How good was peak Dr. J?

[Goudelock]

those players from 70s look slow and unathletic compared to now

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Of course they're going to look unathletic, it's a game from almost 40 years ago. Training and all that good stuff wasn't as advanced or developed back then. However, that doesn't need to affect your enjoyment of the games though.

then again, that all-star game that was posted doesn't really support that notion. Westphal, Thompson, and Erving all threw down some nice dunks. And you had a guy like McAdoo shooting jumpers off the dribble at 6'10.

[Pablo Novi]

After Its First 2-3 Years, The ABA's Level-Of-Play Equalled The NBA's
ABA: During its first couple of years (and before Dr. J. joined the League); the ABA's level of play was definitely inferior to that of the NBA's during those two years. But, with each passing year after that, we "KNOW" that the quality of the ABA's top players was about-equal to that of the NBA's top players because:

i) The ABA won a higher and higher percent of the hotly-contested inter-League exhibition games (and more than half overall);

ii) Ex-ABA players got their "fair share" of All-NBA 1st-Team and 2nd-Team honors after the merger;

iii) Three of the four ex-ABA teams more than held their own after the merger (averaging more than 50% wins, collectively); while the fourth team, the Nets did poorer (due to having been "raped" by the NBA).

Dr. J Was The 7th Greatest NBA-ABA-NBL Player Of All-Time (GOAT #7)
IMO, Dr. J.'s ABA career definitely should count in all his records (and all NBA records; as Basketball-Reference includes them); as well as ALL the ABA stats should be included in NBA stats*.

For me, Dr. J's PEAK was during his ABA days. That PEAK was just about as good as any other player's ever.

There were times that to get thru a double-team where the two opposing players were very close together, Dr. J would dribble between his legs while squeezing between them - AMAZING ball control and IQ. He was UNSTOPPABLE on isos.

His play in the last ABA Finals against a team with a better record and, matched up against perhaps THE best defensive player in either League, Bobby Jones ... his play that series was just incredible.

It WAS a combination of a GIANT coaching error and Dr. J's own classic unselfishness that led to him having lower numbers at first in the NBA - he ALWAYS did whatever his coach(es) asked of him.

In MY GOAT Rankings, I have Dr. J. as GOAT #2 SF (behind LeBron and ahead of Larry Bird). I have Dr. J. as overall GOAT #7
(behind: KAJ, Magic, MJ, LBJ, TD and Wilt; and ahead of Kobe, "Big 'O'" and Karl Malone - all in that order).

"Basketball - When Greatness Meets Class... "

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* MY BIGGEST GRIPE AGAINST THE NBA: It should treat the ABA and NBL with the same respect that the NFL treats the former AFL; but it does the opposite - it basically erases their existence! Heck, a number of current NBA teams began as NBL teams; and four current NBA teams began as ABA teams - imo, there's ZERO moral justification for "erasing" that!

[wojoaderge]

If anything it was a GM's error, not a coach's error. But they still had two excellent RSs

[bizil]

Peak-prime wise, the only SF's FOR SURE I would take over him are Bron, KD, and Bird. Until Bird and Magic got rolling, Doc was arguably the top perimeter player peak wise of all time. I know Oscar, Baylor, and West are in that mix for sure. BUT Doc's freak athletic ability, alpha dog scoring, and underrated floor game (passing, defense, rebounding as a package) was WAY AHEAD of his time.

He and Thompson were THE GUYS to put the freak athletic ability that drops jaws today ON THE MAP in the 70's. And if you include Doc's ABA resume, the only SF FOR SURE who has a better resume is Lebron. Doc's overall scoring skillset wasn't very vast in comparison to some of the other all time great SF's or wing players. But his freakish athletic ability was so awesome that it SUPERCEDED weaknesses in his scoring arsenal.

Was frankly the FIRST great example of the exciting high flying superstar who could be the face of the league. And get casuals into the sport. And when Bird and Magic got hot, Doc WAS STILL a force and pretty much the Babe Ruth (along with Kareem) of the NBA. Even past his prime, he was still an All Star caliber player till the day he retired!

[OhayoKD]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Against the "World Champions" Erving put up 30/7/5 on 54.3 FG%, a far cry from being "shocked". I do agree there were some differences and areas where he had to adapt, but his actual gameplay wasn't close to a "massive drop".

The biggest reason for Erving drop in statistics is because of the talent he had on his team. I mean, you have a team that at the top 4 are better than the Current Cavaliers with Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Doug Collins (20 PPG in 1976), and World B. Free. Erving took it upon himself to integrate himself into the team rather than have the team revolve around him.

His impact speaks for itself, .33 SRS team in 1976 to 3.78 SRS in 1977, from a top 10 team to a top 2/3 team in the league. Increasing a team by ~3.5 SRS is getting into all-time great levels.

Then why didn't Erving's assist numbers improve?

If his scoring tanked and he became a greater facilitator/assister then I could see that as an explanation, but that didn't happen. His scoring output tanked AND his assisting took a hit.

His rebounding tanked too.

Every aspect of his game was less effective when he moved to the nba. He did adapt and recover over time though.

Plus minus doesn't view his nba translation all that favorably either:

Thanks to the wonderful work of Harvey Pollack and others, Erving’s transition into the NBA is like hopping into a time machine. Pollack tracked plus-minus data for Philadelphia, and as a result we can use Augmented Plus-Minus (AuPM) to evaluate his impact on those teams. Below I’ve plotted the percentiles of his AuPM values and their typical ranking in a given season
...
As you can see, Erving’s results were subpar for a perceived superstar. He generated only two top-50 seasons (per this metric) and never showed up as a top-20 player in a given year.

FWIW Philly also underperformed expectations(partially derived form his ABA play) significantly until Kevin Dur-- I mean Moses Malone arrived.

He's got a top 10-worthy resume but I'm not sure I'd put his peak patciualrly close. I don't have Kobe as a top 10 level peak right now, but he probably peaked higher if you account for the league split

[Ambrose]

This question is really hard for me because I find it difficult to rate the ABA, especially considering that Erving's stats massively dropped across the board the moment he entered the nba. Not just a slight drop, we're talking a massive drop, like a shock to the system, "man these guys are good."

Then he slowly recovered from this initial shock in competitiveness and slowly raised his numbers back to relatively high status.

The peaks project overrates his peak. Wade's peak, for example, is better in my opinion.

Against the "World Champions" Erving put up 30/7/5 on 54.3 FG%, a far cry from being "shocked". I do agree there were some differences and areas where he had to adapt, but his actual gameplay wasn't close to a "massive drop".

The biggest reason for Erving drop in statistics is because of the talent he had on his team. I mean, you have a team that at the top 4 are better than the Current Cavaliers with Julius Erving, George McGinnis, Doug Collins (20 PPG in 1976), and World B. Free. Erving took it upon himself to integrate himself into the team rather than have the team revolve around him.

His impact speaks for itself, .33 SRS team in 1976 to 3.78 SRS in 1977, from a top 10 team to a top 2/3 team in the league. Increasing a team by ~3.5 SRS is getting into all-time great levels.

Then why didn't Erving's assist numbers improve?

If his scoring tanked and he became a greater facilitator/assister then I could see that as an explanation, but that didn't happen. His scoring output tanked AND his assisting took a hit.

His rebounding tanked too.

Every aspect of his game was less effective when he moved to the nba. He did adapt and recover over time though.

LeBron averaged less points and assists after going to the Heat. It's what happens when you go to better teams and aren't asked to do as much.

[Ein Sof]

Current superstars like LJ or Curry

Or 2019 Danny Green or 2021 Rudy Gobert or 22 year old Blake Griffin...