How good was Dolph Schayes?

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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#21 » by 70sFan » Tue Sep 1, 2020 11:50 am

I decided to bump this thread since I've made quite a few videos about 1950s stars:

Carl Braun



The first big guard in the NBA, known for his outstanding outside shot and athleticism.

Kenny Sears



Very efficient combo forward who did most of his damage without the ball. Seemed to had nice shooting touch as well.

Paul Arizin



Probably the first true swingman superstar, Arizin was known for his shooting ability but he was also an excellent jumper and very solid slasher. He used his jumpshot in similar way to Harden - to initiate contact and draw fouls.

Dolph Schayes



One of the best players of his era, Schayes was outstanding FT shooter who used his rainbow setshot to draw defenders away from the basket and make himself more space for driving. The master of floaters and soft finishes, Schayes was also outstanding at using his weaker hand - you can see him using left a lot in this video.

Bob Cousy



Most people know how Cousy played, but I made a video with some circus shots from him just for fun ;)
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#22 » by Owly » Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:22 pm

Owly wrote:Firstly thanks 70sFan for sharing this.

trex_8063 wrote:So either that "6" credited on bbref is another mistake/typo/mis-log; or if it's legit that completely blows up this myth that assists were harder to come by then.

One small data point (one player, one game) couldn't come close to "completely blow[ing] up" a myth (or not), when we're looking at such a scale. At least, to my mind.

What it might offer mild anecdotal support for is bad and/or biased score-keeping.

To me this is more a data question than a small sample watching question, at least in the first instance. What percentage of made baskets are credited as assisted. That's the best low-effort big picture guide.

From there (if you have the man-hours) if a lesser proportion of made field goals then you can ask is it a tighter threshold or are a higher proportion of shots in this era non-assisted (by whatever threshold you deem a "real" assist) and compare the real-to-official ratio of then with other eras you deem relevant though sufficiently genuinely full game footage from the 60s might be hard to come by to get a worthwhile sample (and getting a representative sample harder since you're likely to be getting Boston games).

1 player, 1 game, no control/comparison group ... not so persuasive, imo. Sorry for the digression, I can see you've put a lot of time into looking at the game and it might have been a throwaway line.

This post was bumped to my attention and it reminded me of something that I would have read when originally posting but , whether I've reread or just more easily happened to be available to mind.

It depends what one mean by "then" ... but I think I 90s Stats Inc study vindicated that the 60s were hard to get assists in ... but if people had assumed that that was part of a linear progression for a period ... that was very wrong. I think it was much higher in the 50s but I'll get the study, think it checked percentage of baskets assisted in a sample year every 5 years.
Yeah they have the percentages as follows
49: .641
54: .725
59: .485
64: .499
69: .532
74: .572
79: .579
84: .602
89: .601
94: .620

One could theorize the shot clock did it but the timing of the drop doesn't align neatly. The Stats Inc study says
That season's assist percentage was no fluke, either. Of the eight seasons with the highest percentage of assists to field goals, all were in the eight-year period between the 1948-49 and 1955-56 seasons.

So the shift doesn't occur when the clock goes. Looking at the back of the book for the fuller data there are two major leaps:
up
47-48: .258
48-49: .641

down
55-56: .687
56-57: .525
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#23 » by ZeppelinPage » Sat Apr 15, 2023 11:56 pm

Owly wrote:This post was bumped to my attention and it reminded me of something that I would have read when originally posting but , whether I've reread or just more easily happened to be available to mind.

It depends what one mean by "then" ... but I think I 90s Stats Inc study vindicated that the 60s were hard to get assists in ... but if people had assumed that that was part of a linear progression for a period ... that was very wrong. I think it was much higher in the 50s but I'll get the study, think it checked percentage of baskets assisted in a sample year every 5 years.
Yeah they have the percentages as follows
49: .641
54: .725
59: .485
64: .499
69: .532
74: .572
79: .579
84: .602
89: .601
94: .620

One could theorize the shot clock did it but the timing of the drop doesn't align neatly. The Stats Inc study says
That season's assist percentage was no fluke, either. Of the eight seasons with the highest percentage of assists to field goals, all were in the eight-year period between the 1948-49 and 1955-56 seasons.

So the shift doesn't occur when the clock goes. Looking at the back of the book for the fuller data there are two major leaps:
up
47-48: .258
48-49: .641

down
55-56: .687
56-57: .525


Think it might be because the league started getting more strict with assists after APG exploded in '55 and '56:

APG Season Averages
1949: 18.6
1950: 19.6
1951: 21.0
1952: 21.9
1953: 21.0
1954: 20.3
1955: 23.6
1956: 24.3
1957: 18.9
1958: 19.6
1959: 19.6

1960: 22.6
1961: 24.2

From '57-'59, the assist rate plummets to 1949 levels even though the pace would have been significantly higher with the shot clock. Assists were essentially harder to acquire. I haven't been able to find more information about why and how assists were being counted differently but it seems like there was a shift making assists extremely strict for a short period. This is why Cousy for instance declines by 1.4 APG in 1957 seemingly out of nowhere. Also, the pace in 1959 was at 119 and the league was only counting one more assist per game compared to 1949 so it was a considerable drop in assists.

Judging by the 1949 percentage listed and comparing it to 1957, the assist change most likely had something to do with the amount of dribbles a player could make for an assist to be counted--since players in 1957 were dribbling the ball considerably more.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#24 » by penbeast0 » Sun Apr 16, 2023 12:48 am

70sFan wrote:I decided to bump this thread since I've made quite a few videos about 1950s stars:...


Didn't realize Braun was that big, always though of Tom Gola as the first really big guard but he didn't come into the league until mid 50s.

Nice to see Kenny Sears get a mention. Not a guy I ever read about or anything but he keeps coming up on stat searches as one of the most efficient scorers of the era.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#25 » by prolific passer » Sun Apr 16, 2023 1:19 am

If it wasn't for Pettit. Schayes might have gone down as the prototypical power forward. Between him, Gallatin, and Mikkelsen.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#26 » by penbeast0 » Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:56 am

prolific passer wrote:If it wasn't for Pettit. Schayes might have gone down as the prototypical power forward. Between him, Gallatin, and Mikkelsen.


First true stretch big 4 maybe; prototypical for me is Vern Mikkelsen type banger/defender with limited offensive skills. The guys who add something extra like Schayes or Pettit are the special ones.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#27 » by Owly » Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:49 am

ZeppelinPage wrote:
Owly wrote:This post was bumped to my attention and it reminded me of something that I would have read when originally posting but , whether I've reread or just more easily happened to be available to mind.

It depends what one mean by "then" ... but I think I 90s Stats Inc study vindicated that the 60s were hard to get assists in ... but if people had assumed that that was part of a linear progression for a period ... that was very wrong. I think it was much higher in the 50s but I'll get the study, think it checked percentage of baskets assisted in a sample year every 5 years.
Yeah they have the percentages as follows
49: .641
54: .725
59: .485
64: .499
69: .532
74: .572
79: .579
84: .602
89: .601
94: .620

One could theorize the shot clock did it but the timing of the drop doesn't align neatly. The Stats Inc study says
That season's assist percentage was no fluke, either. Of the eight seasons with the highest percentage of assists to field goals, all were in the eight-year period between the 1948-49 and 1955-56 seasons.

So the shift doesn't occur when the clock goes. Looking at the back of the book for the fuller data there are two major leaps:
up
47-48: .258
48-49: .641

down
55-56: .687
56-57: .525


Think it might be because the league started getting more strict with assists after APG exploded in '55 and '56:

APG Season Averages
1949: 18.6
1950: 19.6
1951: 21.0
1952: 21.9
1953: 21.0
1954: 20.3
1955: 23.6
1956: 24.3
1957: 18.9
1958: 19.6
1959: 19.6

1960: 22.6
1961: 24.2

From '57-'59, the assist rate plummets to 1949 levels even though the pace would have been significantly higher with the shot clock. Assists were essentially harder to acquire. I haven't been able to find more information about why and how assists were being counted differently but it seems like there was a shift making assists extremely strict for a short period. This is why Cousy for instance declines by 1.4 APG in 1957 seemingly out of nowhere. Also, the pace in 1959 was at 119 and the league was only counting one more assist per game compared to 1949 so it was a considerable drop in assists.

Judging by the 1949 percentage listed and comparing it to 1957, the assist change most likely had something to do with the amount of dribbles a player could make for an assist to be counted--since players in 1957 were dribbling the ball considerably more.

Would say; as alluded to above that the strictness wasn't really for what I'd call a short period. As you nod to, pace was booming ... whilst '61 is a mini outlier, (being above .525, not seen again until 68-69 and from 69-70 we're going to [at least] be circa .550) the real terms assisting/interpretation strictness hovering around (usually, but not always, a little over) .500 for a decade. So whilst hidden in raw terms by the pace explosion and efficiency increases (average team makes 35.9 fgm in '57, up to 45.4 in '61, 45.9 in 62 [that last increase only via improved efficiency, fga went slightly down] I would say that for a little over a decade real-terms assists were down, most likely (I think), as you note, due to a stricter definition/interpretation.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#28 » by prolific passer » Sun Apr 16, 2023 10:04 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
prolific passer wrote:If it wasn't for Pettit. Schayes might have gone down as the prototypical power forward. Between him, Gallatin, and Mikkelsen.


First true stretch big 4 maybe; prototypical for me is Vern Mikkelsen type banger/defender with limited offensive skills. The guys who add something extra like Schayes or Pettit are the special ones.

What about Gallatin? First bruiser, defensive, rebounding power forward? He was probably the one who guarded Mikan in those finals due to his strength.
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#29 » by pdevos » Mon Apr 17, 2023 1:25 am

# Athleticism, Creating Shots
Shows great coordination for a big with either hand for 1950s. Moves a lot without the ball and does seem to show, relative to era, a good sense for openings and when he can get open. Explosive on drives compared to most athletes in that era. He was also 1st or 2nd in FTM 6x in his career. Drawing 7.9 FTA for 34.4 mpg. Has very good Adjusted Shooting relative to league, including 168 and 206 in 1957 and 1958. He generally finished 3, 5, or 7th for the first part of his career. Drawing contact with shooting efficiency generally translates very well from league to league vs low FTr players.

He credits his style of play -- constantly moving to playing on the streets in Bronx NY:

“Even though I was really tall, I never played inside because in the three-on-three game, it was frowned upon,” Schayes said. “We just played the pure game of pass, cut, pick-and-roll, spread the floor. It was a game of motion. It was a game of movement. So we moved, and I moved and learned the playground game.”

"Guys hated to play against me because my stock in trade was constant movement. I was quick but not fast so I would move my defender into picks, from one end of the court to another and wear him out until I had him tired and off-guard. If we were both moving I had the advantage, because I could switch directions when I got the ball and he would be off balance. And I had an excellent running shot and great anticipation."

He sounds like he'd thrive in a Steve Kerr like offense.

# Shooting, Hand Eye Coordination
Top 1% elite hand-eye coordination. Shot over 89% FT 4x in his career as well as finishing 1st or 2nd in the NBA 8x in his career. If you take the top 2 FT% guys every year in 3P% you're looking at a 38-45% range per season. Marc Gasol, Al Horford, Brook Lopez, Channing Frye and many other guys who don't shoot as well on FTs adapted over just a few years to make 100+ 3s on 38-45%.

# Rebounding
Schayes rebounding was quite good for his era. Although not a Center, overall he was bigger (6-8, 220) relative to others for his era where the avg height in 50s was 6-4 to 6-5 on the backend of his career. Much of NBA it's been 6-6 to 6-7. The avg weight was 195 and for much of the NBA it's been 205-220 at that 6-6 to 6-7 height.

# Avoiding Revisionist History
Schayes made Silver Anniversary team 1971, 1997 Top 50, and 2022 Top 75 -- so seems to have respect of lots of those with a good grasp of history over a long period of time. Sometimes numbers can look really good on paper but not recall how well the player did to influence games. Schayes team's won 56% of the games he played in.

# Passing
Assists were hard to come by in much of the 50s, and into the 60s even as I believe Oscar Robertson said if you dribbled after receiving a pass it wasn't an assist. Even so, Dolph averaged 3 assists per 34 minutes for his career in which the league aggregate FG% was 38.8% during his playing time. So much harder conversion rate for assists and anecdotally, more baskets than ever came from [unassisted] putbacks via ORebs.

# Forward Looking to the Modern Era
Image Dolph being 12 years old and shooting up with a 2-handed shooting form (it was taught/common then) and you have a chance to mold him into the best player today. It seems his game would translate very well given his ball-handling skills (with either hand), hand-eye coordination, shooting/finishing with either hand. Given his body composition/muscle definition in that era, you could probably assume his body type responds well to training as he had one of the more muscular physiques of that era.

To me, he had some Kiki Vandeweghe feeling for comps given that explosion on dribble drives with the outside shooting. But he has more passing awareness, better rebounder, and doubt many today know who Kiki was. He seems much quicker and more explosion than many "typical" comps today. His moving without the ball says, Golden State or San Antonio for comps. Ginobili would be closest perhaps if trying to match that way. He draws more fouls (FTr) than most typical comps and rebounds better than most SFs. Paul Pierce with better shooting like profile might be a best outcome.

Adjusted Shooting:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/schaydo01.html

Season Avgs:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html

NYT Article:
https://archive.ph/igSG4#selection-549.0-549.313

Physique:
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/12/11/sports/11DOLPHweb2/11DOLPHweb2-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale

Interview:
http://alanpaul.net/2015/12/rip-dolph-schayes-an-interview-with-the-big-man/
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Re: How good was Dolph Schayes? 

Post#30 » by shakes0 » Mon Apr 17, 2023 6:49 pm

GOAT Jewish basketball player.

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