Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[Guidus88]

If Connelly were to blow up the experiment, I still wonder if Portland might be an interesting trade partner. They have an interesting mix of youngish players with upside along with decent contracts. I think while maybe not a natural PG, Simons is someone who I think could fit alongside Edwards. Can't say I'd be excited about helping a division rival though.

A team like Chicago could offer an attractive young wing in Williams to team up with McDaniels. Same story with Toronto.

nice catch on P Williams. Nice defender, good 3pt shooters (41% on more than 3 attempts/game), played 82 games in RS although coming from a season ending injury on his wrist, 1.8 stocks, same timeline as Ant and Jaden, won't be a max player.

Any trade idea to get him?

[urinesane]

Oh no doubt, it was absolutely brutal at times... but anyone that has learned something new or attempted something they weren't naturally good at with the intention of becoming great, has had to deal with massive failure and extremely uncomfortable experiences. The difference between success and failure is usually based on those willing to push through the failure and discomfort, regardless of a lack of gratification in the interim.

We saw a team trying to not only adapt to a massive style shift, but also to their top guy being out for 52 games.

Most of us were expecting a 50+ win team and one that could make at least the 2nd round of the playoffs. The thing is, those expectations were based on the assumption that A.) they would adapt to Gobert relatively quickly. B.) That they wouldn't have major injury issues. C.) They would take what they learned from PatBev and keep the spark they had from last season and build it into a fire.

With those assumptions proving to be false, and how incredibly inconsistent this team was (shown by beating some of the best teams in the NBA on the road and losing to some of the worst at home)... based on the fact that it's taken a LONG time for most of the roster to adapt to Gobert's style of play AND their best player coming into the season missed 52 games... 42 wins sort of feels like a miracle (in hindsight).

Just think back, if you'd known those two factors going into it, what would our expectations have been? A playoff appearance and winning season would have seemed like quite the feat. It's just that they never really gave us much time to enjoy ourselves, because every winning streak was followed by a mind numbing losing streak, rinse and repeat. This was a very uncomfortable season for everyone involved.

The thing is... if we are upset/disappointed by this team, it's because we set expectations that were not based in reality. Then when reality showed us the truth, the level of pain/frustration is proportional to the difference between what you expected and what was (and how quickly you were able to reconcile the difference between the two).

If you didn't allow yourself to get too high or too low, it's a bit of a wash of a season, but all things considered it's been positive (mainly for the development of Ant, McDaniels, and Naz). The people crying the hardest for Finch's head, KAT/Gobert to be traded, Connelly to be ran out of town etc, also tend to be the people that had the highest expectations for this team (which as we have seen were based in hope, not reality) and rather than adapting to reality, are stuck trying to reconcile those expectations that were never met.

The thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned... I'm pretty sure if they had just run it back again this year (like many have wished for at times during the season) and KAT still misses 52 games, they are not in the playoffs right now. Which means they would probably be sh*tting on Connelly either way (though I don't think getting Gobert was a mistake, the overpay certainly was).

Regarding the underline, uh, what? There was a poll at the beginning of the season that asked where the Wolves end up. I believe the majority thought a top-4 seed. And rightfully so, no one can deny this is one of the most talented teams we've seen in franchise history. Last year's squad was a 7th seed.

Here's the thing, even with Towns' injury, Minnesota still had a reasonable chance at making fourth -- finished 3 games back of Phoenix. How many times did we see the team lose to lesser opponents, specifically the dross of the league? If you need a prime example, the team's game against Portland, who rested every starter. If Finch and the players could have got up for those games, expectations would have been met.

Remember, this year hasn't been a typical season for the Western Conference. It was there to be had, and a team like Sacto took it while the Wolves faltered.

Here's a life lesson that may help you outside of your basketball fandom.

Expectations are our hopeful and prejudiced view of the future and what it "should" be. When your expectations meet reality (i.e. what happens vs what you expected to happen) the amount of suffering you will experience is directly correlated to the difference between the two (and how much of your happiness you attach to those expectations coming to fruition).

I am not saying not to desire things or be hopeful (life would be pretty unappealing without them). The best thing you can do is to not attach your happiness to your desires.

The first mistake we make is attaching our happiness to our desires/expectations. The second is not seeing reality for what it is once it unfolds and presents itself (i.e. this was not a 50+ win team, nor a 2nd round playoff team).

We then try to explain it away in all sorts of ways to somehow act as if our expectations were not incorrect, but that somehow reality shouldn't have happened the way it did (which is an incredible waste of time and energy).

Your ability to adapt to this (or inability) will decide your level of happiness and enjoyment of life.

You can list a million reasons why something SHOULD have happened differently, the reality is that it DIDN'T.

Would you rather enjoy your life or spend your time justifying why your unhappiness is not only valid, but the correct response based on XYZ?

We do not control anything in this situation (being fans of a team) except our reaction to what happens. In life we have no control over anything that other people do/say etc, only our reaction to it. You are not responsible for them, but you are responsible for how you feel based on what they did.

That feeling is in YOU, it is not in the world. So feel free to hold onto your expectations and judge everything based on them, but when you feel mad about things out of your control, you only have yourself to blame.

If you want a great book on this subject (and others) that I think should be required listening/reading for all humans check out "Awareness" by Anthony DeMello (the audiobook is best imo because the book is a transcript of a lecture/talk he did).

[urinesane]

The thing is... if we are upset/disappointed by this team, it's because we set expectations that were not based in reality. Then when reality showed us the truth, the level of pain/frustration is proportional to the difference between what you expected and what was (and how quickly you were able to reconcile the difference between the two).

If you didn't allow yourself to get too high or too low, it's a bit of a wash of a season, but all things considered it's been positive (mainly for the development of Ant, McDaniels, and Naz). The people crying the hardest for Finch's head, KAT/Gobert to be traded, Connelly to be ran out of town etc, also tend to be the people that had the highest expectations for this team (which as we have seen were based in hope, not reality) and rather than adapting to reality, are stuck trying to reconcile those expectations that were never met.

Regarding the underline, uh, what? There was a poll at the beginning of the season that asked where the Wolves end up. I believe the majority thought a top-4 seed. And rightfully so, no one can deny this is one of the most talented teams we've seen in franchise history. Last year's squad was a 7th seed.

Here's the thing, even with Towns' injury, Minnesota still had a reasonable chance at making fourth -- finished 3 games back of Phoenix. How many times did we see the team lose to lesser opponents, specifically the dross of the league? If you need a prime example, the team's game against Portland, who rested every starter. If Finch and the players could have got up for those games, expectations would have been met.

Remember, this year hasn't been a typical season for the Western Conference. It was there to be had, and a team like Sacto took it while the Wolves faltered.

Agree with the expectations, if we weren't expecting a top 4 seed, then why made the Gobert trade? Also, we did have more than the usual bad opportunities missed games. SAC was lucky, if Fox or Sabonis was out as long as Towns, I think they would have the same season record as Wolves and NOP. It's expectations met if we go the 5th seed which is just 2 more wins against the losers.

Those expectations were based not only on getting Gobert, but also that it would "unlock" DLo (as if he was every going to be anything other than what he's always been), that the team would adapt and mesh with Gobert (and how you need to play with him) much more quickly than they did, and that KAT wouldn't miss 52 games.

When those variables change we need to adjust our expectations, otherwise we end up calling for the heads of our GM, Coach, and trading two star players because a team that has been THE WORST FRANCHISE IN NORTH AMERICAN SPORTS in their existence was not a top seed in the west this season (though they did make the playoffs for the 2nd straight year, for the first time in nearly 20 years) despite things not unfolding at all the way they expected when they made the trade (outside of Ant making a leap).

Notice that I am not saying anything that is not based in fact, things that actually happened (and being aware of what they THOUGHT would happen). The only difference between my posts and many others (who are suffering) is that I am adjusting what I originally had hoped for this team based on what actually happened.

They are looking for someone to blame/punish for what happened, so that they can remain justified in their original expectations without having to face reality. That sort of action (out of fear/pain) will only lead to more of it.

[urinesane]

Here's the thing, even with Towns' injury, Minnesota still had a reasonable chance at making fourth -- finished 3 games back of Phoenix. How many times did we see the team lose to lesser opponents, specifically the dross of the league? If you need a prime example, the team's game against Portland, who rested every starter. If Finch and the players could have got up for those games, expectations would have been met.

Remember, this year hasn't been a typical season for the Western Conference. It was there to be had, and a team like Sacto took it while the Wolves faltered.

Notice how you mentioned the games where they lost to teams that they should have beaten as the reason they didn't get a top 4 seed, but conveniently left out the longer list of games they won against teams they SHOULDN'T have beaten?

Those games they won put them in a position to even be in the discussion for 4th seed and yes, the bad games they had against bad teams kept them from achieving that... but had they not performed above expectation in those other games, they wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

If you only focus on the negative, you will only get part of the picture. You can't put your finger on the scale of the negative (or the positive) you have to look at it all and weigh them individually. It was a tough season for fans... but I'd argue that nearly every other year since KG was traded (which WAS the worst trade in franchise history) save for a few blips here and there, has been much tougher... the only thing that changed was US and our expectations.

The entire season was basically a fight to survive and it was exhausting for fans (and the players I'm sure as well), but they did survive... they made it to the playoffs. How quickly we forget what that would have meant to us just a few years ago...

[younggunsmn]

Notice how you mentioned the games where they lost to teams that they should have beaten as the reason they didn't get a top 4 seed, but conveniently left out the longer list of games they won against teams they SHOULDN'T have beaten?

That's because there are ZERO teams we SHOULDN'T have been capable of beating.
1. We have enough talent to beat any team
2. The Western Conference is as bad this year as it has been in more than 30 years.

Saying Timberwolves fans are just mad because they had outsized expectations is an utterly ridiculous take.
We won 46 games last year, then spent FIVE first round draft picks to add a supposed All-NBA player.
The front office clearly had expectations of being better than last year, and so should have the fans.
That means about 50 wins, a top 6 regular season finish, and winning one round in the playoffs.
Those are completely reasonable expectations going into the year.

We won 4 fewer games than last year, and barely made it into the playoffs.
Yes KAT got hurt, but we haven't been any better with him.
He's terrible in this playoff series and not even our 4th best player on the court at this point.

But it's HOW we are losing that is the most frustrating part.
Going ice cold in the 4th quarter and blowing big leads all season long.
Embarrassing mental mistakes.
Just look at the past monthL

Worst loss against the point spread in 30 years to Portland in a must-win game where KAT takes 3 shots.
Embarrassing beat down by the Lakers where the entire team implodes in the 2nd half.
Narrow victory against a beat up and injured Pelicans team where we had a fight in the huddle during a timeout and another player put himself out for the season punching a wall.
Another embarrassing meltdown against the Lakers on national TV where we score just 16 points in 17 minutes in the 4th quarter and overtime.
Relieving play-in win against a very young and raw Thunder team no one expected to even be there.
And another embarrassing 29 point beatdown on national TV against Denver followed by immediately getting down by 21 points in game 2.

Yes losing Jaden and Naz hurts, but you don't see good teams crying about missing a roleplayer or 2 in the 1st round.

There has been nothing wrong with fans expectations.
Our players and coaches and GM have LET US DOWN.
KAT is utterly crapping the bed for the third time in the playoffs.
The rest of the team has started to come alive, and hopefully we can make this a series.

For any other franchise a 1st round playoff loss is a disappointment.
How horrible this franchise has been in the past has no bearing on expectations for this year.
We mortgaged our entire future for this team, and financially can basically only afford to keep this core together for one more season.

[urinesane]

Notice how you mentioned the games where they lost to teams that they should have beaten as the reason they didn't get a top 4 seed, but conveniently left out the longer list of games they won against teams they SHOULDN'T have beaten?

That's because there are ZERO teams we SHOULDN'T have been capable of beating.
1. We have enough talent to beat any team
2. The Western Conference is as bad this year as it has been in more than 30 years.

Saying Timberwolves fans are just mad because they had outsized expectations is an utterly ridiculous take.
We won 46 games last year, then spent FIVE first round draft picks to add a supposed All-NBA player.
The front office clearly had expectations of being better than last year, and so should have the fans.
That means about 50 wins, a top 6 regular season finish, and winning one round in the playoffs.
Those are completely reasonable expectations going into the year.

We won 4 fewer games than last year, and barely made it into the playoffs.
Yes KAT got hurt, but we haven't been any better with him.
He's terrible in this playoff series and not even our 4th best player on the court at this point.

But it's HOW we are losing that is the most frustrating part.
Going ice cold in the 4th quarter and blowing big leads all season long.
Embarrassing mental mistakes.
Just look at the past monthL

Worst loss against the point spread in 30 years to Portland in a must-win game where KAT takes 3 shots.
Embarrassing beat down by the Lakers where the entire team implodes in the 2nd half.
Narrow victory against a beat up and injured Pelicans team where we had a fight in the huddle during a timeout and another player put himself out for the season punching a wall.
Another embarrassing meltdown against the Lakers on national TV where we score just 16 points in 17 minutes in the 4th quarter and overtime.
Relieving play-in win against a very young and raw Thunder team no one expected to even be there.
And another embarrassing 29 point beatdown on national TV against Denver followed by immediately getting down by 21 points in game 2.

Yes losing Jaden and Naz hurts, but you don't see good teams crying about missing a roleplayer or 2 in the 1st round.

There has been nothing wrong with fans expectations.
Our players and coaches and GM have LET US DOWN.
KAT is utterly crapping the bed for the third time in the playoffs.
The rest of the team has started to come alive, and hopefully we can make this a series.

For any other franchise a 1st round playoff loss is a disappointment.
How horrible this franchise has been in the past has no bearing on expectations for this year.
We mortgaged our entire future for this team, and financially can basically only afford to keep this core together for one more season.

That's a lot of text to say that you're justified in holding onto your expectations when you've been presented with something that shows those expectations were unfounded. The Wolves are who they are and you're unwilling to accept it.

Enjoy continuing to make yourself miserable for something out of your control.

You also proved my entire point in that post by only focusing on the negative (which you conveniently left out of the quote).

[Klomp]

Saying Timberwolves fans are just mad because they had outsized expectations is an utterly ridiculous take.
We won 46 games last year, then spent FIVE first round draft picks to add a supposed All-NBA player.
The front office clearly had expectations of being better than last year, and so should have the fans.
That means about 50 wins, a top 6 regular season finish, and winning one round in the playoffs.
Those are completely reasonable expectations going into the year.

I think this is exactly the point urinesane is making.

Saying "____ means _____" is absolutely about making expectations not set in reality.

Was 2016-17 worse than 2015-16 for Golden State? It must have been, since they lost six more games than the year before. What a disappointment!

Each season should stand on its own. There are so many different circumstances, I don't believe there is an even comparison to be made.

[TimberKat]

2) before this season I was expecting a lot from Towns in terms of decision making. Yes, he has improved as passer every year, but as decision maker he is still not great. See example, when Towns missed a simple skip pass, that Jokic regularly does.

Read on Twitter

Decision making is crucial because it helps to scale production again different matchups: it helps to keep defense honest by balancing between passing, shooting, slashing, cutting etc. Otherwise it will result in forced shots and turnovers. So many Towns offensive fouls are simply his bad decisions.

Actually, I think Towns made the correct decision but he just lead Gobert too much and try to go for the home run dunk. If the ball is a little more back so Gobert catches it. Murray has to help. Gobert would kick it out to Ant. You can't compare Jokic's pass because the speed he did it and was fairly on target in the shooting pocket. Towns or anyone who tries would either be too slow or zip it over the shooters head and Conley would have time to recover.

It's point well taken in that both Towns and Ant aren't seeing two moves ahead. They are playing checkers where Jokic is playing chess.

[TimberKat]

Saying Timberwolves fans are just mad because they had outsized expectations is an utterly ridiculous take.
We won 46 games last year, then spent FIVE first round draft picks to add a supposed All-NBA player.
The front office clearly had expectations of being better than last year, and so should have the fans.
That means about 50 wins, a top 6 regular season finish, and winning one round in the playoffs.
Those are completely reasonable expectations going into the year.

I think this is exactly the point urinesane is making.

Saying "____ means _____" is absolutely about making expectations not set in reality.

Was 2016-17 worse than 2015-16 for Golden State? It must have been, since they lost six more games than the year before. What a disappointment!

Each season should stand on its own. There are so many different circumstances, I don't believe there is an even comparison to be made.

I certainly understands the frustrations. I think how DLo, Forbes, Rivers, and Nowell play out are all accountable by GM/Coach. Towns injury was unexpected. Given we were only two games away from a successful season, I think we should keep the course and see how it all work out next year with Naz and other moves. My glass is closer to half full. Although the Nick Nurse angle is interesting, let's see how these last few games play out.

[life_saver]

Lets say Kawhi doesn't play rest of the playoffs due to his injury and Clippers lose the series 4-1...considering Kawhi's injuries in last 4 years, would you entertain a trade centered around KAT & Kawhi ? Kawhi currently has 2 years remaining on his contract (2nd one is a player option)

[TimberKat]

Lets say Kawhi doesn't play rest of the playoffs due to his injury and Clippers lose the series 4-1...considering Kawhi's injuries in last 4 years, would you entertain a trade centered around KAT & Kawhi ? Kawhi currently has 2 years remaining on his contract (2nd one is a player option)

That is interesting. Kawhi is a young 31. If we get at least 2 year commitment from him then yes.

[minimus]

2) before this season I was expecting a lot from Towns in terms of decision making. Yes, he has improved as passer every year, but as decision maker he is still not great. See example, when Towns missed a simple skip pass, that Jokic regularly does.

Read on Twitter

Decision making is crucial because it helps to scale production again different matchups: it helps to keep defense honest by balancing between passing, shooting, slashing, cutting etc. Otherwise it will result in forced shots and turnovers. So many Towns offensive fouls are simply his bad decisions.

Actually, I think Towns made the correct decision but he just lead Gobert too much and try to go for the home run dunk. If the ball is a little more back so Gobert catches it. Murray has to help. Gobert would kick it out to Ant. You can't compare Jokic's pass because the speed he did it and was fairly on target in the shooting pocket. Towns or anyone who tries would either be too slow or zip it over the shooters head and Conley would have time to recover.

It's point well taken in that both Towns and Ant aren't seeing two moves ahead. They are playing checkers where Jokic is playing chess.

No, it was not correct decision at all. Difficult pass to Gobert in traffic is always a bad idea.

If you watch UTA tapes with Gobert you can see that UTA players executed this skip pass on regular basis. It was not about Jokic high level passing skills. High IQ, chemistry and experience.

[younggunsmn]

Saying Timberwolves fans are just mad because they had outsized expectations is an utterly ridiculous take.
We won 46 games last year, then spent FIVE first round draft picks to add a supposed All-NBA player.
The front office clearly had expectations of being better than last year, and so should have the fans.
That means about 50 wins, a top 6 regular season finish, and winning one round in the playoffs.
Those are completely reasonable expectations going into the year.

I think this is exactly the point urinesane is making.

Saying "____ means _____" is absolutely about making expectations not set in reality.

Was 2016-17 worse than 2015-16 for Golden State? It must have been, since they lost six more games than the year before. What a disappointment!

Each season should stand on its own. There are so many different circumstances, I don't believe there is an even comparison to be made.

I had the lowest expectations of probably anybody on this board after the Gobert trade.
I did not think it would work.
I did not think it would be this bad.
It is even more frustrating being right, and yes about something beyond my control.

The difference is that after last season, I had a lot of hope for the future.
All of that hope is extinguished.

[younggunsmn]

That's a lot of text to say that you're justified in holding onto your expectations when you've been presented with something that shows those expectations were unfounded. The Wolves are who they are and you're unwilling to accept it.

Enjoy continuing to make yourself miserable for something out of your control.

You also proved my entire point in that post by only focusing on the negative (which you conveniently left out of the quote).

Cope harder.

You've yet to make any cogent argument why expecting this year's team to be better than last year is so unfounded.
You just come here to trash anything negative you see.
I'm sorry I couldn't find the part about "focusing on the negative" in your pages and pages of cope posting.

It's borderline trolling in a place designed partly to give fans of NBA teams a healthy place to vent their frustrations.
I have no problem leaving people space to do their own white-knighting about players, coaches, or executives,
I get really irritated when people go after other posters for being negative about the team.

Take a look around for a minute, we are very very very tame here in criticism of the Timberwolves compared to what the rest of the sporting world experiences.

[Klomp]

The difference is that after last season, I had a lot of hope for the future.
All of that hope is extinguished.

Which is silly to me, since the foundation is still 21-year old Anthony Edwards and 22-year old Jaden McDaniels.

[TwolvesFanRome]

The difference is that after last season, I had a lot of hope for the future.
All of that hope is extinguished.

Which is silly to me, since the foundation is still 21-year old Anthony Edwards and 22-year old Jaden McDaniels.

My biggest fear Klomp is that despite having these two gems in our hands we will never be able to build around them something that really brings us closer to being a contender..

[Klomp]

The difference is that after last season, I had a lot of hope for the future.
All of that hope is extinguished.

Which is silly to me, since the foundation is still 21-year old Anthony Edwards and 22-year old Jaden McDaniels.

My biggest fear Klomp is that despite having these two gems in our hands we will never be able to build around them something that really brings us closer to being a contender..

Maybe so. But that fear shouldn't eliminate all hope when two key building blocks are already in place.

[Guest84]

Lets say Kawhi doesn't play rest of the playoffs due to his injury and Clippers lose the series 4-1...considering Kawhi's injuries in last 4 years, would you entertain a trade centered around KAT & Kawhi ? Kawhi currently has 2 years remaining on his contract (2nd one is a player option)

That is interesting. Kawhi is a young 31. If we get at least 2 year commitment from him then yes.

Absolutely not.

[TimberKat]

No, it was not correct decision at all. Difficult pass to Gobert in traffic is always a bad idea.

If you watch UTA tapes with Gobert you can see that UTA players executed this skip pass on regular basis. It was not about Jokic high level passing skills. High IQ, chemistry and experience.

Look where Murray is and the direction Towns is moving right before Towns make the pass. I think if Towns pass to the corner, Murray will have time to recover to Ant or intercept the pass. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do skip passes and use Gobert as decoy. Also, if the pass gets to Gobert, he could throw it to Ant.

[minimus]

No, it was not correct decision at all. Difficult pass to Gobert in traffic is always a bad idea.

If you watch UTA tapes with Gobert you can see that UTA players executed this skip pass on regular basis. It was not about Jokic high level passing skills. High IQ, chemistry and experience.

Look where Murray is and the direction Towns is moving right before Towns make the pass. I think if Towns pass to the corner, Murray will have time to recover to Ant or intercept the pass. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do skip passes and use Gobert as decoy. Also, if the pass gets to Gobert, he could throw it to Ant.

That is the beauty of skip pass. In first game Jokic threw one pass to the corner right above Conley's head. Towns telegraphed this pass.