How would you rank these PG's on an ATL?

[trex_8063]

Please rank the following PG's in an all-time sense (based on whatever your criteria is for that), and provide any reasoning you feel appropriate.....

Mike Conley
Sam Cassell
Rajon Rondo
Mark Jackson
Gus Williams
Rod Strickland

[penbeast0]

Guys I liked and respected: Mike Conley, Gus Williams, and Mark Jackson (with Jackson behind the other two for both scoring and defense)
Guys I liked sometime and thought people overrated sometimes: Rondo and Cassell (though I think I've underrated Cassell a bit)
Guys who I didn't like and think their stats overrate: Rod Strickland (I may not be fair to him but saw too much of him in Washington where he was the definition of empty stats).

[tsherkin]

Rondo

Rondo was staggeringly overrated.

In 08 when he was a bit player filling a defensive role, he was fine. After that, as he started pounding the ball and hitting guys off curl screens while avoiding his own shot and padding assist numbers, he became very much overrated. Trash-garbage as a scoring threat (I think most of us remember how Kobe managed him in the 2010 Finals), point-waster at the line. Basically never healthy. Small. No actual statistical evidence to back up the idea that he was a high-end offensive player, apart from raw APG. But people do love them some raw box score numbers.

Bleh.

Apparently I'm still bitter, heh. He was good as a roleplayer. When people started trying to think of him as more than that, it was unpleasant. He's a horrible idea for a PG unless you have multiple HoF-level offensive guys managing the scoring load, in which case his talent level is somewhat immaterial.

[trex_8063]

Guys I liked and respected: Mike Conley, Gus Williams, and Mark Jackson (with Jackson behind the other two for both scoring and defense)
Guys I liked sometime and thought people overrated sometimes: Rondo and Cassell (though I think I've underrated Cassell a bit)
Guys who I didn't like and think their stats overrate: Rod Strickland (I may not be fair to him but saw too much of him in Washington where he was the definition of empty stats).

I remember you saying similar about Strickland in the past; and to be fair, his impact profile is sort of suggestive of "empty stats". Was a bit of a thug, too, wasn't he? Which may be neither here nor there, though perhaps a locker-room distraction.


For the record, I'm fairly set on who the top three are: Conley, Gus, and Cassell......though I'm not sure on the order.

I'm leaning toward Rondo and Strickland at the bottom (with Mark Jackson likely the only one I can put exactly in his place [4th]). Jackson may have peaked the lowest (or probably no better than 5th, anyway); but his longevity/durability was excellent.

[penbeast0]

I remember Rondo stepping up in the playoffs for Boston, then backsliding in the regular season before turning into a high ego reserve. Maybe just hype, haven't looked at the numbers.

Mark Jackson was very limited at what he did but you could plug him in and know exactly what to expect over a long and healthy career. I agree his peak isn't up there with the others.

Cassell and Conley also have excellent longevity, one of Gus Williams's weak areas.


I don't pretend to be objective on Strickland (or Webber) so please form your own opinions.

[AEnigma]

Gus is a tier above for me. Only guy I would have in my top 100, although admittedly a lot of that is a sense of era-relative accomplishment and legacy. Still, only one in that group to have been on the all-NBA team twice, and the only one to make first-team all-NBA. Also the only one to have been (arguably) the best player on a championship team. Best playoff performer of the group generally. Having a short-lived career can hold him back by comparison with other stars, but these names were generally not at that level. Gus was the league’s best point guard in 1979 (despite the lack of all-NBA acknowledgment that year) and imo second to Magic in 1980 and 1982. He reached a level none of those other names ever remotely approached, and I think that merits proper acknowledgment.

My inclination for second is Conley. Longer career, consistent presence on winning teams, reliable evidence of “impact”, mild star status at peak, mostly decent playoff performer, top tier teammate, high competence in a complementary role (with some ability to increase his scoring load when needed)… If people love players like Terry Porter and Kyle Lowry, Conley should not be that far behind in assessed value — although he does have a disadvantage by virtue of never making all-NBA, never being the best player on a conference finals team, and never appearing in the Finals in any capacity at all.

Third I think is Strickland. Fair longevity considering his playstyle. Had a decent peak/prime throughout 1993-99. Impressive playmaker for the era. Less of a franchise piece in his era, but in different eras I see him with some star potential.

Sam Cassell is fourth. At his best acted as a nice second option (2001 Bucks, 2004 Wolves, and 2006 Clippers all had their best season in decades with him as a sidekick), and to his credit he was also a valued role-player on three title teams (only one of this group able to claim that). Nice peak in 2004. Could see him above Strickland, but again, I am looking more for star potential, and Cassell never hit that level for me.

Fifth… uh… probably lean Rondo on the basis of his title equity and that 2012 Heat series, but I see him and Jackson as a sizeable step down in star power. Both had runs on plenty of notable teams — 1992-2000 is a nice string of results for Mark Jackson — as tertiary figures at absolute best. Yeah, they make for stable starters, but I want more when ranking players all-time.

[KobesScarf]

Williams


Rondo


Strickland
Jackson/Conley/Cassel

[trex_8063]

My inclination was as follows.....

Leaning toward Mike Conley in the top 2 at this point. 16 years in the league now, couple-three majorly dinged by injury, though he's been at least a "useful" player in all of them, peaking at roughly All-NBA 2nd level: had 1 or 2 years where he was reliable for ~18/6 with excellent turnover economy for borderline contenders, while garnering All-D consideration, too. Another year he went for 21/6 on very good efficiency for a low-level playoff team.
He now leads all of the above in rs WS, just barely ahead of Mark Jackson [though Jackson had one extra season and more than 270 more games to get there]. Admittedly Conley is only 5th in playoffs, ahead of just Strickland. He's 3rd in rs VORP [4th in playoffs].

I'd give Conley the nod as the best locker-room presence of all of them, fwiw. His impact profile rivals anyone in this grouping as well.


The other guy who's in the top 2 for me is Gus Williams. Even relative to era, I'm not sure he peaked definitively higher than Conley [or Cassell], at least in the rs. He does seem more playoff-resilient than either, though, and certainly has more notable playoff successes than Conley to his credit. Weaker era, however [imo]. His longevity suffers somewhat vs the field, as well. Like Conley, he's valuable on both sides of the ball.


I'd probably go with Cassell in 3rd. Decent peak: 2nd-best player averaging around 20/7 on decent efficiency for a contender-level team. Key cog in two title teams, won a third chip as an extra piece on the '08 Celtics. Longevity is solid.


Very close 4th [3b] is Mark Jackson for me. Probably the lowest peak of the six, but just so steady thru a durable 17-year career (best of the six in terms of meaningful longevity). At multiple spots in his career was averaging something between 8/8 to 11/9 for some fringe contenders.


Bottom spots probably belong to Rondo and Strickland for me. Strickland's a toxic team presence, according some accounts, whose apparent impact consistently trailed behind his box production (which is admittedly pretty substantial). He peaked around a 19/9 player on average(ish) all-around efficiency for a low-level playoff team [which was, to his credit, decent offensively]. He has the least relevant playoff career [handily]. His longevity is pretty good, though.

Rondo is arguably the strongest defender of them, but I think he's also the worst offensive player among them. His longevity is not great among this group (perhaps only beats out Williams in this regard). "Playoff Rondo" was sometimes a thing, though, and he's got some considerable playoff successes to his credit (likely the best average teammates of everyone though).

[SpreeS]

1st tier Gus Conley
2nd tier Cassell
3rd tier Strickland Rondo Jackson

[trex_8063]

fwiw, the consensus of opinion ranking for responders so far (giving 6 pts for 1st place down to 1 pt for 6th place [making judgments on placement based on statements for penbeast0, and allowing for ties and/or half-point compromises where posters were not 100% clear on placement]) is as follows......

Gus Williams (28.5 pts)
Mike Conley (23.5 pts)
Sam Cassell (16 pts)
Rajon Rondo (13 pts)
Mark Jackson (12 pts)
Rod Strickland (12 pts)

.....which seems pretty close to right to me, except I'd have Jackson a nudge ahead of Strickland or Rondo, and Conley more dead-even to Williams (though my criteria leans heavier on meaningful longevity than most).

[Dr Positivity]

1. Gus Williams - relative short prime but easily the highest peak being the best offensive player on champion/finals team and then later having a 1st team All NBA.
2. Mike Conley - Long solid career, good fit with any team
3. Sam Cassell - Better as one of the two best players on a team than Conley like his Clippers run, probably worse as the 3rd or 4th best ones.
4. Mark Jackson - have to build a team around him more than the above guys imo but still good
5. Rajon Rondo - Hurt by longevity, like his prime due to the playoff performances
6. Rod Strickland - Not the biggest expert on this guy. Seems like he was ok.