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2023 NFL Draft Thread - Round 1 Thursday 7:00 PM

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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#941 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:13 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
You are missing the point. The question was when was the last time a RB was taken in the 1st where another player taken directly after(10-15 picks) wouldn't have been a better pick? You can find plenty of examples of QBs, WRs, OTs, Edge rushers, Secondary where that player picked clearly provided the best value. That hasn't been true since AP and even that is iffy because Revis went 7 picks later.


And I just gave you a list of players at "more important positions" taken higher than a RB or WR that ended up being worse. There's only been three TEs taken in the first since 2018. Kmet and Hockenson have both played with crappy QBs. Pitts too, but I'd trade #15 for him in a heartbeat.


My opposition to drafting a TE in the 1st has never been about positional value. A great tight end can have a major effect on winning and I'm not disputing that at all(unlike rb where SB winners often don't have a stud RB)

My opposition to taking a TE in the 1st is because I don't think NFL evaluators or draft niks have learned how to properly evaluate the position coming out of college. The hit rate on mid-late round tight ends is very similar to that of 1st round tight ends. Basically I don't trust that we've learned to identify which tight ends will hit or bust compared to other positions which hit on a much higher rate


A huge part of the reason is supply and demand. There simply aren't many (if any) elite tight end prospects in any given year. It's also a position where if you have one you're not going to prioritize getting another. But every team needs at least two tackles or three cornerbacks and a few guys who can get to the QB. But it's not like there aren't huge first round busts at those positions literally every single year.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#942 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:19 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
And I just gave you a list of players at "more important positions" taken higher than a RB or WR that ended up being worse. There's only been three TEs taken in the first since 2018. Kmet and Hockenson have both played with crappy QBs. Pitts too, but I'd trade #15 for him in a heartbeat.


My opposition to drafting a TE in the 1st has never been about positional value. A great tight end can have a major effect on winning and I'm not disputing that at all(unlike rb where SB winners often don't have a stud RB)

My opposition to taking a TE in the 1st is because I don't think NFL evaluators or draft niks have learned how to properly evaluate the position coming out of college. The hit rate on mid-late round tight ends is very similar to that of 1st round tight ends. Basically I don't trust that we've learned to identify which tight ends will hit or bust compared to other positions which hit on a much higher rate


A huge part of the reason is supply and demand. There simply aren't many (if any) elite tight end prospects in any given year. It's also a position where if you have one you're not going to prioritize getting another. But every team needs at least two tackles or three cornerbacks and a few guys who can get to the QB. But it's not like there aren't huge first round busts at those positions literally every single year.


Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#943 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:35 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
My opposition to drafting a TE in the 1st has never been about positional value. A great tight end can have a major effect on winning and I'm not disputing that at all(unlike rb where SB winners often don't have a stud RB)

My opposition to taking a TE in the 1st is because I don't think NFL evaluators or draft niks have learned how to properly evaluate the position coming out of college. The hit rate on mid-late round tight ends is very similar to that of 1st round tight ends. Basically I don't trust that we've learned to identify which tight ends will hit or bust compared to other positions which hit on a much higher rate


A huge part of the reason is supply and demand. There simply aren't many (if any) elite tight end prospects in any given year. It's also a position where if you have one you're not going to prioritize getting another. But every team needs at least two tackles or three cornerbacks and a few guys who can get to the QB. But it's not like there aren't huge first round busts at those positions literally every single year.


Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly


All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#944 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:42 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
A huge part of the reason is supply and demand. There simply aren't many (if any) elite tight end prospects in any given year. It's also a position where if you have one you're not going to prioritize getting another. But every team needs at least two tackles or three cornerbacks and a few guys who can get to the QB. But it's not like there aren't huge first round busts at those positions literally every single year.


Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly


All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.


Waller went in the 6th round, Andrews went in the 3rd round, Goedert went in the 2nd, Witten went in the 3rd, Gates was undrafted, Graham went in the 3rd.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#945 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:47 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly


All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.


Waller went in the 6th round, Andrews went in the 3rd round, Goedert went in the 2nd, Witten went in the 3rd, Gates was undrafted, Graham went in the 3rd.


I went back to 2011. Congrats on finding three examples of elite TEs from the decade prior.

Point stands.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#946 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:50 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
A huge part of the reason is supply and demand. There simply aren't many (if any) elite tight end prospects in any given year. It's also a position where if you have one you're not going to prioritize getting another. But every team needs at least two tackles or three cornerbacks and a few guys who can get to the QB. But it's not like there aren't huge first round busts at those positions literally every single year.


Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly


All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.


2021: Pitts
2020: Kmet
2019: Hockenson
2016: Hunter Henry
2015: Maxx Williams
2012: Cody Fleener
2011: Kyle Rudolph

Not exactly a great list outside of whatever Pitts turns into
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#947 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:54 am

Also that list is certainly incorrect. Waller was taken in 2015, no way Maxx Williams is better than him
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#948 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:56 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
Of course other positions bust but r1 tight ends basically almost never hit. I know you've seen the list of tight ends taken high & it's filled with a litany of busts and a handful of average quality guys(we'll see what Pitts becomes). But basically all the best tight ends in the NFL were taken in the mid to late rounds with several tight ends taken before them. I have very little faith in evaluators ability to identify who will be an elite tight end and I don't just want to take a good tight end in R1 because I'm of the belief you can find a good tight end on day 2 or 3 fairly regularly


All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.


2021: Pitts
2020: Kmet
2019: Hockenson
2016: Hunter Henry
2015: Maxx Williams
2012: Cody Fleener
2011: Kyle Rudolph

Not exactly a great list outside of whatever Pitts turns into


Still the best in class if you wanted a TE. Hockenson is a good player. It's not like Ed Oliver, Devin Bush, Jonah Williams, Christian Wilkins, and Dwayne Haskins were better picks. Henry, Fleener, Williams, and Rudolph weren't first rounders.

Like I said, first round TE prospects are incredibly rare.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#949 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:56 am

MVP2110 wrote:Also that list is certainly incorrect. Waller was taken in 2015, no way Maxx Williams is better than him


I admit I did miss Waller.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#950 » by Finn » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:04 am

It's almost like the draft is a crapshoot.....
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#951 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:06 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
All the best meaning Kelce (63rd pick), Kittle (5th round), and Gronk (42nd pick)? That seems to be what you're saying. Let's ignore that all three went to teams with genius offensive play-callers and the best offensive systems. Or than Gronk only fell because of injury. There are a hell of a lot more years where the best TEs were first round picks or the first TEs taken: 2011, 2012, 2015, 2016, 2019, 2020, 2021.


2021: Pitts
2020: Kmet
2019: Hockenson
2016: Hunter Henry
2015: Maxx Williams
2012: Cody Fleener
2011: Kyle Rudolph

Not exactly a great list outside of whatever Pitts turns into


Still the best in class if you wanted a TE. Hockenson is a good player. It's not like Ed Oliver, Devin Bush, Jonah Williams, Christian Wilkins, and Dwayne Haskins were better picks. Henry, Fleener, Williams, and Rudolph weren't first rounders.

Like I said, first round TE prospects are incredibly rare.


Which is kind of my point, I don't really believe any of these TE prospects are incredibly rare. There isn't even really a consensus #1 guy, it's probably Mayer but there is certainly people in the Kincaid or Washington camp. But I highly doubt there are 3 TEs who are good enoigh to justify a R1 pick this year and it's more likely we can find someone pretty good in the 2nd so I'd rather just do that
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#952 » by ReasonablySober » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:08 am

MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
2021: Pitts
2020: Kmet
2019: Hockenson
2016: Hunter Henry
2015: Maxx Williams
2012: Cody Fleener
2011: Kyle Rudolph

Not exactly a great list outside of whatever Pitts turns into


Still the best in class if you wanted a TE. Hockenson is a good player. It's not like Ed Oliver, Devin Bush, Jonah Williams, Christian Wilkins, and Dwayne Haskins were better picks. Henry, Fleener, Williams, and Rudolph weren't first rounders.

Like I said, first round TE prospects are incredibly rare.


Which is kind of my point, I don't really believe any of these TE prospects are incredibly rare. There isn't even really a consensus #1 guy, it's probably Mayer but there is certainly people in the Kincaid or Washington camp. But I highly doubt there are 3 TEs who are good enoigh to justify a R1 pick this year and it's more likely we can find someone pretty good in the 2nd so I'd rather just do that


Yet history shows that if you want a good TE, you need to take the best ones first. I know that's typical to some degree, but I just looked at about 15 years worth of drafts and the absolutely obvious conclusion was that the good ones go early, and a mountain of dog-sh*t goes after.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#953 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:19 am

ReasonablySober wrote:
MVP2110 wrote:
ReasonablySober wrote:
Still the best in class if you wanted a TE. Hockenson is a good player. It's not like Ed Oliver, Devin Bush, Jonah Williams, Christian Wilkins, and Dwayne Haskins were better picks. Henry, Fleener, Williams, and Rudolph weren't first rounders.

Like I said, first round TE prospects are incredibly rare.


Which is kind of my point, I don't really believe any of these TE prospects are incredibly rare. There isn't even really a consensus #1 guy, it's probably Mayer but there is certainly people in the Kincaid or Washington camp. But I highly doubt there are 3 TEs who are good enoigh to justify a R1 pick this year and it's more likely we can find someone pretty good in the 2nd so I'd rather just do that


Yet history shows that if you want a good TE, you need to take the best ones first. I know that's typical to some degree, but I just looked at about 15 years worth of drafts and the absolutely obvious conclusion was that the good ones go early, and a mountain of dog-sh*t goes after.


Early as in 2nd and 3rd rounds which I'm totally cool with. I'd love a day 2 TE paired with a day 3 guy
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#954 » by Swan Vox » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:03 am

Sam LaPorta feels like a Packers pick. (RD2) Take an EDGE in RD1 or JSN if he’s there. This is the way.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/21/unpacking-future-packers-no-7-iowa-te-sam-laporta/
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#955 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 3:13 am

Swan Vox wrote:Sam LaPorta feels like a Packers pick. (RD2) Take an EDGE in RD1 or JSN if he’s there. This is the way.

https://packerswire.usatoday.com/2023/04/21/unpacking-future-packers-no-7-iowa-te-sam-laporta/


Assuming Washington & Mayer don't fall to our 2nd round pick which seems unlikely then Laporta might be my top r2 target.
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#956 » by RRyder823 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 6:25 am

sdn40 wrote:
LUKE23 wrote:
sdn40 wrote:The problem is, fans are trying to force a weak WR class into the need they see on the Packers, and want it to be in the First Round. It's been widely reported that most teams only see (1) Round 1 prospect. This will lead to him being over drafted even if he would have been rated no more than WR #5 in last years class. Bad teams will panic despite the weak class, while good teams will stick to their board. The "top" of this years class will likely be overdrafted


It's not a strong WR class for top end guys, but many have JSN in their top 15 overall players. His consensus big board ranking is #13.

https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/big-boards/2023/consensus-big-board-2023

I just don't think he would be a reach unless he was taken over someone crazy that slipped, or a QB slips and we turn down a good trade down opportunity (I think there is a zero percent chance any of the top 4 QB fall to 13 or 15).


If JSN would have been a 2nd Round prospect last year, how good is he ?

Also, your idea of a premium guy slipping is far too narrow. At pick #15 Gute is gonna be a high upside, high athletic, at a premium position drafter. Rashan Gary is the example when he was chosen at #12. This will include ER, OT, CB, and maybe DT. Yes, 99% of fans hate that idea, but 99% of fans draft with their Madden instead of their brain.

And good GM's are far more patient than fans.
The Packers next window is likely 3 years away if lucky. Not all needs will be met with this one draft. Reaching for "need" will only prolong the process


I agree with this entire post........ However haven't you said you effectively think GMs are interchangeable with random people? So wouldn't that make this statement moot or at least slightly hypocritical?



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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#957 » by LittleRooster » Sat Apr 22, 2023 2:58 pm

Washington is my #1 want for a TE but someone like Tucker Kraft in the late rounds I think would also be good


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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#958 » by Mags FTW » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:02 pm

Read on Twitter
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#959 » by MVP2110 » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:10 pm

Mags FTW wrote:
Read on Twitter


I'm really curious to follow these results over the next few years and see how they translate to NFL success. So far we've heard of some correlation but I don't think we've seen nearly enough to draw any conclusions on the s2 test
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Re: 2023 NFL Draft Discussion - Bears Trade #1 to Panthers for DJ Moore + 4 Picks 

Post#960 » by Mags FTW » Sat Apr 22, 2023 4:46 pm

MVP2110 wrote:
Mags FTW wrote:
Read on Twitter


I'm really curious to follow these results over the next few years and see how they translate to NFL success. So far we've heard of some correlation but I don't think we've seen nearly enough to draw any conclusions on the s2 test

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