Where does Harden rank in the all time list according to you?

edgymnerch · Post #1 » by **edgymnerch** » Tue Apr 25, 2023 12:19 pm

Nothing to elaborate here, just the title really

Amares · Post #2 » by **Amares** » Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:25 pm

He's top 25 about among Barkley/Wade/Nash tier.

Jaivl · Post #3 » by **Jaivl** » Tue Apr 25, 2023 1:55 pm

Cavsfansince84 · Post #4 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Tue Apr 25, 2023 6:25 pm

Still in the 30-34 group with guys like Hondo, Baylor and Pippen I'd say. Maybe above them but idk yet. Him vs Ewing is worth debating I think.

rk2023 · Post #5 » by **rk2023** » Tue Apr 25, 2023 8:02 pm

Lowest range of top 30.

GSP · Post #6 » by **GSP** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:27 am

Somewhere in the 30s. Closer to 40 than 29 tho

70sFan · Post #7 » by **70sFan** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:20 am

Around 30th spot.

Post #8 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:47 pm

Somewhere around 30?

I don't like Harden, I don't enjoy WATCHING Harden, but his collection of achievements and accolades is significant.

3 scoring titles, 2 assist titles. 13-20, an absolute monster in the RS and still basically a 28/6/7 dude in the playoffs. Griefed for not having a title, but his Rockets ran into the 2018 Warriors and gave them a 7-game fight a couple years after going down to them 4-1.

Aesthetically displeasing, but very effective. Everyone knows what happens when his 3 dries up and he hasn't been the same post-injury and all that, but he was a huge problem. And even this year, he's been able to make something of himself in a different role. 6MOY, MVP (and in the top 3 in voting 5x, top 5 another time).

That's not a resume you can ignore too far down, IMHO.

Narigo · Post #9 » by **Narigo** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:50 pm

Top 30

KobesScarf · Post #10 » by **KobesScarf** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:49 pm

Top 30 or so

An Unbiased Fan · Post #11 » by **An Unbiased Fan** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:50 pm

Top 50

iggymcfrack · Post #12 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:39 pm

Outside the top 30 which is as far as I’ve made a list for, but not that far outside. Probably around 40 or so.

iggymcfrack · Post #13 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:41 pm

tsherkin wrote:Somewhere around 30?

I don't like Harden, I don't enjoy WATCHING Harden, but his collection of achievements and accolades is significant.

3 scoring titles, 2 assist titles. 13-20, an absolute monster in the RS and still basically a 28/6/7 dude in the playoffs. Griefed for not having a title, but his Rockets ran into the 2018 Warriors and gave them a 7-game fight a couple years after going down to them 4-1.

Aesthetically displeasing, but very effective. Everyone knows what happens when his 3 dries up and he hasn't been the same post-injury and all that, but he was a huge problem. And even this year, he's been able to make something of himself in a different role. 6MOY, MVP (and in the top 3 in voting 5x, top 5 another time).

That's not a resume you can ignore too far down, IMHO.

It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

Post #14 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 8:34 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

I think it's really hard to ignore the full measure of his regular season performances to drop him that far down. He certainly has playoff issues because he relies so hard on "rim or 3" in tandem with his FTAs. But like David Robinson, he still draws just fine come the playoffs, he just can't do enough work elsewhere to really dominate. Passes well enough still, though not quite as effectively. He was a 28/6/7 guy on 57.8% TS and +6.1 OBPM in the playoffs, remember. Worse than his RS player, but still very good (again allowing for the limitations of OBPM). He's been worse in the three postseasons he's played in since, but that's hardly a fair reason to bring him down, is it? In his 30s, injured, crap team contexts...

iggymcfrack · Post #15 » by **iggymcfrack** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 9:34 pm

tsherkin wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

I think it's really hard to ignore the full measure of his regular season performances to drop him that far down. He certainly has playoff issues because he relies so hard on "rim or 3" in tandem with his FTAs. But like David Robinson, he still draws just fine come the playoffs, he just can't do enough work elsewhere to really dominate. Passes well enough still, though not quite as effectively. He was a 28/6/7 guy on 57.8% TS and +6.1 OBPM in the playoffs, remember. Worse than his RS player, but still very good (again allowing for the limitations of OBPM). He's been worse in the three postseasons he's played in since, but that's hardly a fair reason to bring him down, is it? In his 30s, injured, crap team contexts...

Just looking at PER for a quick and dirty comparison, his playoff numbers have been worse than his regular season numbers in 11 of the last 12 seasons, often much lower. He's famously had his worst games in the most high-leverage spots too, memorably completely disappearing in several do-or-die Game 6s. It's not about what he did in his 30s. In his 30s, he's actually managed to more closely approximate his regular season production. It's everything from the 2012 Finals where he averaged 12/5/4 all the way through the 2018 Western Conference Finals when up 3-2, one win away from history, he went 6/25 from three with 14 turnovers in the final two games. His entire athletic prime, he choked whenever he had the chance to actually accomplish something, probably worse than any superstar in history.

f4p · Post #16 » by **f4p** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:02 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

lol, the guy who has blown five 0-2 leads and a 3-1 lead is #11 with great playoff moments but harden can't crack top 35?

Post #17 » by **tsherkin** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:22 pm

iggymcfrack wrote:Just looking at PER for a quick and dirty comparison, his playoff numbers have been worse than his regular season numbers in 11 of the last 12 seasons, often much lower. He's famously had his worst games in the most high-leverage spots too, memorably completely disappearing in several do-or-die Game 6s. It's not about what he did in his 30s.

I don't disagree, my point was that the level of production he managed in the postseason was actually still good, even if it was lower than his RS production. He certainly isn't a high-end performer in the playoffs, but again, 13-20? 28.4 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 7.1 apg, 57.8% TS, +6.1 OBPM. That's Houston Harden in the playoffs. He certainly has his down moments, and even that production is a notable dip from his RS production, but it's a teeeeeeeeny bit oversold how much of a playoff dropper he is. Surely, of course, easier series counterbalance later ones, though. Just remember he put up +6.0 OBPM in 7 straight postseasons and led the entire playoffs one year at +7.5, which he'd later repeat (though it didn't lead the postseason), and he'd add another +7.0 after that.

No-more-rings · Post #18 » by **No-more-rings** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:23 pm

f4p wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

lol, the guy who has blown five 0-2 leads and a 3-1 lead is #11 with great playoff moments but harden can't crack top 35?

It’s all about the PER and BPMzzz. And “point gawdd”.

Colbinii · Post #19 » by **Colbinii** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:24 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
f4p wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

lol, the guy who has blown five 0-2 leads and a 3-1 lead is #11 with great playoff moments but harden can't crack top 35?

It’s all about the PER and BPMzzz. And “point gawdd”.

Did anyone even say that? :crazy:

Cavsfansince84 · Post #20 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:25 pm

f4p wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:It’s not just not winning a title though. It’s consistently underperforming when it matters most. Chris Paul never won a title, but he’s consistently played very well in the playoffs in big moments. I have Chris Paul #11 all-time, but I still can’t get there with Harden as even a top 35 guy.

lol, the guy who has blown five 0-2 leads and a 3-1 lead is #11 with great playoff moments but harden can't crack top 35?

I agree in the sense that CP3 is consistently good to very good in the playoffs but not in the biggest moments/games.