Playoffs R1 Discussion Thread - Kings vs Warriors

[City of Trees]

Huerter is getting torched

[blind prophet]

Just a horrible game all around.

[BoogieTime]

I hope it gets better for Keegan, because if it doesn't its going to be a summer of me wanting the Kings to pursue his value.

I appreciate the one dimension, heavily assisted 3 pt shooting record and will cherish it, but pretty much every ounce of his other game was lacking. And it was a disappointing year, coming off sl/preseason where many thought we had a borderline all star level player, to come in and be a sheepish dimensional player without strong mental fortitude.

Now you have an older prospect who will be 23 who has exhibited mental weakness, bad rebounding, non descript tweener defense that doesn't fit next to Domas at PF with weak rim protection, and not a level of playmaking this year. Its about assessing his value as the 4th pick who put up that record, and trying to determine with the mental fortitude he has shown if he is ever going to be a plus rebounder, defender, playmaker.

I'll say, he did it to a degree in sl/preseason and at a college level, but I'm not sure the trajectory is there for a older 4th pick with what was shown this rookie season. Him laying a total egg when the team needs him the most in the playoffs would just be icing on the peeving me cake for this summer if this stands.

And its where does he even fit. You would think the best way to clean up our sub standard defense would be getting Domas some help in the interior and I've yet to be convinced that Keegan's foot speed and all around game is suited for a wing. And the touted Vezenkov should be filling his dimensional role with possibly a more veteran win now mindset.

[City of Trees]

I hope it gets better for Keegan, because if it doesn't its going to be a summer of me wanting the Kings to pursue his value.

[OxAndFox]

Another poor shooting night. Don't stress everyone. Warriors outplayed us and obviously deserved the win.
Sabonis is very clearly hurt. He was pretty soft and timid. Not Domas like.

This is, and even if the Warriors wins another one, is the adversity during a PO series that this team should absolutely crave.
I mean who would have thought Curry shoots well and the opposition absolutely does not and you expect a win?
We all knew, you can't stop Curry. You just have to eliminate him from getting inside and flopping.

[LightTheBeam]

Come on with the Murray hate. How many rookies are playing in the postseason? How many of them are starting and going against the defending Champs being tasked with guarding Klay and Wiggins?

It's expected the rookie was going to struggle. I actually think Mike should adjust and bench him in favor of TD for game 4. TD plays with Hustle and intensity every time he starts, he's not afraid to mix it up or let it fly.

But this series hasn't changed my opinion on Keegan one bit. If he can fetch us Mikal bridges you move him, if he can't he stays and continues to develop. Simple as that.

[City of Trees]

Come on with the Murray hate. How many rookies are playing in the postseason? How many of them are starting and going against the defending Champs being tasked with guarding Klay and Wiggins?

It's expected the rookie was going to struggle. I actually think Mike should adjust and bench him in favor of TD for game 4. TD plays with Hustle and intensity every time he starts, he's not afraid to mix it up or let it fly.

But this series hasn't changed my opinion on Keegan one bit. If he can fetch us Mikal bridges you move him, if he can't he stays and continues to develop. Simple as that.

Yep. Keegan has a history of needing time to adjust to new situations. He's not an assertive guy so when you pair that with his high shot selection IQ you get a guy who needs time to adjust before he starts taking shots. Yes the moment is too big for Keegan but it won't always be that way. He will adjust. I just hope it's this series.

[BoogieTime]

Come on with the Murray hate. How many rookies are playing in the postseason? How many of them are starting and going against the defending Champs being tasked with guarding Klay and Wiggins?

It's expected the rookie was going to struggle. I actually think Mike should adjust and bench him in favor of TD for game 4. TD plays with Hustle and intensity every time he starts, he's not afraid to mix it up or let it fly.

But this series hasn't changed my opinion on Keegan one bit. If he can fetch us Mikal bridges you move him, if he can't he stays and continues to develop. Simple as that.

Yep. Keegan has a history of needing time to adjust to new situations. He's not an assertive guy so when you pair that with his high shot selection IQ you get a guy who needs time to adjust before he starts taking shots. Yes the moment is too big for Keegan but it won't always be that way. He will adjust. I just hope it's this series.

But is "being afraid of the moment" a trait. Lack of confidence, lack of dog in him, whatever you want to call it. If its a trait, is that someone who you can plan on significantly improving the physical aspects of his game like rebounding and rim protection whch coincidentally lack now?

[LightTheBeam]

Come on with the Murray hate. How many rookies are playing in the postseason? How many of them are starting and going against the defending Champs being tasked with guarding Klay and Wiggins?

It's expected the rookie was going to struggle. I actually think Mike should adjust and bench him in favor of TD for game 4. TD plays with Hustle and intensity every time he starts, he's not afraid to mix it up or let it fly.

But this series hasn't changed my opinion on Keegan one bit. If he can fetch us Mikal bridges you move him, if he can't he stays and continues to develop. Simple as that.

Yep. Keegan has a history of needing time to adjust to new situations. He's not an assertive guy so when you pair that with his high shot selection IQ you get a guy who needs time to adjust before he starts taking shots. Yes the moment is too big for Keegan but it won't always be that way. He will adjust. I just hope it's this series.

But is "being afraid of the moment" a trait. Lack of confidence, lack of dog in him, whatever you want to call it. If its a trait, is that someone who you can plan on significantly improving the physical aspects of his game like rebounding and rim protection whch coincidentally lack now?

Again what other lotto pick is playing in the playoffs? None. We can go further, which rookies are playing in the postseason?

There are 3 rookies who have got any type of postseason minutes.

Christian Braun - in 2 games on a team that has been here multiple times (a zero pressure situation) he has 5pts over 26 minutes.
David Roddy - Played in 2 games. 30 minutes, has 9pts on 3 made 3s. Has done basically nothing else.

Why are we acting like it's supposed to be normal for a rookie to play or contribute in the postseason? The Warriors didn't trust their 2nd year guys until game 3 when they were back at home and needed them with 2 key big minutes guys out.

[BoogieTime]

Yep. Keegan has a history of needing time to adjust to new situations. He's not an assertive guy so when you pair that with his high shot selection IQ you get a guy who needs time to adjust before he starts taking shots. Yes the moment is too big for Keegan but it won't always be that way. He will adjust. I just hope it's this series.

But is "being afraid of the moment" a trait. Lack of confidence, lack of dog in him, whatever you want to call it. If its a trait, is that someone who you can plan on significantly improving the physical aspects of his game like rebounding and rim protection whch coincidentally lack now?

Again what other lotto pick is playing in the playoffs? None. We can go further, which rookies are playing in the postseason?

There are 3 rookies who have got any type of postseason minutes.

Christian Braun - in 2 games on a team that has been here multiple times (a zero pressure situation) he has 5pts over 26 minutes.
David Roddy - Played in 2 games. 30 minutes, has 9pts on 3 made 3s. Has done basically nothing else.

Why are we acting like it's supposed to be normal for a rookie to play or contribute in the postseason? The Warriors didn't trust their 2nd year guys until game 3 when they were back at home and needed them with 2 key big minutes guys out.

I'm not talking about just the playoffs, he's been a dimensional 3 pt shooter who has been deficient at other parts of the game at PF, particularly next to Sabonis, and as a bit of a tweener without the greatest athleticism I'm not sure you pencil him in as a SF.

Regarding rookies, how many top ten picks are there in the playoffs and how old are they? Kuminga isnt good

[LightTheBeam]

But is "being afraid of the moment" a trait. Lack of confidence, lack of dog in him, whatever you want to call it. If its a trait, is that someone who you can plan on significantly improving the physical aspects of his game like rebounding and rim protection whch coincidentally lack now?

Again what other lotto pick is playing in the playoffs? None. We can go further, which rookies are playing in the postseason?

There are 3 rookies who have got any type of postseason minutes.

Christian Braun - in 2 games on a team that has been here multiple times (a zero pressure situation) he has 5pts over 26 minutes.
David Roddy - Played in 2 games. 30 minutes, has 9pts on 3 made 3s. Has done basically nothing else.

Why are we acting like it's supposed to be normal for a rookie to play or contribute in the postseason? The Warriors didn't trust their 2nd year guys until game 3 when they were back at home and needed them with 2 key big minutes guys out.

I'm not talking about just the playoffs, he's been a dimensional 3 pt shooter who has been deficient at other parts of the game at PF, particularly next to Sabonis, and as a bit of a tweener without the greatest athleticism I'm not sure you pencil him in as a SF.

Regarding rookies, how many top ten picks are there in the playoffs and how old are they? Kuminga isnt good

That's part of the point. Regardless your belief, he was a big part of the teams success all year. He made Fox/Sabonis life 100x easier by being a knockdown outlet for both of them. How many rookies were significant contributors to their team making the playoffs, let alone a top 3 seed. How many rookies come into the league and aren't one dimensional? Fox was just a scorer his rookie season, and not a particularly good one. Sabonis averaged 6/3/1 and shot 40% from the field.

He is a SF, many of us including myself believed he was destined to be a PF. At some point I think he will transition to PF, but for his rookie contract we should plan on him being a sf. His lateral movement has gotten better and despite his poor playoff performance, I thought he's done fine when guarding or switching onto Klay/Curry.

I've been anti John Collins the last 2 years don't think he's actually worth his contact, but he may be someone to consider putting between Murray/Sabonis (if we can take him for free). At one point he was a solid 3pt shooter who could grab you 8rbs.

Either way whatever the Kings decide to do, the first answer is replacing Barnes with the right player, not Keegan. Now if we find a Hali/Sabonis type deal for Keegan where we can turn him into an established all-star who plays both sides of the ball like Bridges then sure. But you don't give up on a kid after his rookie season after he performed as good as Keegan did.

[OxAndFox]

Again what other lotto pick is playing in the playoffs? None. We can go further, which rookies are playing in the postseason?

There are 3 rookies who have got any type of postseason minutes.

Christian Braun - in 2 games on a team that has been here multiple times (a zero pressure situation) he has 5pts over 26 minutes.
David Roddy - Played in 2 games. 30 minutes, has 9pts on 3 made 3s. Has done basically nothing else.

Why are we acting like it's supposed to be normal for a rookie to play or contribute in the postseason? The Warriors didn't trust their 2nd year guys until game 3 when they were back at home and needed them with 2 key big minutes guys out.

I'm not talking about just the playoffs, he's been a dimensional 3 pt shooter who has been deficient at other parts of the game at PF, particularly next to Sabonis, and as a bit of a tweener without the greatest athleticism I'm not sure you pencil him in as a SF.

Regarding rookies, how many top ten picks are there in the playoffs and how old are they? Kuminga isnt good

That's part of the point. Regardless your belief, he was a big part of the teams success all year. He made Fox/Sabonis life 100x easier by being a knockdown outlet for both of them. How many rookies were significant contributors to their team making the playoffs, let alone a top 3 seed. How many rookies come into the league and aren't one dimensional? Fox was just a scorer his rookie season, and not a particularly good one. Sabonis averaged 6/3/1 and shot 40% from the field.

He is a SF, many of us including myself believed he was destined to be a PF. At some point I think he will transition to PF, but for his rookie contract we should plan on him being a sf. His lateral movement has gotten better and despite his poor playoff performance, I thought he's done fine when guarding or switching onto Klay/Curry.

I've been anti John Collins the last 2 years don't think he's actually worth his contact, but he may be someone to consider putting between Murray/Sabonis (if we can take him for free). At one point he was a solid 3pt shooter who could grab you 8rbs.

Either way whatever the Kings decide to do, the first answer is replacing Barnes with the right player, not Keegan. Now if we find a Hali/Sabonis type deal for Keegan where we can turn him into an established all-star who plays both sides of the ball like Bridges then sure. But you don't give up on a kid after his rookie season after he performed as good as Keegan did.

Exactly. And if we were playing that game Huerter would be outgoing with him too.

Adding to the how many rookies part of this. How many rookies were substantial pieces in the best offense in history?

No one thought the Kings were going to win this series. They might not as well. It's a great lesson against one of the greatest teams of all time. They adjust probably better than any team in the NBA ever has and have a lot of high IQ players.
If anything the first 3 games have shown is, this Kings team is right there with the best in the NBA (yes if they hit 3's) and IMO Sacramento is almost in the top tier in terms of PO strategy.
Teams, I don't think the Kings would defeat in a series:
Boston
Milwaukee
Philadelphia
Phoenix

Maybe:
Cleveland
Denver
Memphis
LA Clippers

[BoogieTime]

Again what other lotto pick is playing in the playoffs? None. We can go further, which rookies are playing in the postseason?

There are 3 rookies who have got any type of postseason minutes.

Christian Braun - in 2 games on a team that has been here multiple times (a zero pressure situation) he has 5pts over 26 minutes.
David Roddy - Played in 2 games. 30 minutes, has 9pts on 3 made 3s. Has done basically nothing else.

Why are we acting like it's supposed to be normal for a rookie to play or contribute in the postseason? The Warriors didn't trust their 2nd year guys until game 3 when they were back at home and needed them with 2 key big minutes guys out.

I'm not talking about just the playoffs, he's been a dimensional 3 pt shooter who has been deficient at other parts of the game at PF, particularly next to Sabonis, and as a bit of a tweener without the greatest athleticism I'm not sure you pencil him in as a SF.

Regarding rookies, how many top ten picks are there in the playoffs and how old are they? Kuminga isnt good

That's part of the point. Regardless your belief, he was a big part of the teams success all year. He made Fox/Sabonis life 100x easier by being a knockdown outlet for both of them. How many rookies were significant contributors to their team making the playoffs, let alone a top 3 seed. How many rookies come into the league and aren't one dimensional? Fox was just a scorer his rookie season, and not a particularly good one. Sabonis averaged 6/3/1 and shot 40% from the field.

He is a SF, many of us including myself believed he was destined to be a PF. At some point I think he will transition to PF, but for his rookie contract we should plan on him being a sf. His lateral movement has gotten better and despite his poor playoff performance, I thought he's done fine when guarding or switching onto Klay/Curry.

I've been anti John Collins the last 2 years don't think he's actually worth his contact, but he may be someone to consider putting between Murray/Sabonis (if we can take him for free). At one point he was a solid 3pt shooter who could grab you 8rbs.

Either way whatever the Kings decide to do, the first answer is replacing Barnes with the right player, not Keegan. Now if we find a Hali/Sabonis type deal for Keegan where we can turn him into an established all-star who plays both sides of the ball like Bridges then sure. But you don't give up on a kid after his rookie season after he performed as good as Keegan did.

I'm not sure how hard it is to bring in a SF/PF that does nothing but make open threes. I think they made his life a lot easier. Maybe not to the clip of Keegan, but they I could imagine they would contribute a lot more in other facets of the game. I mean, if the team had two Trey Lyles instead of Keegan, is the team worse?

[LightTheBeam]

I'm not talking about just the playoffs, he's been a dimensional 3 pt shooter who has been deficient at other parts of the game at PF, particularly next to Sabonis, and as a bit of a tweener without the greatest athleticism I'm not sure you pencil him in as a SF.

Regarding rookies, how many top ten picks are there in the playoffs and how old are they? Kuminga isnt good

That's part of the point. Regardless your belief, he was a big part of the teams success all year. He made Fox/Sabonis life 100x easier by being a knockdown outlet for both of them. How many rookies were significant contributors to their team making the playoffs, let alone a top 3 seed. How many rookies come into the league and aren't one dimensional? Fox was just a scorer his rookie season, and not a particularly good one. Sabonis averaged 6/3/1 and shot 40% from the field.

He is a SF, many of us including myself believed he was destined to be a PF. At some point I think he will transition to PF, but for his rookie contract we should plan on him being a sf. His lateral movement has gotten better and despite his poor playoff performance, I thought he's done fine when guarding or switching onto Klay/Curry.

I've been anti John Collins the last 2 years don't think he's actually worth his contact, but he may be someone to consider putting between Murray/Sabonis (if we can take him for free). At one point he was a solid 3pt shooter who could grab you 8rbs.

Either way whatever the Kings decide to do, the first answer is replacing Barnes with the right player, not Keegan. Now if we find a Hali/Sabonis type deal for Keegan where we can turn him into an established all-star who plays both sides of the ball like Bridges then sure. But you don't give up on a kid after his rookie season after he performed as good as Keegan did.

I'm not sure how hard it is to bring in a SF/PF that does nothing but make open threes. I think they made his life a lot easier. Maybe not to the clip of Keegan, but they I could imagine they would contribute a lot more in other facets of the game. I mean, if the team had two Trey Lyles instead of Keegan, is the team worse?

They absolutely would be worse. I don't think you are taking account volume and the % he shot. He was 21st in the league in 3pt % as a rookie.

He took 500 3's. Even if you set that bar at 400 3s attempted, there were only 4 players who had a higher percentage on that volume

Curry
Buddy
Porter Jr
Klay

That's elite 3pt shooting company. Set the bar to 500 3pt shots attempted and now you can remove MPJ from the list as well. How many times have we seen players increase their volume significantly and suddenly the efficiency crashes.

It's not as simple as just throwing a decent shooter in the mix and expecting positive results. Keegan is super high IQ, positioning himself in the perfect spot almost always.

I also think you are discounting the growth we've seen from him all season long.

1. He's in better shape
2. Lateral movement is improving
3. Improved rebounder
4. More confidence
5. Improved driving ability

Your assessment feels like judging 2022 Keegan where he was shooting a few 3s while looking chubby and slow. 2022 he basically averaged 3.5 rpg, 2023 he was up to about 5.5. Significant improvement in months.

My mind is just blown at the thought of wanting to give up on a rookie after the type of season he just had. If you were expecting PG13 year one I think that's more of a you problem (impossible expectations) than a Keegan problem tbh.

[OxAndFox]

That's part of the point. Regardless your belief, he was a big part of the teams success all year. He made Fox/Sabonis life 100x easier by being a knockdown outlet for both of them. How many rookies were significant contributors to their team making the playoffs, let alone a top 3 seed. How many rookies come into the league and aren't one dimensional? Fox was just a scorer his rookie season, and not a particularly good one. Sabonis averaged 6/3/1 and shot 40% from the field.

He is a SF, many of us including myself believed he was destined to be a PF. At some point I think he will transition to PF, but for his rookie contract we should plan on him being a sf. His lateral movement has gotten better and despite his poor playoff performance, I thought he's done fine when guarding or switching onto Klay/Curry.

I've been anti John Collins the last 2 years don't think he's actually worth his contact, but he may be someone to consider putting between Murray/Sabonis (if we can take him for free). At one point he was a solid 3pt shooter who could grab you 8rbs.

Either way whatever the Kings decide to do, the first answer is replacing Barnes with the right player, not Keegan. Now if we find a Hali/Sabonis type deal for Keegan where we can turn him into an established all-star who plays both sides of the ball like Bridges then sure. But you don't give up on a kid after his rookie season after he performed as good as Keegan did.

I'm not sure how hard it is to bring in a SF/PF that does nothing but make open threes. I think they made his life a lot easier. Maybe not to the clip of Keegan, but they I could imagine they would contribute a lot more in other facets of the game. I mean, if the team had two Trey Lyles instead of Keegan, is the team worse?

They absolutely would be worse. I don't think you are taking account volume and the % he shot. He was 21st in the league in 3pt % as a rookie.

He took 500 3's. Even if you set that bar at 400 3s attempted, there were only 4 players who had a higher percentage on that volume

Curry
Buddy
Porter Jr
Klay

That's elite 3pt shooting company. Set the bar to 500 3pt shots attempted and now you can remove MPJ from the list as well. How many times have we seen players increase their volume significantly and suddenly the efficiency crashes.

It's not as simple as just throwing a decent shooter in the mix and expecting positive results. Keegan is super high IQ, positioning himself in the perfect spot almost always.

I also think you are discounting the growth we've seen from him all season long.

1. He's in better shape
2. Lateral movement is improving
3. Improved rebounder
4. More confidence
5. Improved driving ability

Your assessment feels like judging 2022 Keegan where he was shooting a few 3s while looking chubby and slow. 2022 he basically averaged 3.5 rpg, 2023 he was up to about 5.5. Significant improvement in months.

My mind is just blown at the thought of wanting to give up on a rookie after the type of season he just had. If you were expecting PG13 year one I think that's more of a you problem (impossible expectations) than a Keegan problem tbh.

It's funny you bring up PG13. I know you were meaning current PG13, but these are their rookie numbers. Keegan is ahead in everything except being tied in FG%.

Keegan - 29 MPG
12.2/4.6/1.2
.453/.411/.765

PG13 - 20 MPG
7.8/3.7/1.1
.453/.297/.762

To be fair. PG13 is playing "better" than Keegan in the POs.
Keegan 18 MPG
3.3/4.0/0.3
.231/.125/.750

PG13 26 MPG
6.0/5.0/1.0
.303/.231/.875

Keegan has a lot that he needs to get better at. And he will. IMO the things he needs to get better are a positive because they're things that are teachable and he is a quick learner.

[KF10]

The Kings were due for a loss. Hopefully they are able to bounce back.

[City of Trees]

Warriors are gaining confidence and Wiggins should start to feel like himself soon. I'm not sure the Kings can recover from a Game 4 loss.

[BoogieTime]

Warriors are gaining confidence and Wiggins should start to feel like himself soon. I'm not sure the Kings can recover from a Game 4 loss.

Truthfully I feel we will lose a nip and tuck close game. Good effort, but ultimately a 6-9 point loss that is close til 2-3 minutes left.

Problem is I wish we did that in Game 3, instead of just not show up and hand them a freebie. That bad effort changed the complexion of the series from our advantage to 50/50

[Lost in LA]

Draymond will be coming off the bench today, look out...

[BoogieTime]

Bad interior defense