Peak-Domantas Sabonis VS Demarcus Cousins

[SNPA]

Watch on YouTube

Chart the shots in this one game, come back and say he isn’t one the the most skilled centers. He got threes (38% at the time), he hit a skyhook, he a hit finger roll, he led a full court break (off a one handed rebound), he hit step backs, including a step back three, PnR, PnP, iso, jab step, drives, jumpers, he posted, hesitation, putback, crossovers, spins, up and under, go left, right, low, mid, high, open court…he got ejected, he got allowed back into the game after being ejected, his team wins the game on him contesting a Dame three, and he got his mic turned off in the post game interview (not shown in this video).

He shot 17 for 28 from the field, went 5 for 8 from beyond the arc, was 15 for 17 from the free-throw line and collected 13 rebounds and recorded three blocks. They played behind him, they fronted him, they denied him and they doubled him. He had skills to match all of it.

It’s ridiculous.

[GSP]

Cousins. He was best Center in the league until he injured his Achilles. Pelicans were on the roll and beat Rockets in that game he got injured. People blamed Cousins for Kings struggles but it was unfair. If he didn't injure his Achilles he would make HOF.

He was prolly the best center for a few seasons.........but who was his competition? Timmy in his late 30s? Marc Gasol? Vucevic? Deandre Jordan? Al Horford?

There have been some of if not the weakest historical years ever for the center position from the mid 2000s to 2010s

[McBubbles]

Cousins is the more talented player.

Sabonis is the harder working player.

It depends on what you need, who is the coach, etc.

People like to downplay Cousins. At his peak he is as skilled offensively as almost any center ever. Just a beast. His defense is hurt by the changing era. Cousins comes of age as the three point era does, which hurts centers in general and certainly centers like Cousins. Put Cousins in the league ten years earlier and…

I don't agree with this . His "skills" were all star level, not ATG level.

He was great at getting to the rim, getting there between 8-9 times a game between 2014-2018, but routinely converted less than 60% of his shots, which is pretty bad.

His paint percentage reached 40% once in that time span, routinely being between 36%-38%, which is mediocre.

His mid-range percentage reached 40% once in that time span, routinely being between 35%-38% which is ass.

Of the 11 seasons he was in the league, he averaged equal to or more turnovers than assists for 9 of them. Pretty ass.

Boogie's best strengths were his decent 3 point percentages for a big man (averaged 36% on approximately 6 attempts per game from 2017-2018), his free throw rate and his rebounding. His actual "skill level" wasn't anything to write home about imo. Being mediocre at several things < being good at less things. It's my issue with people saying Kobe is the most "skilled" scorer of all time. If the term "skilled" just means "can do things" but doesn't mean "can do things effectively and impactfully" then idk what we're talking about at that point.

Sans rebounding Blake Griffin was basically better than Boogie on every area of the court, including eventually 3 point shooting. Don't hear anyone hype him up like people do Boogie though, not at the time or now ._.

Hell, 2011 Dwight Howard was better around the rim, in the paint and from midrange than 2018 Demarcus Cousins, whilst on higher the volume in all of these areas mind you, whilst also doubling Boogie's OREB, yet I only ever hear people talk about how Dwight sucked and is one of the LEAST offensively talented centers ever.

Boogie's RAPM is also in line with that of an all star / fringe All-NBA 3rd teamer.

A combination of Cousins being the best player on bad teams allowing him to put up big box score numbers, him doing "skilled" things at a high volume like mid range shooting or ball handling, and him peaking in one of the worst time periods for centers from 2014-2018 led to NBA media hyping him up to be some sort of great What If™ player, when in reality his ceiling in a perfectly ideal environment was probably an efficient 22/12/3 guy with average defence. Which is good mind you, top 6-12 player, but not ATG center good, especially not most talented offensive bigman ever good.

His teams sucked. His coaches sucked. His owners sucked. His mentors sucked. His attitude sucked. Hell, even his arena sucked.

All that drags his efficiency down, which is your basic point.

It doesn’t drag down his skill level. Boogie had skill all over the floor, in all kinds of ways. He is more skilled than Sabonis, that doesn’t make him more conducive to winning.

Also note I said almost any center, I didn’t put him at the top.

Bruh, you literally just proved my point. You're not a skilled player if you miss all your skills I don't care about the fact he CAN sky hook and finger roll and step back if it only goes in 35% of the time. Kobe Bryant isn't a more skilled scorer than Michael Jordan because he misses in more ways than him. Boogie isn't one of the most offensively skilled centers in the league because he misses fancier shots and can use his fancy handles bigman to get more turnovers than other bigs.

But most importantly like I said his impact stats were never anything to write home about. Even if I think he COULD have been what you're talking about, we don't have evidence for it. He played with Jrue Holiday and AD in 2018 yet nothing really changed.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Cousins. He was best Center in the league until he injured his Achilles. Pelicans were on the roll and beat Rockets in that game he got injured. People blamed Cousins for Kings struggles but it was unfair. If he didn't injure his Achilles he would make HOF.

He was prolly the best center for a few seasons.........but who was his competition? Timmy in his late 30s? Marc Gasol? Vucevic? Deandre Jordan? Al Horford?

There have been some of if not the weakest historical years ever for the center position from the mid 2000s to 2010s

Marc definitely was better than him, I don't think it was particularly close

[SNPA]

I don't agree with this . His "skills" were all star level, not ATG level.

He was great at getting to the rim, getting there between 8-9 times a game between 2014-2018, but routinely converted less than 60% of his shots, which is pretty bad.

His paint percentage reached 40% once in that time span, routinely being between 36%-38%, which is mediocre.

His mid-range percentage reached 40% once in that time span, routinely being between 35%-38% which is ass.

Of the 11 seasons he was in the league, he averaged equal to or more turnovers than assists for 9 of them. Pretty ass.

Boogie's best strengths were his decent 3 point percentages for a big man (averaged 36% on approximately 6 attempts per game from 2017-2018), his free throw rate and his rebounding. His actual "skill level" wasn't anything to write home about imo. Being mediocre at several things < being good at less things. It's my issue with people saying Kobe is the most "skilled" scorer of all time. If the term "skilled" just means "can do things" but doesn't mean "can do things effectively and impactfully" then idk what we're talking about at that point.

Sans rebounding Blake Griffin was basically better than Boogie on every area of the court, including eventually 3 point shooting. Don't hear anyone hype him up like people do Boogie though, not at the time or now ._.

Hell, 2011 Dwight Howard was better around the rim, in the paint and from midrange than 2018 Demarcus Cousins, whilst on higher the volume in all of these areas mind you, whilst also doubling Boogie's OREB, yet I only ever hear people talk about how Dwight sucked and is one of the LEAST offensively talented centers ever.

Boogie's RAPM is also in line with that of an all star / fringe All-NBA 3rd teamer.

A combination of Cousins being the best player on bad teams allowing him to put up big box score numbers, him doing "skilled" things at a high volume like mid range shooting or ball handling, and him peaking in one of the worst time periods for centers from 2014-2018 led to NBA media hyping him up to be some sort of great What If™ player, when in reality his ceiling in a perfectly ideal environment was probably an efficient 22/12/3 guy with average defence. Which is good mind you, top 6-12 player, but not ATG center good, especially not most talented offensive bigman ever good.

His teams sucked. His coaches sucked. His owners sucked. His mentors sucked. His attitude sucked. Hell, even his arena sucked.

All that drags his efficiency down, which is your basic point.

It doesn’t drag down his skill level. Boogie had skill all over the floor, in all kinds of ways. He is more skilled than Sabonis, that doesn’t make him more conducive to winning.

Also note I said almost any center, I didn’t put him at the top.

Bruh, you literally just proved my point. You're not a skilled player if you miss all your skills I don't care about the fact he CAN sky hook and finger roll and step back if it only goes in 35% of the time. Kobe Bryant isn't a more skilled scorer than Michael Jordan because he misses in more ways than him. Boogie isn't one of the most offensively skilled centers in the league because he misses fancier shots and can use his fancy handles bigman to get more turnovers than other bigs.

But most importantly like I said his impact stats were never anything to write home about. Even if I think he COULD have been what you're talking about, we don't have evidence for it. He played with Jrue Holiday and AD in 2018 yet nothing really changed.

You are conflating skill with efficiency to a maximalist degree.

Is one trick pony player that is highly efficient at that one skill (Reggie Evans rebounding) more skilled than Boogie? Of course not.

[tsherkin]

You are conflating skill with efficiency to a maximalist degree.

Is one trick pony player that is highly efficient at that one skill (Reggie Evans rebounding) more skilled than Boogie? Of course not.

I think you might be overlooking his point, though. BREADTH of skill means nothing without a given threshold of effectiveness in that skill. Choosing to do something doesn't necessarily mean you are good at it, or that it is a good idea. Cousins was a turnover and foul factory who shot from further out than he should have on a regular basis, and then eventually traded his inconsistent, mediocre long 2s for inconsistent, mediocre 3s to some positive benefit. Kind of Rasheed Wallace-esque. He was, on average, an inefficient volume scorer, which isn't a desirable thing. He was, for years, inefficient in and around the paint but away from the rim. He wasn't a stunner on defense, though he wasn't horrible. He was an excellent rebounder. Using him as a focal volume scorer wasn't a really good idea, though of course the Kings didn't really have a lot of choice in the matter.

As far as the Kobe and "skilled scorer" stuff, I think he was probably a bad example. Kobe did have a lot of skills, but he was also prone to making really bad choices in shot selection, so he's a bit harder to evaluate. He surely did have good handles, a good jumper, good triple-threat skills, passed well enough to weaponize that as he drove, etc. He was very skilled. "Very skilled" vs "better as a scorer" aren't the same thing, and he wasn't the best collection of overall scoring skills in league history, so it makes sense that someone would argue against that label, but it's mostly a semantic one anyway.

Carmelo Anthony, I think is the banner example of breadth of skill failing to equate to skill value due to limited efficacy, though. He had all kinds of moves, and he was notably inferior to a wide variety of other scorers in his own time. He's a better illustration than Kobe, IMHO.

But yeah, with Cousins... him doing a lot of things is reflective of him trying stuff and that's great... but that mattered more in HS and college than it did at the NBA level because he was only so good at the things which he did. A mile wide and an inch deep isn't a competitive strategy at the NBA level.

[McBubbles]

His teams sucked. His coaches sucked. His owners sucked. His mentors sucked. His attitude sucked. Hell, even his arena sucked.

All that drags his efficiency down, which is your basic point.

It doesn’t drag down his skill level. Boogie had skill all over the floor, in all kinds of ways. He is more skilled than Sabonis, that doesn’t make him more conducive to winning.

Also note I said almost any center, I didn’t put him at the top.

Bruh, you literally just proved my point. You're not a skilled player if you miss all your skills I don't care about the fact he CAN sky hook and finger roll and step back if it only goes in 35% of the time. Kobe Bryant isn't a more skilled scorer than Michael Jordan because he misses in more ways than him. Boogie isn't one of the most offensively skilled centers in the league because he misses fancier shots and can use his fancy handles bigman to get more turnovers than other bigs.

But most importantly like I said his impact stats were never anything to write home about. Even if I think he COULD have been what you're talking about, we don't have evidence for it. He played with Jrue Holiday and AD in 2018 yet nothing really changed.

You are conflating skill with efficiency to a maximalist degree.

Is one trick pony player that is highly efficient at that one skill (Reggie Evans rebounding) more skilled than Boogie? Of course not.

If your skills lead to more impact then yes, if not, no.

And I'm not conflating skills with efficiency, I'm conflating them with effectiveness. How many shots do you have to miss before it's no longer considered "skilled"? If we follow your train of logic, if Boogie was exactly the same but was shooting 15%, then he'd still be one of the most skilled offensive centers of all time even though he'd be non-NBA caliber.

[Heej]

Yeah I'm not sure how you can look at Boogies handle and shotmaking along with passing at his size and not consider him more skilled than Sabonis. There was a point on the Pels where their best play was a Cousins-AD pnr with cousins as the ballhandler. That's Jokic type stuff. I don't think any other big man currently playing could pull that off.

[Texas Chuck]

Cousins had a lot of skill, but was a selfish player, who was never actually very effective in his high usage role. There is zero argument for him being a better team basketball player than Sabonis.

But I get some people fall in love with "Talent" and ignore how effective a player actually is. Cousins is like the poor man's big man version of TMac. The skillset wows you if you don't actually pay much attention, but any granular look shows this guy wasn't all that effective for his teams.

[wojoaderge]

Boogie was about to co-lead a team to the playoffs for the first time when he got injured, just like Pistol

[GSP]

Yeah I'm not sure how you can look at Boogies handle and shotmaking along with passing at his size and not consider him more skilled than Sabonis. There was a point on the Pels where their best play was a Cousins-AD pnr with cousins as the ballhandler. That's Jokic type stuff. I don't think any other big man currently playing could pull that off.

Scoring skillsets are light years apart too.

They are daring Sabonis to shoot, on faceup, pickandpop, inviting him to post up do anything and he looks as useless as Bam when he gets schemed

It feels like Cousins gave the Warriors more problems last year albeit in limited minutes

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

And its not like Cousins did that VS James Wiseman on the floor. Draymond or Looney were on the floor against him that entire highlight.

[Heej]

Yeah I'm not sure how you can look at Boogies handle and shotmaking along with passing at his size and not consider him more skilled than Sabonis. There was a point on the Pels where their best play was a Cousins-AD pnr with cousins as the ballhandler. That's Jokic type stuff. I don't think any other big man currently playing could pull that off.

Scoring skillsets are light years apart too.

They are daring Sabonis to shoot, on faceup, pickandpop, inviting him to post up do anything and he looks as useless as Bam when he gets schemed

It feels like Cousins gave the Warriors more problems last year albeit in limited minutes

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

And its not like Cousins did that VS James Wiseman on the floor. Draymond or Looney were on the floor against him that entire highlight.

Seriously it's a record scratch any time Sabonis gets the ball outside of 8 feet from the basket lol. He's not even in Cousins' stratosphere as a skill player

[tsherkin]

Seriously it's a record scratch any time Sabonis gets the ball outside of 8 feet from the basket lol. He's not even in Cousins' stratosphere as a skill player

That isn't accurate. He doesn't take those shots a lot, for sure, but...

Sabonis' shooting splits from 10-16 and 16-23 feet are 51.2% and 44.4% this year. They are 37.6% and 40.4% on his career. Cousins' career splits there are 34.5% and 37.8%.

[Heej]

Seriously it's a record scratch any time Sabonis gets the ball outside of 8 feet from the basket lol. He's not even in Cousins' stratosphere as a skill player

That isn't accurate. He doesn't take those shots a lot, for sure, but...

Sabonis' shooting splits from 10-16 and 16-23 feet are 51.2% and 44.4% this year. They are 37.6% and 40.4% on his career. Cousins' career splits there are 34.5% and 37.8%.

That's fine I'm aware of how he shoots out there on low volume. But when you watch him play he's NEVER a threat outside the paint. He's always looking for a handoff or maybe taking a bailout shot in the playoffs. And he never has anything close to a threatening drive in because he knows they're waiting to take the charge cuz all he has his in his bag is a shoulder charge. The confidence simply isn't there for him yet but once it clicks he'll be a problem.

[tsherkin]

That's fine I'm aware of how he shoots out there on low volume. But when you watch him play he's NEVER a threat outside the paint. He's always looking for a handoff or maybe taking a bailout shot in the playoffs. And he never has anything close to a threatening drive in because he knows they're waiting to take the charge cuz all he has his in his bag is a shoulder charge. The confidence simply isn't there for him yet but once it clicks he'll be a problem.

Sure, but why would he be when the rest of his team tends to occupy those spaces? Fox takes nearly a third of his shots there and any kind of wing penetration typically starts with movement around a screen and a dribble-drive toward the elbow. Why would Sabonis be in that space? If he can take nearly HALF of his shots inside of 3 feet, why would he choose not to do that? And another third of them from 3-10 feet, as he does? What value for him stepping out further more than he does?