Current Jimmy vs peak Harden

[rate_]

Who you got?

2023 Jimmy
RS: 23/6/5 | 64.7% TS | 27.6 PER | .277 WS/48 | 8.6 BPM
PS: 37/6/5 | 70.8% TS | 37.4 PER | .377 WS/48 | 11.7 BPM

Peak Harden (2020 stats)
RS: 34/7/8 | 62.6% TS | 29.1 PER | .254 WS/48 | 9.6 BPM
PS: 30/6/8 | 63.6% TS | 27.5 PER | .253 WS/48 | 9.4 BPM

[GSP]

20, 22 and 23 Jimmy is prolly all flatout better player than any Harden once you factor in the massive defensive gap. Arguably Philly and Minny versions of Jimmy too but he was injured in Minny and he got to Philly late. But looking at how Philly choked and underperformed in playoffs over and over after Jimmy left - including Jimmy outplaying Joel and eliminating them last year - and they were literally game 7 last shot away w/ Jimmy VS historically good Kawhi Raps team his impact has prolly been massive for a while just not accepted till Miami. They got blown out game 1 VS Toronto w/ Ben handling then they moved him to dunker spot and made Jimmy the ballhandler and went 3-3 and he was competing with playoff Kawhi........

Just a more resilient offensive player too. Harden is def better in the Rs but if you place a premium and weigh playoff much higher its Jimmy.

[AEnigma]

I will say this for Jimmy:

1) I do not see him ever being benched the way Harden was in Game 6 against the Clippers, because his defence is too good.

2) His best games outpace anything we have ever seen from Harden in the postseason.

Beyond that, although I certainly understand those who prefer Butler overall, I would rather consider that debate in the offseason. Peak postseason Harden still averaged 30/6/7/1/2 on 60% efficiency while sharing playmaking duties with other ball dominant guards. 2022/23 Butler does currently seem better, but these samples are small enough that they can swing rapidly.

[iggymcfrack]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

[OhayoKD]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

Eh that seems like a stretch. Harden's 2020 was an all-timer IMO. Think People have retroactively overrated Jimmy's 2020 and 2019 runs. Bam was probably the better player through the first 3 rounds in 2020 and Embid was the centerpiece the year before.

[OhayoKD]

20, 22 and 23 Jimmy is prolly all flatout better player than any Harden once you factor in the massive defensive gap.

This gets us back to how much a "massive" gap in the scale of guards translates on a general scale where even the greatest defensive guards don't really touch the best wings let alone the best bigs

FWIW, I think Harden's defense in 2020 was quite solid and held up well in the playoffs. He also performed very well from a scoring and playmaking standpoint against an all-time Lakers defense despite his co-star being cooked by injury and medicore spacing after a truly dominant first round showing vs OKC.

And that's off taking the best team ever to the brink b2b(especially impressive in 2019 with Chris-Paul diminished and his team just massively under-talented).

I'd agree Jimmy's best games/series are better(as they are relative to many players conventionally ranked higher) but I think you exaggerate the gap here.

[Statlanta]

I'll take Harden because the team will at least will have the consistency of health. Being a high seed means you don't need these legendary performances in the first place.

[LukaTheGOAT]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

Harden was better in 19, 20, and 21 in the PS, so I would be curious which PS you could be referring to since Butler's best runs have him most recently.

[jalengreen]

Games played

'20 Butler: 58/73 (0.795)
'21 Butler: 52/72 (0.722)
'22 Butler: 57/82 (0.695)
'23 Butler: 64/82 (0.780)

'18 Harden: 72/82 (0.878)
'19 Harden: 78/82 (0.951)
'20 Harden: 68/72 (0.944)

Out of curiosity, what do people think of Butler's shooting improvement in the playoffs? In 231 regular season games with the Heat over the past four seasons, he's attempted 1.9 3PA/g at 26.6%. In 46 playoff games with the Heat, he's attempted 3.1 3PA/g at 35.7%.

[iggymcfrack]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

Eh that seems like a stretch. Harden's 2020 was an all-timer IMO. Think People have retroactively overrated Jimmy's 2020 and 2019 runs. Bam was probably the better player through the first 3 rounds in 2020 and Embid was the centerpiece the year before.

Ain’t no way in hell Harden was better than Jimmy in the bubble. Yeah, he had a little better offensive numbers, but Jimmy played incredible D, knocked out MVP Giannis and the 1 seed Bucks in 5 and single-handedly carried the Heat to a couple wins in the Finals with a 40 point triple double and a 35 point triple double in the only Heat wins that series.

[MyUniBroDavis]

The argument for Jimmy is pretty much entirely based off Playoff Jimmy

I think it depends, at the end of the Day playoff Jimmy is bubble finals, 2022 Jimmy, and 2023 Jimmy

I think healthy 2022 Jimmy was better than anything harden showed in the postseason personally (which isn’t really a knock on harden, Jimmy might have been the best in the league healthy that playoffs).

2023 Jimmy so far has been a step above that but we’re 4 games in. If they continue to go on a run, Jimmy plays at this level and they maybe get like to the ECF or something or maybe even the finals (a huuuge stretch) this run becomes something you compare to ATG runs ever for sure. He’s averaging 36-5-5 on 2 turnovers a game on 60-50-75 splits, and 2 games got cut short cuz of blowouts in both directions (and he dropped 25 in 28 minutes, and 30 in 28 minutes in both games)

[ShaqAttac]

Jimbo built diff. Would pick him for sho. Bro solod ad n bron for 2 games

[Cavsfansince84]

Jimmy's just built much better to be a great bb player than Harden is and that matters more in the playoffs than in the rs when everything gets tightened up and Harden is trying to rely on step back 25 footers.

[OhayoKD]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

Eh that seems like a stretch. Harden's 2020 was an all-timer IMO. Think People have retroactively overrated Jimmy's 2020 and 2019 runs. Bam was probably the better player through the first 3 rounds in 2020 and Embid was the centerpiece the year before.

Ain’t no way in hell Harden was better than Jimmy in the bubble. Yeah, he had a little better offensive numbers, but Jimmy played incredible D, knocked out MVP Giannis and the 1 seed Bucks in 5 and single-handedly carried the Heat to a couple wins in the Finals with a 40 point triple double and a 35 point triple double in the only Heat wins that series.

You overrate the value of the gap between elite guard defense and solid guard defense I think. What knocked Giannis out was a combination of red-hot team-wide shooting, injury, and most importantly, Bam Abedayo preventing Giannis from effectively helping on defensively and forcing him to be a playmaker on the other end.

Bam did carry them to two wins in the finals, but he wasn't "carrying them" before that. Bam was the bigger factor vs the Celtics and the Bucks

[LukaTheGOAT]

This is Jimmy’s 3rd playoffs in 4 years that’s way better than any playoffs Harden ever had. I vote Jimmy.

Eh that seems like a stretch. Harden's 2020 was an all-timer IMO. Think People have retroactively overrated Jimmy's 2020 and 2019 runs. Bam was probably the better player through the first 3 rounds in 2020 and Embid was the centerpiece the year before.

Ain’t no way in hell Harden was better than Jimmy in the bubble. Yeah, he had a little better offensive numbers, but Jimmy played incredible D, knocked out MVP Giannis and the 1 seed Bucks in 5 and single-handedly carried the Heat to a couple wins in the Finals with a 40 point triple double and a 35 point triple double in the only Heat wins that series.

Saying Harden had a little better offensive numbers for the whole PS run is really understating things:

In the 2020 PS

Harden averaged an IA 29.7 pts per 5 (rTS% of 8%)

Estimated PlayVal (Playmaking Value) +1.56 points per 100 possessions

Backpicks BPM-7.17

AuPM/G-4.2

RAPTOR-10.6


In the 2020 PS

Butler averaged an IA 22.6 pts per 75 possessions (rTS% of 6.7%)

Estimated PlayVal (Playmaking Value) +0.91 points per 100 possessions

Backpicks BPM-5.84

RAPTOR-4.4

AuPM/G-3.5


Their runs measured by PIPM:

Read on Twitter

By just about every measure we have, Harden's offensive value was so significant, he grades out better than Butler in the all-in-one metrics we have.

Of course, you need to adjust for defensive competition, and things of that nature, but to say Harden was only a bit ahead offensively doesn't seem quite accurate.

Up through the first 3 rounds, Bam Adebayo often graded out as a better player through the PS than Butler did, though unfortunately I do not have the numbers handy.

However, I did make a comment here on the matter, at the time, that a few people agreed with viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1940457&p=85682826&hilit=bam#p85682826

[capfan33]

I think I trust Jimmy more but Im not sure that actually makes him a better overall player in the playoffs.

[OhayoKD]

Eh that seems like a stretch. Harden's 2020 was an all-timer IMO. Think People have retroactively overrated Jimmy's 2020 and 2019 runs. Bam was probably the better player through the first 3 rounds in 2020 and Embid was the centerpiece the year before.

Ain’t no way in hell Harden was better than Jimmy in the bubble. Yeah, he had a little better offensive numbers, but Jimmy played incredible D, knocked out MVP Giannis and the 1 seed Bucks in 5 and single-handedly carried the Heat to a couple wins in the Finals with a 40 point triple double and a 35 point triple double in the only Heat wins that series.

Saying Harden had a little better offensive numbers for the whole PS run is really understating things:

In the 2020 PS

Harden averaged an IA 29.7 pts per 5 (rTS% of 8%)

Estimated PlayVal (Playmaking Value) +1.56 points per 100 possessions

Backpicks BPM-7.17

AuPM/G-4.2

RAPTOR-10.6


In the 2020 PS

Butler averaged an IA 22.6 pts per 75 possessions (rTS% of 6.7%)

Estimated PlayVal (Playmaking Value) +0.91 points per 100 possessions

Backpicks BPM-5.84

RAPTOR-4.4

AuPM/G-3.5


Their runs measured by PIPM:

Read on Twitter

By just about every measure we have, Harden's offensive value was so significant, he grades out better than Butler in the all-in-one metrics we have.

Of course, you need to adjust for defensive competition, and things of that nature, but to say Harden was only a bit ahead offensively doesn't seem quite accurate.

Up through the first 3 rounds, Bam Adebayo often graded out as a better player through the PS than Butler did, though unfortunately I do not have the numbers handy.

However, I did make a comment here on the matter, at the time, that a few people agreed with viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1940457&p=85682826&hilit=bam#p85682826

Bam grading out as better is somewhat suprising considering his defensive value wouldn't be fully captured here.

I do think Bam's playmaking went under the radar

[rate_]

BPM, PER, WS/48, although not the most reliable, all has peak playoff Jimmy at least a level above.

[TheGOATRises007]

Butler's numbers on his current run will likely dip a bit, but unless they completely falter off - his last 2 playoff runs are pretty much MJ/LeBron-like.

Hard to make an argument for any perimeter player over that.

[Djoker]

BPM, PER, WS/48, although not the most reliable, all has peak playoff Jimmy at least a level above.

That isn't anywhere near enough of a playoff gap to take him above Harden who is a much better regular season player.

Butler never finished higher than 10th in MVP voting or got 1st or even 2nd Team All-NBA. Let's pump the brakes here!