some things that show up in the stat sheet for when a shooter doesn't even want to shoot it. If the other team doesn't get a shot up it's a turnover.

Sometimes they take a worse shot, which does show up, especially in those points-saved-at-the-rim metrics. But what doesn't show up ? Turnovers.

The Cavs play 95.7 possessions per game, give up 83.5 shot attempts, and force 15.6 turnovers. The Bucks play 100.5 possessions per game, give up 93.2 shots per game, and force 11.9 turnovers. Sure, the Bucks hold teams to lower eFG% on a shot, but it's made up for by the Cavs turning the other team over. (The Cavs give up 1-2 more free throws per game, which is another factor involved in the shot differential but only to a minor degree.)

Note that only 0.6 of those additional turnovers the Cavs force are due to steals-- i.e. they go unattributed in box score metrics. Maybe those are deflections or throwing a ball off the other team, which I'm sure Milwaukee gets too. But a good number of them are shot clock violations.

It's also relevant to note that the Cavs give up the fewest three pointers in the league, and part of that is because Evan Mobley leads the league in contested 3s. Even conceding that Lopez is the better, more fear-inducing rim protector is only looking at one aspect of defense (and Lopez's primary responsibility) when Mobley excels at most/all aspects of defense.

Who is the better defender, the guy who is asked to do one thing well and he's great at it, or the guy who is asked to do a lot of things and is very good at it all?

I see the DPOY award as an overall impact on the defense award and if a player does one thing the best and another does everything great, but the player who does one thing impacts his defense more then I think I have to go for that guy.

Bringing it back to Mobley versus Lopez, its really picking nits either way because if you take either out and replace them with a replacement level player both defenses would be much worse. Lopez isn't asked to guard the three point line (not that he is a slack out there when he is brought out) because they have a defensive gameplan and roster to allow them to do that. Mobley is asked to do that because Cavs want him to do that and is very good at it (he's actually had a lot of bad luck with opponent shooting luck against his close-outs at the beginning of the year versus last year and versus the end of this year).

Its not an exact science so I may be way off base, but my vote is still with Lopez (even if barely).

[INKtastic]

I still love my guy Mobley, but I've been vying for it all year and its Brook imo. I don't think much has changed since I originally posted in this thread, but Brook remains a guy that players just do not want to challenge.

The best defense is denying the shooter from ever shooting in the first place which does not show up in the stat sheet. I personally think Brook is the best example of this phenomenon this year (vintage Gobert is my idea of the prime example). From what I've seen, players still attack Mobley and JJJ (even it results in a miss or a block), but Brook somehow with his size is great at positioning right where shooters don't want to shoot and they cannot get by him.

Is he benefitted by some absolutely elite defenders? Yes, but I don't want to take what he does away from him.

Well, there are some things that show up in the stat sheet for when a shooter doesn't even want to shoot it. If the other team doesn't get a shot up it's a turnover.

Sometimes they take a worse shot, which does show up, especially in those points-saved-at-the-rim metrics. But what doesn't show up ? Turnovers.

The Cavs play 95.7 possessions per game, give up 83.5 shot attempts, and force 15.6 turnovers. The Bucks play 100.5 possessions per game, give up 93.2 shots per game, and force 11.9 turnovers. Sure, the Bucks hold teams to lower eFG% on a shot, but it's made up for by the Cavs turning the other team over. (The Cavs give up 1-2 more free throws per game, which is another factor involved in the shot differential but only to a minor degree.)

Note that only 0.6 of those additional turnovers the Cavs force are due to steals-- i.e. they go unattributed in box score metrics. Maybe those are deflections or throwing a ball off the other team, which I'm sure Milwaukee gets too. But a good number of them are shot clock violations.

It's also relevant to note that the Cavs give up the fewest three pointers in the league, and part of that is because Evan Mobley leads the league in contested 3s. Even conceding that Lopez is the better, more fear-inducing rim protector is only looking at one aspect of defense (and Lopez's primary responsibility) when Mobley excels at most/all aspects of defense.

Who is the better defender, the guy who is asked to do one thing well and he's great at it, or the guy who is asked to do a lot of things and is very good at it all?

I see the DPOY award as an overall impact on the defense award and if a player does one thing the best and another does everything great, but the player who does one thing impacts his defense more then I think I have to go for that guy.

Bringing it back to Mobley versus Lopez, its really picking nits either way because if you take either out and replace them with a replacement level player both defenses would be much worse. Lopez isn't asked to guard the three point line (not that he is a slack out there when he is brought out) because they have a defensive gameplan and roster to allow them to do that. Mobley is asked to do that because Cavs want him to do that and is very good at it (he's actually had a lot of bad luck with opponent shooting luck against his close-outs at the beginning of the year versus last year and versus the end of this year).

Its not an exact science so I may be way off base, but my vote is still with Lopez (even if barely).

I Lopez actually had more impact than Mobley, wouldn't Milwaukee, not Cleveland, have the #1 defense?

[Dacost]

I just think is insane that the best defender this year is not going to win bacially because of minutes play.

JJJ miss 24 games and average 27mpg a game because of the Grizzlies short minute coaching.

When you look at the stats and check the eye test he is way better then both Mobley and can do alot more then what Lopez does.

Last year he was 3rd and it looks he will be 3rd or 2nd this year.

Dude is going to be overdue to win one since he is just 22.

[ijspeelman]

I Lopez actually had more impact than Mobley, wouldn't Milwaukee, not Cleveland, have the #1 defense?

I'll be honest, I have been torn on this. You would also think that Brook has more help in Milwaukee with Giannis and Jrue, but I'd argue that its possible Mobley has more help than you'd think. The defensive rating with Mobley off the court has been 110.2 compared to 111.6 when he is on. +1.4 points per 100 scored more by the opponent when he is on the court.

Does this mean that we are overvaluing him? Hell no, he's a monster.

Its the same phenomenon that went on with Ja and the Grizzlies' net rating when he was on and off. The Grizzlies' had a solid bench unit to make up for Ja's absense. Even with the decrease in DRTG, our ORTG is much higher with him on so his net rating is higher when he is on and as I previously mentioned, Mobley on the floor has had some of the worst defensive shooting luck in the league for the beginning of the season.

Opponents shoot -7.7 point per 100 when Brook is on the floor versus off. Its a complicated stat as we've mentioned, but the Bucks don't really have a great bench defensive unit whereas the Cavs have Rubio, LeVert, Okoro (when he doesn't start), Wade (criminally underrated defensively), and Lamar Stevens (who is a good back-up for what Mobley does).

[toooskies]

I just think is insane that the best defender this year is not going to win bacially because of minutes play.

JJJ miss 24 games and average 27mpg a game because of the Grizzlies short minute coaching.

When you look at the stats and check the eye test he is way better then both Mobley and can do alot more then what Lopez does.

Last year he was 3rd and it looks he will be 3rd or 2nd this year.

Dude is going to be overdue to win one since he is just 22.

Eye test aside, JJJ has fouling problems that also keep his minutes down. He is a bad rebounder and he isn't getting teammates rebounds like Lopez has a claim to. And also, if you play fewer minutes you can play harder.

[HumbleRen]

JJJ/Lopez/Mobley are all deserving but Lopez is my clear cut winner IMO.

Absolute clinic that he put on this year, he's due for one as well.

[atlantabbq99]

Walker Kessler is clearly the 2023 DPOY

[mcfly1204]

Walker Kessler is clearly the 2023 DPOY

Is he even in the top 5?

[Ballerhogger]

Giving it to BroLo which something I never thought I’d see . Been great on defense .

[Roger Murdock]

Both Simmons and Russilo voted for Mobley

[VanWest82]

Mobley has been just incredible on defense man. It’s so clear that people are not watching games or dissecting the advanced metrics they’re blindly regurgitating. To lead a Cavs team with such lacking perimeter defense and a general lack of size outside of him and Allen to the #1 defense is so impressive. Watch a game and pay attention to the sheer amount of space he covers and threatens each possession.

every game I watch guards and wings that initiate the offense and run PnR salivate at the prospect of Mobley (or Allen) getting switched on them. Mobley gets cooked on the perimeter. It's not to say that he isn't talented. He clearly is. He's long and athletic. But like most every 4/5 he's got slower feet in space and gets cooked. Where he excels seems to be his ability to sometimes make up for getting cooked by blocking a few shots from behind and when he's parked down low and gets blocks in help defense or while guarding other 4s (the shallowest position in the NBA btw).

Congrats this might be the worst take I've seen in ages. Mobley might be the best big man I've ever seen when switched onto guards. Hes the top rated iso defender in the NBA. There are countless clips of him making fools of guards who try and beat him for 5-10 seconds before passing when they have nothing.

Mobley's a stud who played way more mins than the other candidates, and Cavs have #1 defense so he probably should win. But it's telling that Cavs played their best defense with Mobley off the floor. There are times when I watch Cavs and wonder if he's even the best defender on his own team. Okoro and Allen anchored some stout line ups.

[sircrocodile7]

I think Jrue Holiday should win one at some point. Dunno how smart has one and he doesnt. Just saying. Maybe next year.

[yoyoboy]

Mobley's a stud who played way more mins than the other candidates, and Cavs have #1 defense so he probably should win. But it's telling that Cavs played their best defense with Mobley off the floor. There are times when I watch Cavs and wonder if he's even the best defender on his own team. Okoro and Allen anchored some stout line ups.

It’s the opponent 3P shooting luck working against Mobley. Worst in the league in terms of disparity with him on versus off if I recall correctly. It’s been regressing to the mean all season, but opponent 3P shooting takes more than one season worth of data to actually stabilize and so you can’t take it at face value, which is why stats like Luck-Adjusted RAPM account for that. Considering he’s statistically contested the highest number of 3 point attempts of any player in the entire league this year and he didn’t suffer from such bad opponent shooting luck in his lineup stats last year, it’s clear it’s just noise.

Okoro is good but he’s a one-trick pony. Great 1 on-1 defender, so long as his matchup isn’t above ~6’6 or too quick. But he’s not providing much help defense, steals, or rebounds so his impact is limited. And then Allen is great at what he does, but he’s not as switchable as Mobley and can’t cover as much ground to close off advantages for the other team. Mobley is very clearly the defensive anchor of this team, and since he only missed three games this season and when he did play, the opponent 3P shooting luck worked so severely against him, lineup stats and impact metrics aren’t accurately capturing how much he means to this team.

Guys like Okoro, Allen, Wade, Garland, Stevens, Cedi, and even Coach JB were all here in the 2021 season when the Cavs had the 25th ranked defense in the league. Going from 2.1 points BELOW league average in DRTG that season to 4.2 points ABOVE league average this season is owed in part to improvement defensively from all those guys, but it’s mostly the Mobley addition that completely transformed this team. And his abilities to seamlessly play the role of an elite help defense PF next to Allen and then also anchor elite defensive units as the backline while playing the 5 (something he didn’t do well last year but has been very good at this year now that he’s added strength) give the team so much flexibility.

[BostonCouchGM]

Mobley's a stud who played way more mins than the other candidates, and Cavs have #1 defense so he probably should win. But it's telling that Cavs played their best defense with Mobley off the floor. There are times when I watch Cavs and wonder if he's even the best defender on his own team. Okoro and Allen anchored some stout line ups.

It’s the opponent 3P shooting luck working against Mobley. Worst in the league in terms of disparity with him on versus off if I recall correctly. It’s been regressing to the mean all season, but opponent 3P shooting takes more than one season worth of data to actually stabilize and so you can’t take it at face value, which is why stats like Luck-Adjusted RAPM account for that. Considering he’s statistically contested the highest number of 3 point attempts of any player in the entire league this year and he didn’t suffer from such bad opponent shooting luck in his lineup stats last year, it’s clear it’s just noise.

Okoro is good but he’s a one-trick pony. Great 1 on-1 defender, so long as his matchup isn’t above ~6’6 or too quick. But he’s not providing much help defense, steals, or rebounds so his impact is limited. And then Allen is great at what he does, but he’s not as switchable as Mobley and can’t cover as much ground to close off advantages for the other team. Mobley is very clearly the defensive anchor of this team, and since he only missed three games this season and when he did play, the opponent 3P shooting luck worked so severely against him, lineup stats and impact metrics aren’t accurately capturing how much he means to this team.

Guys like Okoro, Allen, Wade, Garland, Stevens, Cedi, and even Coach JB were all here in the 2021 season when the Cavs had the 25th ranked defense in the league. Going from 2.1 points BELOW league average in DRTG that season to 4.2 points ABOVE league average this season is owed in part to improvement defensively from all those guys, but it’s mostly the Mobley addition that completely transformed this team. And his abilities to seamlessly play the role of an elite help defense PF next to Allen and then also anchor elite defensive units as the backline while playing the 5 (something he didn’t do well last year but has been very good at this year now that he’s added strength) give the team so much flexibility.

Pretty sure Mobley was on their team last season unless you’re referring to the 20/21 season. But the improvement could also be due to Love being off the floor and Allen there for the full season. Giving most of the credit to Mobley is generous and convenient. And just because things go against the narrative that you’re trying to spread doesn’t make it “noise”. Maybe the reason he contests so many threes is because guys so easily create separation to shoot them while he’s guarding them because he’s not a great perimeter defender like I said? He sags a lot against quicker guys and in the PnR because he’s incapable of keeping up. Again, it’s a problem most 4/5 have so it’s not an indictment on Mobley. But it does show that he’s not any different and shouldn’t be viewed as a great perimeter defender which should take him out of the running for DPOY. “But what about Gobert?” Well, the difference is he was just that much more dominant down low due to his strength, when he was winning DPOY.

[yoyoboy]

Pretty sure Mobley was on their team last season unless you’re referring to the 20/21 season.

Yes, 2021 season means 2020-2021. Just like this is the 2023 season.

But the improvement could also be due to Love being off the floor and Allen there for the full season.

From the time of acquiring Allen until the end of the season, the Cavs’ defense actually ranked 28th in the league, so it was actually worse afterwards. And this is a 51/72 game sample size.

Love played 620 minutes in the 20-21 season. And 821 minutes this season with the Cavs lol. So once again, you probably should have actually done a little research before just throwing out guesses.

Giving most of the credit to Mobley is generous and convenient. And just because things go against the narrative that you’re trying to spread doesn’t make it “noise”. Maybe the reason he contests so many threes is because guys so easily create separation to shoot them while he’s guarding them because he’s not a great perimeter defender like I said?

I mean then unfortunately you just don’t seem to be educated on how noisy these 5-versus-5 lineup stats actually are. Once again you’re just throwing out guesses and it makes it obvious you haven’t watched much of Mobley or delved into anything beyond the surface level of the stats. I guess Kevin Love, who can’t even move to contest threes anymore, is a better perimeter defender than Mobley because opponents shot 2% worse from three with him on versus off. And Mobley must have all of a sudden just become a much worse 3P defender this year compared to last year, right? Opponents shot 6% better from three with Mobley on the versus off this year but it was only 1.5% last year.

He sags a lot against quicker guys and in the PnR because he’s incapable of keeping up. Again, it’s a problem most 4/5 have so it’s not an indictment on Mobley. But it does show that he’s not any different and shouldn’t be viewed as a great perimeter defender which should take him out of the running for DPOY. “But what about Gobert?” Well, the difference is he was just that much more dominant down low due to his strength, when he was winning DPOY.

Maybe you should ask yourself if your eye test is potentially wrong considering you seem to think Mobley and Allen both can’t guard the perimeter or the PnR, and Garland and Mitchell are poor defenders at the point of attack, yet somehow the Cavs had the #1 defense in the league by a pretty clear margin. You do see how these things can’t possibly add up, right?