Where would peak Isiah (Zeke) Thomas rank today?

[1993Playoffs]

Interested to see where you guys would rank him today compared to the top players of today

[penbeast0]

Do you want us to rank Isiah as he actually was if playing today (ie, little or no 3 point shot and inefficient shooter), or a projected Isiah if he grew up in today's environment?

[1993Playoffs]

Do you want us to rank Isiah as he actually was if playing today (ie, little or no 3 point shot and inefficient shooter), or a projected Isiah if he grew up in today's environment?

As he was playing but you can project him forward.

It’s interesting because statistically at least he peaked pretty early and by the time guys usually peak (age 27-30 ) his stats were in decline (obviously he had a better team as well).

[tsherkin]

Isiah is an interesting case. He wasn't a high-end scorer, but he had some big moments in the playoffs. He wasn't generally a high-impact offensive player AFTER he stopped being a volume playmaker, but he did exert leadership influence on his team in a positive fashion. He was also a small guard who attacked well.

I think he'd look better today than he did then, but still wouldn't be an ultra-elite scorer. Be interesting to see how well he could develop his three, I'm sure he'd get it to a reasonable level. He'd be good, but not first tier. Small guard, can't count on him being an elite-tier shooter, but a good ball handler and savvy playmaker. He'd benefit from PnR play. He'd benefit from increased spacing and the RA. I don't think he'd be a top 10 player, but I think he'd be top 20 without a doubt. I can see a reasonable argument for him anywhere from like 13-25 depending on the details.

[SilentA]

Maybe biased, because I like the Bad Boys Pistons story and wish I was alive to watch the 80s NBA. But I'll just reply for fun anyway. This is assuming his old skillset, but given a summer to prepare and a half a season to adapt.

IMO he would be one of the best PGs. With modern spacing and coaching I think he would at least operate at De'Aaron Fox efficiency in the RS (both already around 75% at the line, and Zeke peaked at almost 82%, and I think Zeke's 3 point shooting could realistically reach 33%+), then boost it in the playoffs. He'd have a slower first step/drive but still be fast and have elite playmaking on offense. He was still an incredible finisher, which he already demonstrated in a packed paint in the 80s. His defense was solid and aggressive for his height.

When watching old games, what bothered me the most about Zeke was just throwing up one too many random long jumpers with a defender in his face. Not even proper catch and shoots. I see this as something at least partially fixable for someone with his basketball IQ and teamplay in a modern coaching system within a few months, where he'll have more opportunities to drive into a more open paint and more screening plays.

And this is not discussing intangibles.

I'd bet he'd have a case for all NBA second team guard spot on a good team, and very likely third. Could barely squeeze into the top 10, but more likely to fall outside of it. Depends on the team and people's criteria etc.

[tsherkin]

IMO he would be one of the best PGs. With modern spacing and coaching I think he would at least operate at De'Aaron Fox efficiency in the RS (both already around 75% at the line and I think Zeke's 3 point shooting could realistically reach 32-33%), then boost it in the playoffs. He'd have a slower first step/drive but still be fast and have elite playmaking on offense. He was still an incredible finisher, which he already demonstrated in a packed paint in the 80s. His defense was solid and aggressive for his height.

Zeke was a 52-55% TS guy in his own career, a career 96 TS+ guy who made 100 or better once (103 in 1986). He averaged about -2.27% rTS.

Assuming FG% in the RA improves, he makes it to something like 33% from 3, maybe a rise in FTr and all that, I could see him in that 55-56% TS range today without too much trouble.

In his earliest days, he was a 20/10 type guy. Inefficient, but still driving the offense with his playmaking. That'd likely be similar today. The problem with that is he has a lot of competition in that non-elite tier.

Right off the bat...

Tatum, Luka, Jokic, Steph, Lebron, AD, Butler, Giannis, Embiid, Harden, KD, Dame

That's 12 guys right there I don't think he has much chance to be ranked ahead of at the moment.

So he ends up hanging around in a tier with these guys, depending on how you treat them individually and exactly how well Thomas does in the modern environment.

PG, Kawhi, (<-- these two here mainly because they're never healthy) KAT, Trae, Mitchell, Haliburton, Ja, Ant, Fox, Markkanen.

[kendogg]

As great as he is I don't think he makes the top 10 cut. Top 20 yeah. He'd be one of the best floor generals in the league for sure, maybe the best since Paul is past prime and most of the rest of the candidates are scoring focused so they don't look to get other guys going as much.

[pipfan]

Bulls' fan here, who hated him-but I always felt like he was the most overrated player of the 80's. Fun to cheer against him and his gang of thugs

out of top 10, but a big star due to social media (he'd be an Irving type)

[1993Playoffs]

IMO he would be one of the best PGs. With modern spacing and coaching I think he would at least operate at De'Aaron Fox efficiency in the RS (both already around 75% at the line and I think Zeke's 3 point shooting could realistically reach 32-33%), then boost it in the playoffs. He'd have a slower first step/drive but still be fast and have elite playmaking on offense. He was still an incredible finisher, which he already demonstrated in a packed paint in the 80s. His defense was solid and aggressive for his height.

Zeke was a 52-55% TS guy in his own career, a career 96 TS+ guy who made 100 or better once (103 in 1986). He averaged about -2.27% rTS.

Assuming FG% in the RA improves, he makes it to something like 33% from 3, maybe a rise in FTr and all that, I could see him in that 55-56% TS range today without too much trouble.

In his earliest days, he was a 20/10 type guy. Inefficient, but still driving the offense with his playmaking. That'd likely be similar today. The problem with that is he has a lot of competition in that non-elite tier.

Right off the bat...

Tatum, Luka, Jokic, Steph, Lebron, AD, Butler, Giannis, Embiid, Harden, KD, Dame

That's 12 guys right there I don't think he has much chance to be ranked ahead of at the moment.

So he ends up hanging around in a tier with these guys, depending on how you treat them individually and exactly how well Thomas does in the modern environment.

PG, Kawhi, (<-- these two here mainly because they're never healthy) KAT, Trae, Mitchell, Haliburton, Ja, Ant, Fox, Markkanen.

Are we sure older Dame is for sure better? His numbers look nice but he missed some games and he’s not the playmaker Zeke was. He didn’t even make the play in

[tsherkin]

Are we sure older Dame is for sure better? His numbers look nice but he missed some games and he’s not the playmaker Zeke was. He didn’t even make the play in

I am comfortable calling him a better player, yes. I think Thomas is a notably superior playmaker, but not enough to overcome the massive chasm in scoring ability, and in particular gravity as a result of his shooting prowess. Even with his defensive issues, he's a significant monster on O to a degree which Thomas never was.

[SilentA]

IMO he would be one of the best PGs. With modern spacing and coaching I think he would at least operate at De'Aaron Fox efficiency in the RS (both already around 75% at the line and I think Zeke's 3 point shooting could realistically reach 32-33%), then boost it in the playoffs. He'd have a slower first step/drive but still be fast and have elite playmaking on offense. He was still an incredible finisher, which he already demonstrated in a packed paint in the 80s. His defense was solid and aggressive for his height.

Zeke was a 52-55% TS guy in his own career, a career 96 TS+ guy who made 100 or better once (103 in 1986). He averaged about -2.27% rTS.

Assuming FG% in the RA improves, he makes it to something like 33% from 3, maybe a rise in FTr and all that, I could see him in that 55-56% TS range today without too much trouble.

In his earliest days, he was a 20/10 type guy. Inefficient, but still driving the offense with his playmaking. That'd likely be similar today. The problem with that is he has a lot of competition in that non-elite tier.

Right off the bat...

Tatum, Luka, Jokic, Steph, Lebron, AD, Butler, Giannis, Embiid, Harden, KD, Dame

That's 12 guys right there I don't think he has much chance to be ranked ahead of at the moment.

So he ends up hanging around in a tier with these guys, depending on how you treat them individually and exactly how well Thomas does in the modern environment.

PG, Kawhi, (<-- these two here mainly because they're never healthy) KAT, Trae, Mitchell, Haliburton, Ja, Ant, Fox, Markkanen.

At his historical peak but in the modern era? I could put him up in the same tier with current aged Harden and 38 year old Lebron tbh, mayyyybe even on par Luka and AD depending on how I feel about certain things like perimeter defense/ability to play with other stars/availability.

Zeke played inefficient back then but in the current game I think he'd move up to average efficiency, maybe around 58%-59% TS. People can just agree to disagree with me on that hypothetical, and it's probably an unpopular opinion, but that's what I see. I understand the importance of "relative to league average" for these hypotheticals, and I don't have tracking data, but in Zeke's case I think I've watched enough footage to identify most of his inefficiency as coming very specifically from firing random long 2s/sometimes 3s with a defender in front of him out of the blue. And these are in teams where he was often the first offensive option in a big/wing dominated era with a packed paint. I just don't think this happens in a modern offense with modern coaching, offensive schemes, guard-friendly rules, and spacing. Outside of that, his scoring skillset was either very good (finishing, getting to line) to very average (general shooting ability), and that's what I think would transfer.

As for his volume, his ~20 PPG was pretty much league leading for PGs in the 80s. He lacks the iso skillset or shooting touch to ever hit Dame, Steph or Luka PPG numbers in his lifetime, for sure, but I see no reason he can't hit between 24-27PPG in the modern era.

Also, "stepping up when it counts" is kind of a meme sometimes, but he does seem to have another gear in the playoffs or in high stake situations marked by a few career performances and resilient playoff stats. I think this adds to his value and puts him a cut above a lot of the "borderline" elite. It's also why I hold Jimmy Butler in high regard.

Per my most optimistic interpretation, peak Zeke gets ~27PPG on ~59% TS, excellent playmaking, being a very pesky defender for his size, and having another gear in the playoffs. I think this breaks him into the back end of top 10. Very debatable and a lot of speculation, but IMO not entirely unreasonable. That said, I'm aware this is an optimistic interpretation, hence "Could barely squeeze into the top 10, but more likely to fall outside of it". IMO he's overrated by the accolades crowd, but underrated by the stats crowd, making him a divisive player overall.

[Colbinii]

He could borderline Top 10 as a high-end outcome and a low-end outcome could be solid-starter. Big range as time travel isn't easy to predict.

[tsherkin]

At his historical peak but in the modern era? I could put him up in the same tier with current aged Harden and 38 year old Lebron tbh, mayyyybe even on par Luka and AD depending on how I feel about certain things like perimeter defense/ability to play with other stars/availability.

I would take Harden over Zeke, no problem. Even compared to Old Harden, I don't think Zeke matches up as a scorer.

Zeke played inefficient back then but in the current game I think he'd move up to average efficiency, maybe around 58%-59% TS.

You understand that's not efficient, right? That's like "oh, you're kind of competent. Ish" level scoring, and it gets worse as your volume rises. League average is over 58%. If you're under 60%, you're not a good volume option today, and Thomas didn't have the tools for that.

As for his volume, his ~20 PPG was pretty much league leading for PGs in the 80s.

And? Scoring a lot on low efficiency isn't good. It's sometimes what you need to do on bad teams, which isn't the same thing.

He lacks the iso skillset or shooting touch to ever hit Dame, Steph or Luka PPG numbers in his lifetime, for sure, but I see no reason he can't hit between 24-27PPG in the modern era.

I can't imagine him scoring 27 ppg today. The league was faster in his time, and he wasn't ever a shooter on the level we'd expect to adjust and become that in today's league.

[penbeast0]

With his old skillset (small, poor shot selection, under .300 from 3, playmaking 1), I don't think he'd get a real chance in the NBA today. Probably not even a starting shot; those guys just aren't given a break anymore. With good coaching and adjusting to the modern game, he would be an average to below average starting point who was capable of great explosions and probably rated higher than that. Growing up in the 3 point era and having worked on that skill since childhood, I think he'd be a highly rated guard though since efficiency is much more focused on today, probably not in a tier with the top guys.

[kendogg]

I don't think people here understand how much easier it is to score today than in the 80's. Not only would Zeke have far more space to operate, he could get away with blatant carries, 5 steps, much easier passing lanes, etc. Stats are inflated at LEAST 50% in this era over any other era.

Zeke was not a bad shooter. That's like saying 2000 Iverson was a bad shooter. Or Kobe was a bad shooter. No, he was just always double or triple teamed. Everyone's efficiency drops when the defense is keyed in on you. But that's impossible in today's era of 5 out.

[tsherkin]

I don't think people here understand how much easier it is to score today than in the 80's. Not only would Zeke have far more space to operate, he could get away with blatant carries, 5 steps, much easier passing lanes, etc. Stats are inflated at LEAST 50% in this era over any other era.

Zeke was not a bad shooter. That's like saying 2000 Iverson was a bad shooter. Or Kobe was a bad shooter. No, he was just always double or triple teamed. Everyone's efficiency drops when the defense is keyed in on you. But that's impossible in today's era of 5 out.

No, that's wrong. He was a small guy who had trouble getting good looks over his defenders, so he was always at a disadvantage. Like Iverson. And he was a POA guy, so he has issues because he didn't play off-ball alot. And he wasn't an elite shooter on top of that, which we can tell well enough from his FT%.

And no, 50% is a gross exaggeration of stat inflation, particularly relative to the 80s. And that aside, you can see some attention to improvement in his ability due to era by adding 6-8% TS% as a generous guess at how he'd look today, so it's not like it hasn't been accounted for.

[1993Playoffs]

With his old skillset (small, poor shot selection, under .300 from 3, playmaking 1), I don't think he'd get a real chance in the NBA today. Probably not even a starting shot; those guys just aren't given a break anymore. With good coaching and adjusting to the modern game, he would be an average to below average starting point who was capable of great explosions and probably rated higher than that. Growing up in the 3 point era and having worked on that skill since childhood, I think he'd be a highly rated guard though since efficiency is much more focused on today, probably not in a tier with the top guys.

Damn not even a starting shot? Just by his offense alone I think he’s have a place in the league (I’m talking about his old skill set)

Maybe I need to watch some more film

[penbeast0]

Today, the first thing they look at is a player's shooting ability. A career under .300 3pt % in an era when the 3 point shot wasn't guarded as aggressively isn't good. Again, that's why I've always felt it unreasonable to just time machine players. For example, Rick Barry, one of the best distance shooters of his era, also shot under 30% from 3 in the ABA. I am fairly sure that he, and possibly Isiah, would be closer to 40% than 30% from that distance today. It was a different era.

[tsherkin]

Today, the first thing they look at is a player's shooting ability. A career under .300 3pt % in an era when the 3 point shot wasn't guarded as aggressively isn't good. Again, that's why I've always felt it unreasonable to just time machine players. For example, Rick Barry, one of the best distance shooters of his era, also shot under 30% from 3 in the ABA. I am fairly sure that he, and possibly Isiah, would be closer to 40% than 30% from that distance today. It was a different era.

Isiah's specific 3P% is likely unrepresentative because the volume was so small that it almost assuredly comprised of heaves. His FT% is a more telling marker of his shooting prowess, as well as his fairly unremarkable FG%.

[SilentA]

At his historical peak but in the modern era? I could put him up in the same tier with current aged Harden and 38 year old Lebron tbh, mayyyybe even on par Luka and AD depending on how I feel about certain things like perimeter defense/ability to play with other stars/availability.

I would take Harden over Zeke, no problem. Even compared to Old Harden, I don't think Zeke matches up as a scorer.

Zeke played inefficient back then but in the current game I think he'd move up to average efficiency, maybe around 58%-59% TS.

You understand that's not efficient, right? That's like "oh, you're kind of competent. Ish" level scoring, and it gets worse as your volume rises. League average is over 58%. If you're under 60%, you're not a good volume option today, and Thomas didn't have the tools for that.

As for his volume, his ~20 PPG was pretty much league leading for PGs in the 80s.

And? Scoring a lot on low efficiency isn't good. It's sometimes what you need to do on bad teams, which isn't the same thing.

He lacks the iso skillset or shooting touch to ever hit Dame, Steph or Luka PPG numbers in his lifetime, for sure, but I see no reason he can't hit between 24-27PPG in the modern era.

I can't imagine him scoring 27 ppg today. The league was faster in his time, and he wasn't ever a shooter on the level we'd expect to adjust and become that in today's league.

Uhh... I mean if you wanna pivot and argue against "Zeke should be a primary volume scoring option today!" and pretend like that was what I was arguing for, then go for it. Not really an argument anyone made but I can see how that makes things convenient.

I guess I could just clarify it further so nobody else dishonestly frames my post (this point on is addressed at general topic readers).

I disagreed earlier that Zeke would be at the suggested 20 PPG/~55% (below league avg) TS when adjusted for the modern era, because the modern era would make scoring a lot easier for him, both in terms of volume and efficiency. It's unrealistic to imagine that a PG with his skillset would stay at around the same PPG or league relative TS% as he did back then. Spacing and more complex offensive schemes open slashing lanes for people with great handles, decent speed and crafty finishing ability. The current game would disproportionately benefit a player like him.

As for shooting, there's a difference between being a fundamentally bad shooter for a season (i.e. Westbrook bricking so many open shots and ~65% FT%) vs Zeke, whose actual shooting at his best (topic asked about peak) is on par with the current league average, or slightly better than its time for a PG (e.g. 80%+ FT% at his best). Zeke's subpar FG% stats primarily stem from shot selection, which is linked to stuff I mentioned earlier.

Tbh, Zeke volume scoring ~27 PPG would probably be another situation of him being on a team where he is forced to lead the offense, like Trae or Morant with better defense and/or passing. Which isn't terrible, but it's not where I think he has the best chance of sneaking into top 10. His best shot is probably on a playoff team as part of a one-two punch offense as a primary ballhandler, but secondary scorer, with floor spacing role players to pass to.