2022-23 Season Discussion and Review - the Blockbuster trade and playoff downfall

[Hitachi77]

Monty has us BARELY winning games vs the Kawhi and PG13 less Clipper team. Yet ppl wanna crown the dude.

OK, cool story bros.

Not crowning his ass. But incorporating a new superstar and getting lineups right in such a short timeframe is not an easy task.

[Iceman36]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

[Slim Charless]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

[lonea]

Reading online that Memphis/Bucks fans are upset of Taylor Jenkins/ Coach Bud’s rotations. My daily reminder to everyone that fans think they’re more qualified than NBA head coaches.

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Well the main problem is you have extreme examples like the Warriors shifting from a 5/6 seed to the best team in the league after the Mark Jackson -> Kerr change. So fans can’t help but wonder what if.

The what if I think of is Monty leaving the Suns, the Nets hire him as their head coach and Booker leaves Phoenix to reunite with Monty/Mikal in Brooklyn. Someone will hire Monty the minute he is available.

The grass isn’t always greener. The Suns are finally a respected franchise around the league and it’s all because of Monty Williams.


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Well, you remember what happen with Raptors and Dwayne Casey? They won their first championship after firing their coach of the year.

This will be Monty's 3rd straight year with the Suns within the window of championship contention. If he can't get it done this year, it's time for him to go.

[Ghost of Kleine]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

Could you imagine the relentless intensity and fight if a team had BOTH OF Jimmy Butler and Russell Westbrook on their team?? I'd hate to play that team for sure!

[SunsRback4Good]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

Milwaukee is overrated how exactly did the Suns lose to such an overrated team???

[spanishninja]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

the people underestimating the Heat forget that they have always given the Bucks problems, and they're basically the same team. It was only 3 years ago when Miami beat the Bucks in the ECF.

[starbosa10]

Still think Bucks win that series in 7

[Slim Charless]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

the people underestimating the Heat forget that they have always given the Bucks problems, and they're basically the same team. It was only 3 years ago when Miami beat the Bucks in the ECF.

I wonder if they go down, if they'll make wholesale changes. I'd love to be able to get Jrue from them. I'd give them Ayton for that, but he probably only nets us Mids whose knees are possibly shot.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I'm someone who thinks the players matter far more than coaching. Like in a playoff series the best 'adjustment' is usually players making shots and playing better. All these teams run similar sets and Ds and by this point in the season it's no secret how teams will play you.


So with that said I judge coaches far more on the CEO aspect and I tend to not really care about a rotation decision I don't agree with or a defensive strategy I don't like. I value having a clear vision and style and getting players to buy in. Establishing a winning culture and having guys play hard are important to me.

So I like Monty even though there are things he does that annoy me.

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[Slim Charless]

Still think Bucks win that series in 7

So does Vegas. They're getting only +150 for the series. Which is insane considering they're down 3-1. As a reference all of the other 3-1s currently the closest odds for the underdog are the Cavs at +400

[bwgood77]

When I see the possible first round upsets (Bucks, Griz), I'm very satisfyed with what we are doing so far...

The Über Jimmy Butler thing is pretty fun. I don't think I saw anyone call this beating they've given the Bucks-even Heat fans.

I'm over 40 and have been watching NBA for over 30 years and that might've been the best playoff game performance I ever saw. Milwaukee tried to stop him....and couldn't. That was amazing lol.

Miami shocked them like 3 years ago in the bubble year when the Bucks had dominated the regular season. Blown out opponents all year long and I think Miami knocked them out in 5.

[bwgood77]

Still think Bucks win that series in 7

Yeah, I think there is a good chance.

[bwgood77]

If we get 2021 Payne, I think that genuinely pushes our ceiling to inner-circle contender.

If Payne played like he did in 2021.. if Ayton played like he did in 2021.. if Crowder was still here.. if if if’s don’t work cause those scenarios won’t happen this year. Payne and Ayton aren’t magically going to find their magic from couple years ago. Maybe next year but WILL NOT F******* happen in this years playoffs. So for the love of god please spare me the IFFFF.

I don't see how we are not the contender or favorite anyway. Of course I have mentioned many times the one team that scared me was the Clips, and healthy they would have given us a hell of a series. No one else matches up well with us. MAYBE Boston and Milwaukee.

Memphis I thought could give trouble with a healthy Adams and Clarke with depth, defense and shooting, but without Adams it hurts them a lot..they lose a lot of toughness, and Clarke was very important as a great defensive bench guy. Ja is also playing like crap. The one game they won was with him out.

The Lakers could be an interesting matchup if they catch fire but I don't think they have quite the defense...and they usually shoot terribly. They likely lose to the Warriors or Kings anyway.

Denver shouldn't give us trouble. Zach Lowe even wrote a piece about how much better they were and had made changes, but he specifically mentioned they do not match up well with us (or didn't based on all our shooters the last couple years). He mentioned Jokic not being a rim protector or being able to switch hurt them against us. They also just don't have the defense at all. They would HAVE to outscore us. One thing he mentioned though was a big thing that has helped them is upgrading their defense with KCP and Brown. Here i some of it:

Spoiler:

If the Denver Nuggets are overlooked as a championship favorite relative to the typical No. 1 seed, it's because they ranked 15th in points allowed per possession. Even amid an unprecedented scoring boom, it's rare for teams with an average or worse defense to win the title.

The Nuggets ranked 15th last season, 11th two seasons ago, and 16th in 2019-20 -- the pandemic-interrupted season in which Denver won two seven-game series to advance to the conference finals. (This indeed happened, despite every postseason broadcast of the Nuggets featuring some reference to the pressure on Nikola Jokic to finally lead Denver deep into the playoffs.)

This is who the Nuggets are: an average defensive team. They have an all-world offense built around an all-galactic superstar, and a few teams with that profile -- incredible offense, blah defense -- have advanced to the promised land. But Denver's defense has backslid in each of the past four postseasons. The regular-season trend of Denver being stingier on defense with Jokic on the floor has not held up in the past three of those postseasons.

That's not entirely surprising. Every playoff opponent is good, and Jokic in the postseason plays more minutes against the best opposing lineups. In the past two playoffs, the Nuggets have missed critical players -- including Jamal Murray in both postseasons, and Michael Porter Jr. last season. Most of those missing players leaned offense, but part of whatever steadiness Denver has achieved on defense is linked to its scoring like gangbusters -- and setting its half-court defense.

Jokic brings some pluses on defense -- he is a transformative rebounder -- but he has real flaws. He is not a shot-blocker. Opponents shot 68.5% at the basket when Jokic was the closest defender, the second-highest (i.e., second-worst) mark among all players who challenged at least four such shots per game, according to NBA.com. He's not quick enough to switch onto most primary or secondary ball handlers.

Those two weaknesses place pretty strict limits on Denver's schematic flexibility. In the regular season, that isn't a huge deal. Teams mostly stick to their core schemes from game to game. If one opponent presents some issues, well, the next night things might be better.

The playoffs are totally different. You face the same team over and over. To win it all, you have to beat four teams four times apiece. Every opponent brings its own challenges. Even the best teams have to be at least somewhat nimble. One scheme might not work for all four series.

Denver during the Jokic/Michael Malone era has not been very nimble. It has been hard to calculate the cost of that rigidity, because the Nuggets were drawing dead -- due to injury -- in each of the past two postseasons.

That began to change in the regular season with tweaks against specific opponents, and has accelerated in Denver's first two wins in this series over the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's working so far; the Wolves have scored a minuscule 103.2 points per 100 possessions in two games despite shooting decently (37%) on 3s.

Against the pick-and-roll, Jokic has historically preferred an in-between style of coverage in which he tries to corral ball handlers at the level of the screen -- usually high on the floor, around the 3-point arc. That makes sense. Switching is a no-go for him. Dropping back -- the style preferred by lots of centers -- opens a long runway for ball handlers to rev up. That works for behemoths with speed, leaping ability, and exquisite timing. Leap headlong into Joel Embiid, and he'll meet you at the summit. A No. 1 option zooming at Jokic has a good shot at getting by him or finishing around him.

Jokic's go-to style doesn't quite amount to trapping opposing ball handlers, but it's close; the Nuggets put two on the ball, meaning the other three defenders have to temporarily defend four players.

Two years ago in the conference semifinals, a Phoenix Suns team with four shooters around Deandre Ayton tore that scheme to shreds. Over and over, Chris Paul and Devin Booker baited Jokic toward the 3-point arc and pinged the ball around before the Nuggets' defense could find its equilibrium again. The Suns' core lineups had no weak shooters -- no one Denver could ignore. The Nuggets could not keep up with the ball, or cover so much space.

The Nuggets in the offseason acquired two rugged, smart perimeter defenders in Bruce Brown and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. Part of the calculus, sources said then, was unlocking access to more schematic variety: stock the roster with guards who get over screens untouched, and perhaps Jokic might feel more comfortable hanging closer to the paint -- in turn allowing Denver's other three defenders to stick to shooters. A runway in front of you doesn't offer the same freedom of movement if your defender is right on your hip.

The Nuggets deploying more variety is a postseason trend to watch -- if they get by Minnesota. Is any kind of dropback scheme tenable against Kevin Durant, Chris Paul, and Devin Booker -- should the Suns survive against the LA Clippers? Probably not. But can the Nuggets (in schemes of all types) stray from Torrey Craig, Josh Okogie, and the rest of Phoenix's "fifth guy" candidates? Could they stash Jokic on those players, and have Gordon guard Ayton in stretches -- as the Clippers have for portions of their first-round series against Phoenix? Would the Suns counter by saying "to hell with defense" and giving most of those "fifth guy" minutes to Landry Shamet, Damion Lee, and Terrence Ross?

The Clippers are a powerful, flexible offense at full throttle, but something of a mystery now given injuries to Kawhi Leonard and Paul George. The Nuggets have also owned LA since humiliating the Clippers in the second round in the bubble.

On the other side of the bracket, the Los Angeles Lakers play several unproven 3-point shooters -- unless they go with more lineups featuring three guards, LeBron, and Anthony Davis. In a matchup with the Memphis Grizzlies, you can imagine Denver happily watching Dillon Brooks and David Roddy let it fly. The Golden State Warriors pick-and-rolled Jokic (and a much weaker supporting cast) to death in last year's postseason. The Sacramento Kings boast the league's best offense -- with shooting, shooting, and more shooting around Domantas Sabonis.

That's the challenge of the playoffs. This is Denver's best chance ever at a ring, and the Nuggets spent parts of this season gearing up for the challenge of guarding all types of offenses.

[sunsbum]

Anyone feel like the suns have taken some big strides of cohesiveness just in these last few games? Maybe its just CP and Ayton coming out of hibernation. If DA plays like he did in game 4 energy wise I feel really good about our team moving forward. Add Cam Payne back to the bench and *chef's kiss*

[bwgood77]

Anyone feel like the suns have taken some big strides of cohesiveness just in these last few games? Maybe its just CP and Ayton coming out of hibernation. If DA plays like he did in game 4 energy wise I feel really good about our team moving forward. Add Cam Payne back to the bench and *chef's kiss*

Yeah, I think so. I think Ayton especially takes a while to adjust to lineup changes. It really shouldn't impact his rebounding but moreso his offense and just playing within the flow and maybe some defensive rotations.

He played by his worst on both sides in 3 years this season but our lineup constantly changed for the majority of the season. In February when we started to get players back his efficiency was absurd (70% TS%, 67% FG%) and his rebounding was better. Maybe not as much defensively, but the after the all star break through the end of the season with big changes to the roster again, it suffered and his efficiency and overall play were much worse.

I think it does impact his motor but at least in part because his anticipation of what other players will do decreases so he overthinks things and freezes up a bit. Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect this is the case much of this year. His turnovers were his lowest too in Feb at about 1 a game. He was about 1.5-2.5 in the months before that. March he went up a tad.

Obviously he still needs to rebound more consistently, be more aggressive going to the rim and get back to contesting shots like he was a couple years ago. He was never a big shot blocker, so getting a couple blocks was nice, but he used alter and dissuade a lot of shots.

Hopefully he's more comfortable now and can get back to where he was. Not completely sure I trust it because it's been a pretty bad year overall from his previous standards but perhaps we can see a better version going forward these playoffs.

[Revived]

It’s a damn shame to see the Lakers win in round 1 and likely win in round 2 as well because Warriors/Kings can’t handle their size.

It’s so stupid from Danny Ainge and the idiot Wizards GM to just turn the Lakers into a contender man.

Going years back to the Gasol trade, why do teams bend over backwards to help the Lakers so damn much. Vando/Dlo we’re massive for them yesterday and they don’t win without either.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Anyone feel like the suns have taken some big strides of cohesiveness just in these last few games? Maybe its just CP and Ayton coming out of hibernation. If DA plays like he did in game 4 energy wise I feel really good about our team moving forward. Add Cam Payne back to the bench and *chef's kiss*

Yeah, I think so. I think Ayton especially takes a while to adjust to lineup changes. It really shouldn't impact his rebounding but moreso his offense and just playing within the flow and maybe some defensive rotations.

He played by his worst on both sides in 3 years this season but our lineup constantly changed for the majority of the season. In February when we started to get players back his efficiency was absurd (70% TS%, 67% FG%) and his rebounding was better. Maybe not as much defensively, but the after the all star break through the end of the season with big changes to the roster again, it suffered and his efficiency and overall play were much worse.

I think it does impact his motor but at least in part because his anticipation of what other players will do decreases so he overthinks things and freezes up a bit. Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect this is the case much of this year. His turnovers were his lowest too in Feb at about 1 a game. He was about 1.5-2.5 in the months before that. March he went up a tad.

Obviously he still needs to rebound more consistently, be more aggressive going to the rim and get back to contesting shots like he was a couple years ago. He was never a big shot blocker, so getting a couple blocks was nice, but he used alter and dissuade a lot of shots.

Hopefully he's more comfortable now and can get back to where he was. Not completely sure I trust it because it's been a pretty bad year overall from his previous standards but perhaps we can see a better version going forward these playoffs.

So if we're continuing the car metaphors for DA he's a Lamborghini. Looks nice and can perform really well but conditions need to be perfect. You need the right kind of gas and upkeep or you'll be disappointed



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[bwgood77]

Anyone feel like the suns have taken some big strides of cohesiveness just in these last few games? Maybe its just CP and Ayton coming out of hibernation. If DA plays like he did in game 4 energy wise I feel really good about our team moving forward. Add Cam Payne back to the bench and *chef's kiss*

Yeah, I think so. I think Ayton especially takes a while to adjust to lineup changes. It really shouldn't impact his rebounding but moreso his offense and just playing within the flow and maybe some defensive rotations.

He played by his worst on both sides in 3 years this season but our lineup constantly changed for the majority of the season. In February when we started to get players back his efficiency was absurd (70% TS%, 67% FG%) and his rebounding was better. Maybe not as much defensively, but the after the all star break through the end of the season with big changes to the roster again, it suffered and his efficiency and overall play were much worse.

I think it does impact his motor but at least in part because his anticipation of what other players will do decreases so he overthinks things and freezes up a bit. Maybe I'm wrong but I suspect this is the case much of this year. His turnovers were his lowest too in Feb at about 1 a game. He was about 1.5-2.5 in the months before that. March he went up a tad.

Obviously he still needs to rebound more consistently, be more aggressive going to the rim and get back to contesting shots like he was a couple years ago. He was never a big shot blocker, so getting a couple blocks was nice, but he used alter and dissuade a lot of shots.

Hopefully he's more comfortable now and can get back to where he was. Not completely sure I trust it because it's been a pretty bad year overall from his previous standards but perhaps we can see a better version going forward these playoffs.

So if we're continuing the car metaphors for DA he's a Lamborghini. Looks nice and can perform really well but conditions need to be perfect. You need the right kind of gas and upkeep or you'll be disappointed

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Certainly not the car I'd use..I'd have to think of something else if I had to use cars. He can be really good at various things but is a lot better with consistent reps with the same players on the floor. A car isn't the best comparison for coming up with some good analogy.

I think it happens with players sometimes. With the right mix of teammates and consistency they are better and if not, maybe they don't look nearly as good. A guy like Lauri Markkanen is more due to situation and how utilized but early in his career he also had various coaching, roles, switched teams, etc.

[Revived]

If Monty didn’t play Shamet, that would solve half the complaints against him. But he’s rather play him and risk a loss and negative minutes instead.