Official 2023 Wizards OFFSEASON Thread

[pcbothwel]

The wild card with a Beal trade is what we take back.
Getting no long-term salary, a couple rotation pieces, and 1-2 HEAVILY protected 1st is equal to better 1st, but not other prospects and a bad contract.
So its all relative.
- We wont take on Ben Simmons and I dont blame them. On paper it would be worth it, but if you are trying to rebuild and keep morale high you cant have Simmons moping around unless you are really getting compensated for it.
- Miami and Philly would be great fits, but they dont have the picks.
- GSW is interesting, but Poole is just AWFUL and has 4 years on his deal is WAY too long.
- NOP is the best straight up fit in terms of contracts (CJ), fit, and assets.

I more creative version would be us moving Beal (B+ Player) to a team with an older B- Player and a pick. Then sending the B- player to a 3rd team for filler and additional picks. Candidates:
- Bucks: Would a Middleton, Beauchamp, + pick for Beal work? Sending Middleton elsewhere?
- GSW: Could we get Klay and pick, then Send Klay to the Kings, Lakers, etc.?

Wild Card... Hornets. With Beal locked into a contract, they can afford the risk. Hayward, Rozier, Kai jones, Bouknight, #27(DEN pick), #34, and 2027 protected 1st for Beal & Monte/Delon.
Hornets have immediately have playoff team with Ball, Beal, and Bridges. And still have their top 5 pick and Mark Williams.

Not my favorite, but trying to think outside the box. Again, Beal is locked up for 4 years and I could see a team ready to make the leap (Hornets, Magic, etc) willing to make the trade without the pressure of needing to compete for a title in year 1 to keep the Vet happy.

[payitforward]

Man, I really wish we had a player like Jimmy Butler....

Jimmy is my candidate for MVP this year. He's had an extraordinary season -- beyond anything he's ever done. & he's done plenty!

https://streamable.com/z4a2o1

-- Nobody says, "I should be MVP."

Embiid has had a terrific season, obviously, but I'd say Jimmy has been even better. Keep in mind that Centers in general put up bigger raw numbers overall than wings do.

As far as that goes, Embiid's numbers aren't nearly as good as Jokic's numbers -- you could give him MVP pretty much every year.

In fact, if you give it to someone else, it's really the "almost as valuable as Jokic" award!

That said... it's Jimmy Butler for me this year.

[payitforward]

I haven't watched this yet but didn't want to forget to link it....

Watch on YouTube

Edit -- I just watched first five minutes. When he started praising Kuzma's break out season, I closed it.

[DCZards]

Jimmy is my candidate for MVP this year. He's had an extraordinary season -- beyond anything he's ever done. & he's done plenty!

https://streamable.com/z4a2o1

-- Nobody says, "I should be MVP."

Embiid has had a terrific season, obviously, but I'd say Jimmy has been even better. Keep in mind that Centers in general put up bigger raw numbers overall than wings do.

As far as that goes, Embiid's numbers aren't nearly as good as Jokic's numbers -- you could give him MVP pretty much every year.

In fact, if you give it to someone else, it's really the "almost as valuable as Jokic" award!

That said... it's Jimmy Butler for me this year.

Embiid is an outstanding 2-way player who had yet another great season. Led his team to a third seed…and 10 more wins than Butler’s Heat.

Embiid and Joker are neck-and-neck…as they were last season. It’s Embiid for MVP for me.

[Kanyewest]

Jimmy is my candidate for MVP this year. He's had an extraordinary season -- beyond anything he's ever done. & he's done plenty!

https://streamable.com/z4a2o1

-- Nobody says, "I should be MVP."

Embiid has had a terrific season, obviously, but I'd say Jimmy has been even better. Keep in mind that Centers in general put up bigger raw numbers overall than wings do.

As far as that goes, Embiid's numbers aren't nearly as good as Jokic's numbers -- you could give him MVP pretty much every year.

In fact, if you give it to someone else, it's really the "almost as valuable as Jokic" award!

That said... it's Jimmy Butler for me this year.

Butler has stepped it up. Might actually be mvp if the award extended to the postseason. Interesting that the Hawks were able to contain him.

Mvp or not, Butler has proven to be really good. Crazy that he went through a stretch of 4 teams in a couple years. He could have been had by a lot of teams.

[NatP4]

And he’s always been good, through every situation/team he’s played in. The league just doesn’t care about defense, and actually being accountable and wanting to win rubs a lot of people the wrong way.

[nate33]

Jimmy is my candidate for MVP this year. He's had an extraordinary season -- beyond anything he's ever done. & he's done plenty!

https://streamable.com/z4a2o1

-- Nobody says, "I should be MVP."

Embiid has had a terrific season, obviously, but I'd say Jimmy has been even better. Keep in mind that Centers in general put up bigger raw numbers overall than wings do.

As far as that goes, Embiid's numbers aren't nearly as good as Jokic's numbers -- you could give him MVP pretty much every year.

In fact, if you give it to someone else, it's really the "almost as valuable as Jokic" award!

That said... it's Jimmy Butler for me this year.

I love Jimmy Butler and I can see an advanced stats argument that he was the 2nd best player in the league this year. But if we are relying on advanced stats, then you have to go with Jokic again. Jokic put up even better numbers than Butler, and his team finished 1st in the West. And his on/off numbers are just preposterous.

So basically, if you are from the "I don't believe my lying eyes" school and you just follow the numbers, it's Jokic over Butler. And if you are incorporating "eye test", counting stats, and subjective dominance, maybe you go with Embiid or Giannis over Jokic. But I don't see a criteria where Butler comes out in first place overall.

[payitforward]

https://streamable.com/z4a2o1

-- Nobody says, "I should be MVP."

Embiid has had a terrific season, obviously, but I'd say Jimmy has been even better. Keep in mind that Centers in general put up bigger raw numbers overall than wings do.

As far as that goes, Embiid's numbers aren't nearly as good as Jokic's numbers -- you could give him MVP pretty much every year.

In fact, if you give it to someone else, it's really the "almost as valuable as Jokic" award!

That said... it's Jimmy Butler for me this year.

I love Jimmy Butler and I can see an advanced stats argument that he was the 2nd best player in the league this year. But if we are relying on advanced stats, then you have to go with Jokic again. Jokic put up even better numbers than Butler, and his team finished 1st in the West. And his on/off numbers are just preposterous.

So basically, if you are from the "I don't believe my lying eyes" school and you just follow the numbers, it's Jokic over Butler. And if you are incorporating "eye test", counting stats, and subjective dominance, maybe you go with Embiid or Giannis over Jokic. But I don't see a criteria where Butler comes out in first place overall.

As to Jokic, no doubt about it! It's the very point I made. There is no one in a class with the guy!

Aside from Jokic, sure... you can make a case for a few guys -- including Luka. Haliburton too for that matter! I'm not sure I've ever seen numbers like his from a guard.

There are some truly great players in the league right now! & it's close enough at the top (the "top" just below Jokic, I mean) that I don't think one could make an air-tight conclusive argument for one of that handful over the others.

Certainly, Joel Embiid is tremendous. Giannis too, obviously -- & those 2 lead the pack in scoring. But, overall, taking position into account (to offset the natural numbers advantage bigs have from how many more boards they get, etc.), & leaving Jokic out of it, my call this year would be Jimmy Butler.

I don't think he'll get it, but I'd be happy if he did.

[DCZards]

Aside from Jokic, sure... you can make a case for a few guys -- including Luka. Haliburton too for that matter! I'm not sure I've ever seen numbers like his from a guard.

Personally, I don’t think you can make the MVP case for any player whose team didn’t make the playoffs.

And if you’re going to ding KP for the Zards only winning 35 games--as you often do--don’t you have to ding Haliburton whose Indy team had the exact same record as the Zards?

[The Consiglieri]

Man, I really wish we had a player like Jimmy Butler. His basketball IQ and competitiveness are completely insane. The gap between him and a player like Bradley Beal is massive.

The playoffs have been very entertaining, and have made it so blatantly obvious that the wizards are nowhere close to a winning culture.

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

[dckingsfan]

Man, I really wish we had a player like Jimmy Butler. His basketball IQ and competitiveness are completely insane. The gap between him and a player like Bradley Beal is massive.

The playoffs have been very entertaining, and have made it so blatantly obvious that the wizards are nowhere close to a winning culture.

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

[payitforward]

Aside from Jokic, sure... you can make a case for a few guys -- including Luka. Haliburton too for that matter! I'm not sure I've ever seen numbers like his from a guard.

Personally, I don’t think you can make the MVP case for any player whose team didn’t make the playoffs.

And if you’re going to ding KP for the Zards only winning 35 games--as you often do--don’t you have to ding Haliburton whose Indy team had the exact same record as the Zards?

It takes more than KP or Haliburton to create a 35-47 season, Zards -- a whole bunch of guys have to contribute!

But, Haliburton is a true phenom! As I say, for a guard... he puts up some wow numbers!

I wasn't thinking of him as a candidate for MVP this year. But if he gets it one or more years in his career I won't be surprised.

[payitforward]

Man, I really wish we had a player like Jimmy Butler. His basketball IQ and competitiveness are completely insane. The gap between him and a player like Bradley Beal is massive.

The playoffs have been very entertaining, and have made it so blatantly obvious that the wizards are nowhere close to a winning culture.

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

Say more about whom you like & why....

[penbeast0]

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

Say more about whom you like & why....

As stars, none of them, the closest is a healthy Porzingis. As solid roleplayers: Morris, Wright, Kispert, Avdija, and Gafford all have value, maybe Goodwin, but I don't see any of them stepping up into a starring role.

[The Consiglieri]

Man, I really wish we had a player like Jimmy Butler. His basketball IQ and competitiveness are completely insane. The gap between him and a player like Bradley Beal is massive.

The playoffs have been very entertaining, and have made it so blatantly obvious that the wizards are nowhere close to a winning culture.

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

PIF already covered it for me, but just from my perspective, I think the team has some interesting bench guys here and there, and I think guys like Gafford, and Deni have some value, Kispert suggested a lot more value than I expected which I think is why he wont stay, but honestly, the pieces we have, beyond Beal, and Porzingis, are largely guys that would get few minutes on a quality team, and then you add that a core of Beal, Porzingis and the fantasy that Kuzma is worth resigning (should have been traded as everyone save the Wizards realized) is not really all that impressive at all. It wont move the needle, ever, in terms of contention, it might, be a 40ish game winner, but that's basically blech.

So yeah, I think we're where we've been about 80% of the time the last 35 years: a bottom quarter of the league side with a win ceiling of 40, a win floor of 20ish, and an expectation every season of 28-36 wins. In other words, forgetable garbage that isn't bad enough to land a pick that could change expectations, but isn't good enough to ever be anyone if we made the playoffs as an 8 seed. I don't think Ive ever seen a team so committed to being a touch below mediocre like the Wizards have been the past five decades. It's astonishing. They've literally been doing this since Carter lost to Reagan, 5 decades running, more than 40 years in all, and I'm 48. It's freaking crazy. Multiple ownerships, GM's, coaches has changed not a lick of any of it.

Best fans in the NBA, bar none, when you factor that in (I don't include myself as I watch passively, mostly disinterested beyond the trade deadline and the draft as I know the seasons will suck, 4 years out of 5, most half decades). The owners over the years have been so damn lucky they have you. Most other fan bases would have turned the tv off, and sold their season tickets eons ago.

[dckingsfan]

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

PIF already covered it for me, but just from my perspective, I think the team has some interesting bench guys here and there, and I think guys like Gafford, and Deni have some value, Kispert suggested a lot more value than I expected which I think is why he wont stay, but honestly, the pieces we have, beyond Beal, and Porzingis, are largely guys that would get few minutes on a quality team, and then you add that a core of Beal, Porzingis and the fantasy that Kuzma is worth resigning (should have been traded as everyone save the Wizards realized) is not really all that impressive at all. It wont move the needle, ever, in terms of contention, it might, be a 40ish game winner, but that's basically blech.

So yeah, I think we're where we've been about 80% of the time the last 35 years: a bottom quarter of the league side with a win ceiling of 40, a win floor of 20ish, and an expectation every season of 28-36 wins. In other words, forgetable garbage that isn't bad enough to land a pick that could change expectations, but isn't good enough to ever be anyone if we made the playoffs as an 8 seed. I don't think Ive ever seen a team so committed to being a touch below mediocre like the Wizards have been the past five decades. It's astonishing. They've literally been doing this since Carter lost to Reagan, 5 decades running, more than 40 years in all, and I'm 48. It's freaking crazy. Multiple ownerships, GM's, coaches has changed not a lick of any of it.

Best fans in the NBA, bar none, when you factor that in (I don't include myself as I watch passively, mostly disinterested beyond the trade deadline and the draft as I know the seasons will suck, 4 years out of 5, most half decades). The owners over the years have been so damn lucky they have you. Most other fan bases would have turned the tv off, and sold their season tickets eons ago.

I think the likes of Gafford, Wright and Morris would play meaningful minutes on a good team. I would add Kispert and Avidja to that as well. If there was a real big-3 where Porzingis was the 3rd of the big three - they would be fine.

A big 3 of Beal, Kuzma and Porzingis will never fly.

Edit: getting the big three right is the primary goal. Getting the supporting cast is tertiary.

[dobrojim]

If KP was 2nd and Beal the 3rd of the 'big 3', with a true star above them, we'd be okay.
Kuz, being a below avg player, can't be part of any big 3.

[dobrojim]

Or having winning top 10-15 player talent.

We can talk about culture all we want, but when the bulk of the roster is also garbage, culture is just a pretty cherry on top of dog doo. We have neither, just enough high floor talent to never pick in the top 3.

I don't think that the bulk of the roster is garbage. Just our big 3.

PIF already covered it for me, but just from my perspective, I think the team has some interesting bench guys here and there, and I think guys like Gafford, and Deni have some value, Kispert suggested a lot more value than I expected which I think is why he wont stay, but honestly, the pieces we have, beyond Beal, and Porzingis, are largely guys that would get few minutes on a quality team, and then you add that a core of Beal, Porzingis and the fantasy that Kuzma is worth resigning (should have been traded as everyone save the Wizards realized) is not really all that impressive at all. It wont move the needle, ever, in terms of contention, it might, be a 40ish game winner, but that's basically blech.

So yeah, I think we're where we've been about 80% of the time the last 35 years: a bottom quarter of the league side with a win ceiling of 40, a win floor of 20ish, and an expectation every season of 28-36 wins. In other words, forgetable garbage that isn't bad enough to land a pick that could change expectations, but isn't good enough to ever be anyone if we made the playoffs as an 8 seed. I don't think Ive ever seen a team so committed to being a touch below mediocre like the Wizards have been the past five decades. It's astonishing. They've literally been doing this since Carter lost to Reagan, 5 decades running, more than 40 years in all, and I'm 48. It's freaking crazy. Multiple ownerships, GM's, coaches has changed not a lick of any of it.

Best fans in the NBA, bar none, when you factor that in (I don't include myself as I watch passively, mostly disinterested beyond the trade deadline and the draft as I know the seasons will suck, 4 years out of 5, most half decades). The owners over the years have been so damn lucky they have you. Most other fan bases would have turned the tv off, and sold their season tickets eons ago.

I am composing an email reply to a Wiz tix rep who emailed me this morning. I'm using
Consig's comments as they rang true to this 66 yo fan who started watching the Bullets
when Earl Monroe and Wes Unseld were just beginning their respective careers.

My email will also reference TSW aka Kev Broom.

Here it is-

FWIW, I became a Bullets fan at the time Earl Monroe and a year later Unseld became Bullets.
I was about ten years old.

Here is a quote from a bulletin board post (RealGM) that I read this morning.
(You can read the whole thread at viewtopic.php?f=35&t=2277016&start=260)

The quote I thought was very on target.

Quote -

PIF already covered it for me, but just from my perspective, I think the team has some interesting bench guys here and there, and I think guys like Gafford, and Deni have some value, Kispert suggested a lot more value than I expected which I think is why he wont stay, but honestly, the pieces we have, beyond Beal, and Porzingis, are largely guys that would get few minutes on a quality team, and then you add that a core of Beal, Porzingis and the fantasy that Kuzma is worth resigning (should have been traded as everyone save the Wizards realized) is not really all that impressive at all. It wont move the needle, ever, in terms of contention, it might, be a 40ish game winner, but that's basically blech.

So yeah, I think we're where we've been about 80% of the time the last 35 years: a bottom quarter of the league side with a win ceiling of 40, a win floor of 20ish, and an expectation every season of 28-36 wins. In other words, forgetable garbage that isn't bad enough to land a pick that could change expectations, but isn't good enough to ever be anyone if we made the playoffs as an 8 seed. I don't think Ive ever seen a team so committed to being a touch below mediocre like the Wizards have been the past five decades. It's astonishing. They've literally been doing this since Carter lost to Reagan, 5 decades running, more than 40 years in all, and I'm 48. It's freaking crazy. Multiple ownerships, GM's, coaches has changed not a lick of any of it.

Best fans in the NBA, bar none, when you factor that in (I don't include myself as I watch passively, mostly disinterested beyond the trade deadline and the draft as I know the seasons will suck, 4 years out of 5, most half decades). The owners over the years have been so damn lucky they have you. Most other fan bases would have turned the tv off, and sold their season tickets eons ago.

-end quote

Others on RealGM are in large agreement with much of this. It’s pretty much inarguable.

I also frequently read Kevin Broom who contributes on Bullets Forever. Ted should hire him as a consultant.
(No, I’m not related to Kevin, I just want the Wizards to be a respectable franchise)

https://www.bulletsforever.com/authors/kevin-broom

His analysis can’t be any worse than what Mr Leonsis has been getting since becoming owner however many
years ago it was. It’s not clear to this observer that however seemingly well qualified team mgmt has been that
they have served ownership well. In turn, ownership has failed to recognize this reality and left complete
incompetents like Ernie Grunfeld in charge long after it was clear they had no business running an NBA team.

Do you know when the Wizards/Bullets last had a 50 win reg season? Answer- 1978 when this now retired 66 yo
was in still in college. It’s an astonishing record of futility. And yet I’m still a fan. But not enough of
one to commit to 20-41 games a season. Sorry.

I hope you’ll show this email to the powers that be and that it gets passed up the chain of command.

Nothing personal - I definitely don’t envy you your job.

Best wishes

Jim

[payitforward]

Nice job -- well done. I wish you'd included the URL of this forum...

[AFM]

Careful—I responded to a ticket rep similarly and they’ve sent me 5 emails since begging for my phone number.