Giannis Antetokounmpo 22-23 Thread - any thoughts on his season/playoffs overall?

[tsherkin]

It would be one thing if Giannis was "forcing things"(taking the ball away from jrue/middleton) but Giannis went in transition or when jrue/mid couldn't find anything. The value of efficiency is relative. Giannis was bailing out a team that couldn't do anything without him(the "2" in 2/6 came from giannis passes) even though they were supposed to be built so that Giannis didn't have to bail them out(keeping in mind that bigs, even two-way ones, aren't typically asked to do the creation AND the scoring for their teams).

I'm gonna say that if you're shooting that poorly and it's a one-possession thing, then efficiency very much matters. I hear you with the other good things he was doing, so some of the criticism might be tempered. And for the first three quarters, and in OT, I'm with you. But 7 turnovers (3 of which came in the 4th and OT), 1/9 in the fourth, blowing his FTs... at some point, the guy the team looks to as its volume scorer crapped the bad in a key stretch and then tried to reel it back in after in OT. And he still deuced it at the line, 2/5 FT in OT (4/10 overall in the 4th and OT).

Remember, one-possession game. Missed 8 shots in the 4th and missed 6 FTs in the 4th and OT. There is no way to argue that Giannis was doing well in that stretch. He made some good plays in OT, and he was doing far better over the first 3 quarters, no doubt... but he still crapped it when it mattered here. And of course, a couple times it became clear that the Heat were exploiting Giannis' weak-sauce jumper. He had a nice spin on the left block in OT, and a nice putback on the offensive rebound. That was the extent of his bucket-making in OT, though obviously he exerted pressure drawing fouls, even if he wasn't hitting the FTs.

But again, at some point, he lost them this game. He was hardly alone in terms of responsibility, but you can look and clearly see him failing again and again in the 4th, and leaving the game on the table at the line. That's... not good. He's still a great player, but that was a dreadful performance in the 4th, and it ultimately cost them the game.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and falling down against incidental defense while bringing the ball over the timeline with a couple seconds left wasn't a good look either.

[rk2023]

**Sigh**.

I consider myself one who has a lot of admiration for Giannis and Jimmy Butler, so I'm semi-conflicted on the series. It's tough to see a 1-seed Bucks team which I picked to win the title bow out, but I couldn't be more amazed / thrilled to have seen the heroics and sheer will/relentlessness Butler put together to grab this series for the taking.

As for Giannis' overall season, I still think he's somewhere atop the NBA player hierarchy no doubt. While I think some of his tendencies were part of the reason Games 4 & 5 unfolded the way they did (eg. poor FT shooting, half-court indecisiveness, ability to stifle his finishing), I definitely don't think he looked himself this series as well as through most of the 'middle 75%' of the regular season with the back/knee injuries.

This somewhat less 'exerted value' makes it hard for me to leverage benefit of the doubt and consider Giannis the 'best player in the league' this year. I still feel he was in 2021 / 2022 (don't mind a 21 Curry or 22 Jokic case) and would regard either season as a top 15 single season peak without player duplicates included. Revising history with this recent MIL shortcoming in mind would be foolish.

[tsherkin]

This somewhat less 'exerted value' makes it hard for me to leverage benefit of the doubt and consider Giannis the 'best player in the league' this year. I still feel he was in 2021 / 2022 (don't mind a 21 Curry or 22 Giannis case) and would regard either season as a top 15 single season peak without player duplicates included. Revising history with this recent MIL shortcoming in mind would be foolish.

Regardless of how this game/series went, he's still an incredible player, no doubt. Still right up there among the handful of best players in the league. He has his limitations, but then, so does anyone. What he does without a jumper is remarkable. His physical tools are incredible and his skills are atypical for a guy his size. He has decision-making issues handling the ball and he mostly line drives himself at the rim, but his defensive skills are very strong. It's easy to forget he's a decade in but only 28. It's a little concerning watching his FT decline the past several seasons, though, especially if we're hoping he'll become more useful past about 8 feet as a scoring threat. Bonus, though, he still screens and moves and rebounds and what have you, so he always finds a way to be involved somehow.

[OhayoKD]

It would be one thing if Giannis was "forcing things"(taking the ball away from jrue/middleton) but Giannis went in transition or when jrue/mid couldn't find anything. The value of efficiency is relative. Giannis was bailing out a team that couldn't do anything without him(the "2" in 2/6 came from giannis passes) even though they were supposed to be built so that Giannis didn't have to bail them out(keeping in mind that bigs, even two-way ones, aren't typically asked to do the creation AND the scoring for their teams).

I'm gonna say that if you're shooting that poorly and it's a one-possession thing, then efficiency very much matters. I hear you with the other good things he was doing, so some of the criticism might be tempered. And for the first three quarters, and in OT, I'm with you. But 7 turnovers (3 of which came in the 4th and OT), 1/9 in the fourth, blowing his FTs... at some point, the guy the team looks to as its volume scorer crapped the bad in a key stretch and then tried to reel it back in after in OT. And he still deuced it at the line, 2/5 FT in OT (4/10 overall in the 4th and OT).

Remember, one-possession game. Missed 8 shots in the 4th and missed 6 FTs in the 4th and OT. There is no way to argue that Giannis was doing well in that stretch. He made some good plays in OT, and he was doing far better over the first 3 quarters, no doubt... but he still crapped it when it mattered here. And of course, a couple times it became clear that the Heat were exploiting Giannis' weak-sauce jumper. He had a nice spin on the left block in OT, and a nice putback on the offensive rebound. That was the extent of his bucket-making in OT, though obviously he exerted pressure drawing fouls, even if he wasn't hitting the FTs.

But again, at some point, he lost them this game. He was hardly alone in terms of responsibility, but you can look and clearly see him failing again and again in the 4th, and leaving the game on the table at the line. That's... not good. He's still a great player, but that was a dreadful performance in the 4th, and it ultimately cost them the game.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and falling down against incidental defense while bringing the ball over the timeline with a couple seconds left wasn't a good look either.

[/quote]I
I guess it comes down to how you weigh different contributions. I agree Giannis wasn't effecient in the 4th but i'm not sure that the bucks had better alternative and I think there's a place for "effeciency be damned, nothings working so im just gonna ram through the other team" which is how I felt things were shaping up before the heat just made contested 3's

On that note, I do wonder if there's a way to quantify the effect of a player making the opposing team take a bunch of fouls/foul out This is something 'I've wondered with Shaq too because even though he couldnt hit ft's that well, those free-throws themselves had an effect.

I'm not sure I get the criticism of that last play. Yeah Giannis falling isn't exactly "cool" looking, but he gets off an accurate pass to a teammate and it seems to me that was what he was going for. Maybe Giannis should have drove himself but if the guy makes the wide open read the game is tied.

[OhayoKD]

This somewhat less 'exerted value' makes it hard for me to leverage benefit of the doubt and consider Giannis the 'best player in the league' this year. I still feel he was in 2021 / 2022 (don't mind a 21 Curry or 22 Giannis case) and would regard either season as a top 15 single season peak without player duplicates included. Revising history with this recent MIL shortcoming in mind would be foolish.

Regardless of how this game/series went, he's still an incredible player, no doubt. Still right up there among the handful of best players in the league. He has his limitations, but then, so does anyone. What he does without a jumper is remarkable. His physical tools are incredible and his skills are atypical for a guy his size. He has decision-making issues handling the ball and he mostly line drives himself at the rim, but his defensive skills are very strong. It's easy to forget he's a decade in but only 28. It's a little concerning watching his FT decline the past several seasons, though, especially if we're hoping he'll become more useful past about 8 feet as a scoring threat. Bonus, though, he still screens and moves and rebounds and what have you, so he always finds a way to be involved somehow.

Honestly, i think the biggest critcism of Giannis to levy is his durability which was a factor in his loss in 2020 and this one, and could have easily cost him a championship in 2021.

Though this gets me back to thinking 2019 is really his best year from a strict "championship probabilty" perspective, even if he ultimately lost and his offense wasn't as theoretically reselient.

[rk2023]

This somewhat less 'exerted value' makes it hard for me to leverage benefit of the doubt and consider Giannis the 'best player in the league' this year. I still feel he was in 2021 / 2022 (don't mind a 21 Curry or 22 Giannis case) and would regard either season as a top 15 single season peak without player duplicates included. Revising history with this recent MIL shortcoming in mind would be foolish.

Regardless of how this game/series went, he's still an incredible player, no doubt. Still right up there among the handful of best players in the league. He has his limitations, but then, so does anyone. What he does without a jumper is remarkable. His physical tools are incredible and his skills are atypical for a guy his size. He has decision-making issues handling the ball and he mostly line drives himself at the rim, but his defensive skills are very strong. It's easy to forget he's a decade in but only 28. It's a little concerning watching his FT decline the past several seasons, though, especially if we're hoping he'll become more useful past about 8 feet as a scoring threat. Bonus, though, he still screens and moves and rebounds and what have you, so he always finds a way to be involved somehow.

Honestly, i think the biggest critcism of Giannis to levy is his durability which was a factor in his loss in 2020 and this one, and could have easily cost him a championship in 2021.

Though this gets me back to thinking 2019 is really his best year from a strict "championship probabilty" perspective, even if he ultimately lost and his offense wasn't as theoretically reselient.

Why not 2022 with this approach? I think him missing a little bit more worth of RS time then compared to 2019 is just a result of circumstance and the current era of maxing out or coming close to 82 Games Played being not as common. I personally like 2022 as a season more than 2019 because I see him as more polished an offensive player. Aside from the tank emptying in Game 7 of the Boston series, I thought he played phenomenal doing quite near all he could sans Middleton to take the Celtics the distance.

[tsherkin]

I guess it comes down to how you weigh different contributions. I agree Giannis wasn't effecient in the 4th but i'm not sure that the bucks had better alternative and I think there's a place for "effeciency be damned, nothings working so im just gonna ram through the other team" which is how I felt things were shaping up before the heat just made contested 3's

I agree with the bolded. You have to weigh the first 3 quarters with the 4th and OT. And he was better in OT than he was in the 4th, though only just. He did, however, suck some monstrous ass in the 4th, and that was a game-changing thing for them, so for me, it undercuts a lot. He literally just needed to not be incompetent at the line and this game was done. And then he could have done the same in OT and things would have been different as well. This is definitely a moment where having a reliable middie would have helped him.

I agree that the Bucks didn't have a better alternative. I don't mind that he WAS shooting. I'm critiquing his horrific shooting performance while trying to stave off a Miami comeback. I don't question his decision to try.

On that note, I do wonder if there's a way to quantify the effect of a player making the opposing team take a bunch of fouls/foul out This is something 'I've wondered with Shaq too because even though he couldnt hit ft's that well, those free-throws themselves had an effect.

It's something, for sure. It makes players approach the game a little more cautiously, it can chew through a roster with foul trouble, etc. There is a palpable impact, no doubt.

I'm not sure I get the criticism of that last play. Yeah Giannis falling isn't exactly "cool" looking, but he gets off an accurate pass to a teammate and it seems to me that was what he was going for. Maybe Giannis should have drove himself but if the guy makes the wide open read the game is tied.

I mean, my criticism is that he wasn't being defended THAT tightly, was well above the three-point line and fell down, which necessitated a bail-out pass. It seemed like he was just a bit out of control and nearly turned it over. The pass saved it, but the whole thing wasted time as well. I don't care if he looked cool or not, just that with the clock winding down, he nearly fell over his own feet.

Honestly, i think the biggest critcism of Giannis to levy is his durability which was a factor in his loss in 2020 and this one, and could have easily cost him a championship in 2021.

Though this gets me back to thinking 2019 is really his best year from a strict "championship probabilty" perspective, even if he ultimately lost and his offense wasn't as theoretically reselient.

Given his play style, his durability isn't surprising. His tail-off in durability correlates pretty directly with his rising scoring volume. We shall see what the future brings.

[70sFan]

What are you referring to when you say Giannis's defense was bad?

I didn't say it was bad, but it wasn't good either. He was insignificant on defense that game and actually had quite a few bad plays when he got blown by with ease. I wasn't impressed by his defense in these two comeback games at all.

Also where did Giannis "force" things? I remember two open jumpers when there wasn't much else available.

You can't be serious... Giannis played ISO ball all 4th quarter and the OT. He forced a missed contested hook attempt when Matthews was open, he took fadeaway jumper with 15 seconds left on the clock, he took pull up jumpshot with 11 seconds on the clock, he took a long hook shot over Butler at the edge of the paint in the overtime. Not to mention the horrible turnover against Zeller in the post.

No, Giannis didn't create good offense in the end of the game and I don't like he dominated the ball despite making so many mistakes.

[OhayoKD]

What are you referring to when you say Giannis's defense was bad?

I didn't say it was bad, but it wasn't good either. He was insignificant on defense that game and actually had quite a few bad plays when he got blown by with ease. I wasn't impressed by his defense in these two comeback games at all.

Also where did Giannis "force" things? I remember two open jumpers when there wasn't much else available.

You can't be serious... Giannis played ISO ball all 4th quarter and the OT. He forced a missed contested hook attempt when Matthews was open, he took fadeaway jumper with 15 seconds left on the clock, he took pull up jumpshot with 11 seconds on the clock, he took a long hook shot over Butler at the edge of the paint in the overtime. Not to mention the horrible turnover against Zeller in the post.

No, Giannis didn't create good offense in the end of the game and I don't like he dominated the ball despite making so many mistakes.

Specify the bad plays maybe? I can't track stuff well in real-time tbh

[70sFan]

What are you referring to when you say Giannis's defense was bad?

I didn't say it was bad, but it wasn't good either. He was insignificant on defense that game and actually had quite a few bad plays when he got blown by with ease. I wasn't impressed by his defense in these two comeback games at all.

Also where did Giannis "force" things? I remember two open jumpers when there wasn't much else available.

You can't be serious... Giannis played ISO ball all 4th quarter and the OT. He forced a missed contested hook attempt when Matthews was open, he took fadeaway jumper with 15 seconds left on the clock, he took pull up jumpshot with 11 seconds on the clock, he took a long hook shot over Butler at the edge of the paint in the overtime. Not to mention the horrible turnover against Zeller in the post.

No, Giannis didn't create good offense in the end of the game and I don't like he dominated the ball despite making so many mistakes.

Specify the bad plays maybe? I can't track stuff well in real-time tbh

I can send links to shot attempts now, as I don't have the time to rewatch the quarter again:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=31800&GameID=0042200105&PlayerID=203507&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Playoffs&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612749&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

You can rewatch all of his attempts here, start from the 4th quarter.

[cpower]

Giannis is overrated right now, his half court offense is still not elite and there are just simply too many holes in his game. When game slows down he is much less effective.

[OhayoKD]

This somewhat less 'exerted value' makes it hard for me to leverage benefit of the doubt and consider Giannis the 'best player in the league' this year. I still feel he was in 2021 / 2022 (don't mind a 21 Curry or 22 Giannis case) and would regard either season as a top 15 single season peak without player duplicates included. Revising history with this recent MIL shortcoming in mind would be foolish.

Regardless of how this game/series went, he's still an incredible player, no doubt. Still right up there among the handful of best players in the league. He has his limitations, but then, so does anyone. What he does without a jumper is remarkable. His physical tools are incredible and his skills are atypical for a guy his size. He has decision-making issues handling the ball and he mostly line drives himself at the rim, but his defensive skills are very strong. It's easy to forget he's a decade in but only 28. It's a little concerning watching his FT decline the past several seasons, though, especially if we're hoping he'll become more useful past about 8 feet as a scoring threat. Bonus, though, he still screens and moves and rebounds and what have you, so he always finds a way to be involved somehow.

His ft% has actually gone up from the 2020-2022 postseason. This series is a massive outlier for Giannis in terms of his woes from the charity stripe and I think that's because of the back.

Not saying this is true of everyone, but for those who are using this game as a negative indicator for healthy Giannis, if he hits those freethrows the last two games the same rate he was before his back injury(playoff or regular season), the bucks may well win game 4 and 5 and his individual effeciency goes up a quite bit.

[tsherkin]

His ft% has actually gone up from the 2020-2022 postseason. This series is a massive outlier for Giannis in terms of his woes from the charity stripe and I think that's because of the back.

Yes, but I was referencing the multi-year decline in his RS FT% compared to his first several years in the league. Should have been clearer.

Not saying this is true of everyone, but for those who are using this game as a negative indicator for healthy Giannis, if he hits those freethrows the last two games the same rate he was before his back injury(playoff or regular season), the bucks may well win game 4 and 5 and his individual effeciency goes up a quite bit.

It's a single game, to be sure. Only so much to be extrapolated from one game.

[Ian Scuffling]

I think he is the best. He was injured during this series and as usual, it's a team sport.

[TroubleS0me]

Watch on YouTube

[O_6]

After Giannis won the title with that legendary Finals performance, a lot of people were trying to figure out what kind of potential the trajectory of his career could go on. People were wondering if the upper-ceiling of his potential could even lead to a run that had us questioning if he was in the GOAT mix. "If Giannis wins 3 in a row and another MVP, he's up there with MJ/LeBron" was something we saw from a small minority of people on places like here and Reddit. Part of that was daydreaming wishful thinking type stuff, but most guys don't even have a chance for people to daydream about that kind of path for them.

Since July 2021, he's been kind of the default "best player" in the league choice for most people. MVP. Champion. Obviously a legend of the sport already and still in his 20s.

But it feels like we're going into a new chapter of the Giannis story next year. One where he is no longer considered the best player in the league and has pretty much made it very unlikely that he can ever sniff the Top 5 all-time mix.

Middleton (32), Holiday (33), Brook (35) are getting up there in age. Middleton has clearly regressed from his prime form and is a potential FA. Holiday is a PG who already struggles to shoot 40% in the playoffs and we know PGs have the potential to fall off a cliff after getting to that 33ish type age range. Brook is coming off an excellent year but he's also a 7 foot giant of a man entering his mid/late 30s, health is a concern by default on top of the fact that he's a FA.

I'm a Giannis fan, I do want to see him succeed. Great story, great player, and seemingly good person. But it really feels like Giannis and the Bucks organization has plateaued here. This particular window with this particular squad is pretty close to over imo, maybe another year if Middleton comes back but I don't see much more than that. It will be interesting to see how the Bucks re-tool around Giannis because it will slowly need to happen soon.

[TroubleS0me]

After Giannis won the title with that legendary Finals performance, a lot of people were trying to figure out what kind of potential the trajectory of his career could go on. People were wondering if the upper-ceiling of his potential could even lead to a run that had us questioning if he was in the GOAT mix. "If Giannis wins 3 in a row and another MVP, he's up there with MJ/LeBron" was something we saw from a small minority of people on places like here and Reddit. Part of that was daydreaming wishful thinking type stuff, but most guys don't even have a chance for people to daydream about that kind of path for them.

Since July 2021, he's been kind of the default "best player" in the league choice for most people. MVP. Champion. Obviously a legend of the sport already and still in his 20s.

But it feels like we're going into a new chapter of the Giannis story next year. One where he is no longer considered the best player in the league and has pretty much made it very unlikely that he can ever sniff the Top 5 all-time mix.

Middleton (32), Holiday (33), Brook (35) are getting up there in age. Middleton has clearly regressed from his prime form and is a potential FA. Holiday is a PG who already struggles to shoot 40% in the playoffs and we know PGs have the potential to fall off a cliff after getting to that 33ish type age range. Brook is coming off an excellent year but he's also a 7 foot giant of a man entering his mid/late 30s, health is a concern by default on top of the fact that he's a FA.

I'm a Giannis fan, I do want to see him succeed. Great story, great player, and seemingly good person. But it really feels like Giannis and the Bucks organization has plateaued here. This particular window with this particular squad is pretty close to over imo, maybe another year if Middleton comes back but I don't see much more than that. It will be interesting to see how the Bucks re-tool around Giannis because it will slowly need to happen soon.

Yup & just like that Bud got fired.