2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[Jadoogar]

OG has strong legs and able to guard PF's and even small C's. Really he guards 2-4. When you see defensive clips of Cissoko he's usally guarding at the top and may get beat by quick guards can recover quite decently; better than Scottie. I know Nurse was trying to have Scottie guard the POA but to me that wasn't ideal. Cissoko should be able to guard 1-4 but more often 1-3, thus I think he can start at SG.

At 19, he already shoots as well as Pascal from 3 and no clear hitches in the shooting motion. Anyways, I think he'll be able to improve 3pt% and FT's a la OG did.

OG shoots the 3 well, so pretty much move GT, FVV and then Pascal, before OG if needed.

PG Barnes
SG Cissoko
SF OG
PF Siakam
C Poeltl

.

I don't know why people are still thinking of scottie as a point guard. Yes it looks nice because he's a tall playmaker but he has not shown the ability to create of the dribble, be a floor general or defend the point of attack

Scottie works best when he gets the ball going downhill and as a secondary playmaker. On defense he's much better as a roamer than 1v1.

[billy_hoyle]

I would like to see Cissoko with his national team and GLeague experience scrimmage against the college players.

Absolutely.

It would be great for all the high ceiling guys, the foreign guys, and the guys in weaker conferences to play in the combine...

Unfortunately, agents want to preserve their clients perceived value, and don't want front offices making informed decisions which might negatively impact their pockets.

You see some players play and show out tho (Barnes and Jalen Williams as examples). Let's hope guys like Cissoko and Podz and Bilal etc come to play.

Why would we want those players to play in those scrimmages? We want teams to sleep on them

Also you might end up with Jerryd Bayless Summer League God performances that would be highly misleading.

This is actually true.

When we have the better scouts we want more mystery.

That's to our advantage.

From 'my own armchair GM' perspective, I'd like to see them all at the combine.

The combine and summer league is no guarantee, as you said, there have been some guys that looked really good and then disappointed. I still think, on average ,the guys that impress, are much more likely to translate. Purely anecdotal tho.

[God Squad]

Presti can speak for days. His end of year presser was a good listen. Some thoughts on the draft there.

Go on lol

[ATLTimekeeper]

Absolutely.

It would be great for all the high ceiling guys, the foreign guys, and the guys in weaker conferences to play in the combine...

Unfortunately, agents want to preserve their clients perceived value, and don't want front offices making informed decisions which might negatively impact their pockets.

You see some players play and show out tho (Barnes and Jalen Williams as examples). Let's hope guys like Cissoko and Podz and Bilal etc come to play.

Why would we want those players to play in those scrimmages? We want teams to sleep on them

Also you might end up with Jerryd Bayless Summer League God performances that would be highly misleading.

This is actually true.

When we have the better scouts we want more mystery.

That's to our advantage.

From 'my own armchair GM' perspective, I'd like to see them all at the combine.

The combine and summer league is no guarantee, as you said, there have been some guys that looked really good and then disappointed. I still think, on average ,the guys that impress, are much more likely to translate. Purely anecdotal tho.

I think anything that's small sample size like that is more likely to give you a false positive. "Showing out" in the tournament, dominating a high school match-up against another top prospect, killing it in the McDonald's game. It's only good for building hype. These scrimmages aren't worth anything because it's just guys showing what they can do with guys they've never played with. It's more like judging a chef based on the formula for Chopped. The constraints aren't going to apply to being a full-time NBA player, 82 games + playoffs.

If you watched Cam Thomas in one week last year he was a superstar, but if you watched him the rest of the year and in college, and the previous year, you'd know he's got a lot of terrible habits that are going to limit him to a bench role.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

I'm ready to not hear the Raptors in the first moments of the NBA lottery as they count backwards.

Imagine the reaction if you don't hear the Raptors named at pick #13.

Yes...I know...1% chance at #1. lol

Heck, when they didn't announce the Raptors at #8 and moved into the top 4, I was almost as happy as winning the championship.

i believe it was #7, when we didn't hear the Raptors get called, that was a guaranteed top 4.

[billy_hoyle]

Why would we want those players to play in those scrimmages? We want teams to sleep on them

Also you might end up with Jerryd Bayless Summer League God performances that would be highly misleading.

This is actually true.

When we have the better scouts we want more mystery.

That's to our advantage.

From 'my own armchair GM' perspective, I'd like to see them all at the combine.

The combine and summer league is no guarantee, as you said, there have been some guys that looked really good and then disappointed. I still think, on average ,the guys that impress, are much more likely to translate. Purely anecdotal tho.

I think anything that's small sample size like that is more likely to give you a false positive. "Showing out" in the tournament, dominating a high school match-up against another top prospect, killing it in the McDonald's game. It's only good for building hype. These scrimmages aren't worth anything because it's just guys showing what they can do with guys they've never played with. It's more like judging a chef based on the formula for Chopped. The constraints aren't going to apply to being a full-time NBA player, 82 games + playoffs.

If you watched Cam Thomas in one week last year he was a superstar, but if you watched him the rest of the year and in college, and the previous year, you'd know he's got a lot of terrible habits that are going to limit him to a bench role.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I know what you mean, and agree with you to an extent. But small samples do matter somewhat. They are what grow into large samples afterall

Cam Thomas proved he's an NBA sparkplug scorer. That's all. That's actually something though right? I'd like to have him on my team. I think he has shown an ability to score at an NBA level. I don't jump straight to superstar. That small sample did mean something.

We are trying to determine 'NBA starters or above' in our draft range. That should be the goal. If a guy comes into the combine like Barnes or Jalen Williams, that's a pretty good indicator to me.

I'd actually be interested in a deep dive here. Compare the combine stars of each draft class, determine the risers based on pre-combine mock drafts, and see if the results bear out any meaningful differences.

[dozo]

Read on Twitter

The pre-draft process for an agent ultimately comes down to one simple goal: get your player as high up on NBA teams’ mock drafts as possible. Let me explain. Most teams will put together a list of the top 60 draft prospects in their preferred order. Come draft night, some teams will stick strictly to their priority list and select the best player available, but usually teams will put several available players on their big board and the team will need to make a quick decision during the five minutes between first-round picks and two minutes between second-round picks.

I truly believe an agent needs to manage their player’s market, not create it. That is probably the biggest misconception of an agent’s role, in my opinion.

An interesting article about the pre-draft process from 2018.

[HumbleRen]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

[DG88]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

From what I've seen from his he's mainly a jump shooter and less of a slashing type of guard. His shot selection is poor and I've never really been enamoured with those types of players.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

OG has strong legs and able to guard PF's and even small C's. Really he guards 2-4. When you see defensive clips of Cissoko he's usally guarding at the top and may get beat by quick guards can recover quite decently; better than Scottie. I know Nurse was trying to have Scottie guard the POA but to me that wasn't ideal. Cissoko should be able to guard 1-4 but more often 1-3, thus I think he can start at SG.

At 19, he already shoots as well as Pascal from 3 and no clear hitches in the shooting motion. Anyways, I think he'll be able to improve 3pt% and FT's a la OG did.

OG shoots the 3 well, so pretty much move GT, FVV and then Pascal, before OG if needed.

PG Barnes
SG Cissoko
SF OG
PF Siakam
C Poeltl

.

I don't know why people are still thinking of scottie as a point guard. Yes it looks nice because he's a tall playmaker but he has not shown the ability to create of the dribble, be a floor general or defend the point of attack

Scottie works best when he gets the ball going downhill and as a secondary playmaker. On defense he's much better as a roamer than 1v1.

Wow I can't tell if you're talking about Scottie, Pascal or Sidy because you can fill in the blank with all 3 of them.

[Dalek]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

[Psubs]

OG has strong legs and able to guard PF's and even small C's. Really he guards 2-4. When you see defensive clips of Cissoko he's usally guarding at the top and may get beat by quick guards can recover quite decently; better than Scottie. I know Nurse was trying to have Scottie guard the POA but to me that wasn't ideal. Cissoko should be able to guard 1-4 but more often 1-3, thus I think he can start at SG.

At 19, he already shoots as well as Pascal from 3 and no clear hitches in the shooting motion. Anyways, I think he'll be able to improve 3pt% and FT's a la OG did.

OG shoots the 3 well, so pretty much move GT, FVV and then Pascal, before OG if needed.

PG Barnes
SG Cissoko
SF OG
PF Siakam
C Poeltl

.

I don't know why people are still thinking of scottie as a point guard. Yes it looks nice because he's a tall playmaker but he has not shown the ability to create of the dribble, be a floor general or defend the point of attack

Scottie works best when he gets the ball going downhill and as a secondary playmaker. On defense he's much better as a roamer than 1v1.

On the Raptors he's primary but shouldn't be. Need better creators.

I guess ideally he's a point forward like Chris Webber.

[Psubs]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

Black is super bouncy. I think he's a least a bigger Denis Smith Jr. If he can get an average 3, then a bigger Steve Francis.

[BoyzNTheHood]

Jimmy Butler going full MJ shows what guys who rise to the occasion can do. We’ve seen the other side of the spectrum with Pascal and it isn’t pretty. I want a DOG!

Meh, by 29 Jimmy had won 3 playoff rounds. By 26 Pascal had won, what, 6? No need to diminish a really good player just because Butler has been nothing but business after finally securing his bag. Pascal might not be the type to will a team to playoff upsets, but he's proven to be the type that can win 4 rounds. Let's get some load management for the guy. He played 500 more minutes than Butler this year while also missing a chunk of games with a groin strain.

We’re not going to sit here and argue that Pascal is better than Jimmy, because he’s not. If you want to read a box score and tell me that he has better advanced stats you can, but I’ll take my eye test.

And we definitely aren’t going to talk about 2019 like Kawhi didn’t hard carry Pascal. Without Kawhi is Pascal proven to be able to win 4 rounds? I thought so…. Everyone knows Pascal wanted no smoke against Philly. Without Kawhi’s shot we probably lose to them. Jimmy wanted that game, Pascal seemed fine playing 4th fiddle.

You can’t hold playing with bums like KAT and Wiggins against Jimmy. And you also can’t hold DRose’s health against him.

Both Jimmy and Pascal are guys who grew out of hardships, but it’s quite obvious to anyone who is paying attention that Jimmy is a better player on both ends of the court when it matters most. Guys with the heart of a lion win you games and series you aren’t supposed to win.

[Yallbecrazy]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

Black is super bouncy. I think he's a least a bigger Denis Smith Jr. If he can get an average 3, then a bigger Steve Francis.

Black has some outlier strengths, but also outlier weaknesses.

I don't like him a ton as he can't shoot and is very turnover prone. He could be a star if his shot drastically improves, but it looks semi broken and I don't see him even being a starter unless it improves quite a bit.

Also, his defense is really good, but not outlier great. His free throw rate is an outlier, and his rebounding is good, but not great.
I think he has star potential, but busts more often than I'm comfortable with at #13 and I don't think his skillset is a good fit.

[DreamTeam09]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

I didn't understand how that guy had no bounce when I was watching him play. He has legit game

[Ell Curry]

Same reason he took Poeltl when JV was 24. Both ended up being traded for championship pieces.

Yeah I'm not saying he won't go BPA. If he thinks Cissoko or Koulibaly or Whitehead or whoever is a star he'll take them, but I just don't see the MLE bringing us back a backup guard who can create, and we went for one in Brogdon last summer.

It's challenging because the draft precedes FA, but I would bet on trades that re-shape the bench. The starters themselves have to be better with the bench. Some of that is entirely on them.

But, they need to aim for a long-term starter with this pick. Guys that can play 28+ minutes a night carry more value.

The only real piece I see that could fetch a promising guard apart from trading (or trading down or up) #13 (or just selecting one there of course) is moving Achiuwa, since Barnes is probably a 4 anyways, so at least he can play the 12-15 minutes a night Siakam sits.

Poeltl 27 - Koloko 16 - Siakam 5
Siakam 28 - Barnes 20
Barnes 14 - OG 14 - #13 20
OG 20 - Trent 28
Van Vleet 33 - PG 15

So I guess this would look something like say Achiuwa for Davion Mitchell or a similar backup PG, and we draft a forward who can shoot. Otto Porter Jr plays when healthy and hopefully can eat up minutes while the rookie gets to speed with the NBA, and we sign a random perimeter shooter with the MLE like Seth Curry for depth.

Personally, I want to see Barnes at the 4 way the entire time Siakam isn't there. I think he's basically a pure 4 in the modern NBA. Similar steal/block numbers as Lebron, Tatum and Draymond, and he's an average shooter at best. That's a 4 now. If we're not going to move Siakam, I could see a 2nd unit lineup that has him at the 4 being our best option to have a good bench next year, with 3 shooters (Trent, a new backup PG and a new 3/OPJ until the pick is ready), Barnes at the 4 and Koloko at the 5.

[Psubs]

Apparently Keyonte George only has 2 dunks this season.

Yeah, I'm completely out on him lol.

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

I didn't understand how that guy had no bounce when I was watching him play. He has legit game

Like really who will have the better NBA career, Keyonte George or Terquavion Smith? I think George's attitude is a little delusional, whereas Terquavion tested the draft process last year and went back to school, humble.

Keyonte might try some fancy passes but Terq is the one with the A/T close to 2. Terq is also shooting 3's at NBA distance. I can see him as a decent energy combo guard off the bench.

Dare I even say that he'll be the best Smith of this draft?

Watch on YouTube

[BoyzNTheHood]

The one good thing about Keyonte is his 36 FTr so he is getting to the line and playing through contact. Look at Hood-Schifino with 4 dunks and 18.9 FTR - like what is wrong with his body?

Honestly, it is a weird year. Not a lot of guys who have plus athleticism from the guard position. Even if they are pretty good on-ball, not a lot of quick burst. These guards are more oriented to dance with the ball or go to a floater when they get into the paint. It is like everyone wants to avoid contact.

Wallace had 11 dunks but he only had a 22 FTR which is considered low for a lead guard. Bufkin is similar 24 FTR and 12 dunks. He is a great finisher at the rim.

Anthony Black had 24 dunks and a 57.8 FTR which is abnormally high. He isn't even a quick-burst athlete, so it is kind of weirdly high to see him get to the line like he does (maybe just a condition of playing under Muss at Arkansas).

I didn't understand how that guy had no bounce when I was watching him play. He has legit game

Like really who will have the better NBA career, Keyonte George or Terquavion Smith? I think George's attitude is a little delusional, whereas Terquavion tested the draft process last year and went back to school, humble.

I think it depends on their situation. If one is placed in a 6th man role while the other is forced into being a starter I could see it being bad. I’m willing to bet George is forced as a starter and could be inefficient until he figures something out like Malik Monk did. While Terq seems like he could be willing to be a 6th man and could have a significant impact as such.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Watch on YouTube