Re: Trade Talk (Part Twelve): 2023 Playoff Push Edition

[shangrila]

NBA executives see Heat, Nets, Trail Blazers, Celtics, Knicks and Pacers as potential destinations for Karl-Anthony Towns:

I thought I’d try to use this anonymous, clickbait article for productively, to show how few teams can make a realistic offer for KAT.

1. Stars have value because they consolidate talent into one player. You can only put five players on a basketball court at once, so consolidating a 25 PPG scorer into one guy is usually more valuable than getting three 15 PPG scorers. This is especially true for MIN, who is unlikely to get stars in free agency. If MIN trades away a star, they need a star back.

2. Among these teams, I don’t see a legit package in a straight up deal. For most, the bulk of the value would have to come from a bunch of picks. Which picks have team control, I don’t see Connolly making the team worse in a win-later move. I also think that KAT isn’t a legit Batman, but on the right team, he could be one of the best Robins in NBA history. For us, that means only two teams have a headliner that would make a Towns trade appealing

BOS could pair KAT with Tatum, and base a deal on Jaylen Brown. There are several rumors that Brown may not want to stay in Boston, but nothing has been substantiated. MIN would need to know Brown wanted to be here, and would sign an extension. To me, KAT doesn’t seem like a BOS type of player, but they could probably surround him with enough defense to make him a big help for Tatum.

BRK could send out Bridges, and pair KAT with “whatever star(s) they can lure in free agency.” I haven’t heard that Towns is particularly connected with other stars (except Paul George), but any offensive-minded star could see how Towns would improve their own numbers, and make the game easier for them. Maybe it’s easier to attract a free agent star if you already have one. But if I was BRK, I’d hang onto Bridges. Maybe you can clear enough cap space to attract two stars (and not waste assets by making a trade), and Bridges can compliment any new star.

The other teams? Meh. A bunch of picks from a contender? Ick. Five minor assets? Nah. It’s better to run the experiment fully, with practices and new additions like Conley to see what this team can look like,

Good stuff as usual shrink...

...but can we stop using the Batman/Robin analogy?

It's never made sense. This isn't a 2x2 league and they aren't super heroes (or billionaire vigilantes). Also, Batman and Robin AREN'T REAL PEOPLE. We have plenty of examples of past NBA players to draw from, we don't need to compare players to a master detective and an acrobat.

Such a played out and useless analogy (especially since Robin hasn't even been in the newer movies!).

The Batman/Robin stuff may be played out but I do think we're headed down a Lillard-Aldridge path. I'll believe Towns is willing to relinquish "his" team when I see it.

[urinesane]

I thought I’d try to use this anonymous, clickbait article for productively, to show how few teams can make a realistic offer for KAT.

1. Stars have value because they consolidate talent into one player. You can only put five players on a basketball court at once, so consolidating a 25 PPG scorer into one guy is usually more valuable than getting three 15 PPG scorers. This is especially true for MIN, who is unlikely to get stars in free agency. If MIN trades away a star, they need a star back.

2. Among these teams, I don’t see a legit package in a straight up deal. For most, the bulk of the value would have to come from a bunch of picks. Which picks have team control, I don’t see Connolly making the team worse in a win-later move. I also think that KAT isn’t a legit Batman, but on the right team, he could be one of the best Robins in NBA history. For us, that means only two teams have a headliner that would make a Towns trade appealing

BOS could pair KAT with Tatum, and base a deal on Jaylen Brown. There are several rumors that Brown may not want to stay in Boston, but nothing has been substantiated. MIN would need to know Brown wanted to be here, and would sign an extension. To me, KAT doesn’t seem like a BOS type of player, but they could probably surround him with enough defense to make him a big help for Tatum.

BRK could send out Bridges, and pair KAT with “whatever star(s) they can lure in free agency.” I haven’t heard that Towns is particularly connected with other stars (except Paul George), but any offensive-minded star could see how Towns would improve their own numbers, and make the game easier for them. Maybe it’s easier to attract a free agent star if you already have one. But if I was BRK, I’d hang onto Bridges. Maybe you can clear enough cap space to attract two stars (and not waste assets by making a trade), and Bridges can compliment any new star.

The other teams? Meh. A bunch of picks from a contender? Ick. Five minor assets? Nah. It’s better to run the experiment fully, with practices and new additions like Conley to see what this team can look like,

Good stuff as usual shrink...

...but can we stop using the Batman/Robin analogy?

It's never made sense. This isn't a 2x2 league and they aren't super heroes (or billionaire vigilantes). Also, Batman and Robin AREN'T REAL PEOPLE. We have plenty of examples of past NBA players to draw from, we don't need to compare players to a master detective and an acrobat.

Such a played out and useless analogy (especially since Robin hasn't even been in the newer movies!).

The Batman/Robin stuff may be played out but I do think we're headed down a Lillard-Aldridge path. I'll believe Towns is willing to relinquish "his" team when I see it.

It's a TEAM. It's the TEAM'S team. Everyone can LEAD by example.

Dynamic duos are boring, it's a 5 man game.

I'll take Doom Patrol.

[shangrila]

Good stuff as usual shrink...

...but can we stop using the Batman/Robin analogy?

It's never made sense. This isn't a 2x2 league and they aren't super heroes (or billionaire vigilantes). Also, Batman and Robin AREN'T REAL PEOPLE. We have plenty of examples of past NBA players to draw from, we don't need to compare players to a master detective and an acrobat.

Such a played out and useless analogy (especially since Robin hasn't even been in the newer movies!).

The Batman/Robin stuff may be played out but I do think we're headed down a Lillard-Aldridge path. I'll believe Towns is willing to relinquish "his" team when I see it.

It's a TEAM. It's the TEAM'S team. Everyone can LEAD by example.

Dynamic duos are boring, it's a 5 man game.

I'll take Doom Patrol.

That's a neat idea but we're talking about highly egotistical individuals here. KAT, for example, was still being introduced last during pre-game stuff this year. That stuff matters to guys.

I'm not saying anything will happen for sure but the assumption that KAT is going to take getting knocked a peg down the totem pole in stride is fairly presumptuous. As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

[shrink]

That's a neat idea but we're talking about highly egotistical individuals here. KAT, for example, was still being introduced last during pre-game stuff this year. That stuff matters to guys.

I'm not saying anything will happen for sure but the assumption that KAT is going to take getting knocked a peg down the totem pole in stride is fairly presumptuous. As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

We’ve already seen it. Towns was an All NBA center, and literally switched positions to add Gobert to the team. He was the main guy feeding him at the start of the season.

Can you name any other All NBA player who would give up their position to add talent for his team?

Ant was raving about the pizza party Towns hosted at his home after Game 4, all while KAT is hearing from everyone right now how this is Ant’s team. I have no worries whatsoever about Towns ego.

[shrink]

The premise of Ben Simmons "showing Ant how to leverage himself out of a team" is super silly, I really don't understand why that's a talking point you've held onto for this long. Anthony Edwards is a grown man and Ben Simmons isn't the Serpent in the Garden.

I'm not even advocating for the trade (I'd only consider it if ownership was willing to dip into the Luxury-Tax), I honestly think Minnesota should just run it back. I just don't think Ben Simmons is this mysterious being that can influence Anthony Edwards into weaseling his way out of Minnesota; that whole concept is outlandish, especially given that Minnesota has plenty of other competent veterans

Okay, which part is so outlandish:

1. Anthony Edwards listens to his teammates. I think that’s easily defended. He gives credit to Rubio for mentoring him, he has been lauded by SloMo and Austin Rivers that his willingness to listen is a fundamental difference from other young players that will lead to greatness. He is young and impressionable.

2. Management recognizes this, and emphasizes putting high character guys around Ant. Connolly is always talking about getting high character guys, even mentioning it in yesterday’s exit interviews. We have seen him put this in action too, getting rid of questionable “team leaders” like PatBev (love the guy, but his time has passed), and DLo, and brought in guys like Mike Conley. You wouldn’t argue that Beverley and DLo didn’t influenced Ant while they were here, right?

3. Ben Simmons is not a high character guy - he is not team first. Certainly being willing/unable to not honor the contract he signed is bad enough, demanding a trade to another team, but he refused to even return texts from his PHI teammates who tried to encourage him to play.

If Ant demands a trade, that would be a franchise-killer for Minnesota. Does the contributions of bringing in Ben Simmons worth any risk at all?

[shangrila]

That's a neat idea but we're talking about highly egotistical individuals here. KAT, for example, was still being introduced last during pre-game stuff this year. That stuff matters to guys.

I'm not saying anything will happen for sure but the assumption that KAT is going to take getting knocked a peg down the totem pole in stride is fairly presumptuous. As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

We’ve already seen it. Towns was an All NBA center, and literally switched positions to add Gobert to the team. He was the main guy feeding him at the start of the season.

Can you name any other All NBA player who would give up their position to add talent for his team?

Ant was raving about the pizza party at Towns house after Game 4, while KAT is hearing from everyone right now how this is Ant’s team. I have no worries whatsoever about Towns ego.

That's not the same thing and you know it.

[life_saver]

Ego is probably the last thing I am worried about KAT...that's least of my concerns with KAT. Even when Jimmy came here, KAT sacrificed his shot attempts and took even less shots than Wiggins that season. My concerns with KAT are his inconsistent offensive production in playoffs...some of it is on Finch on not able to utilize KAT fully but lot of it is also on KAT who needs to figure out these things...he needs to make decisions quickly on offense.

[minimus]

Ego and Karl? Yeah, I wish he had more ego

[shrink]

I remember in 2017-18, the Jimmy year, KAT was having one of the best seasons of his career. He was shooting 42% 3P, 56% FG, for a top 10 eFG% and TS%. Overall, he was #2 in the NBA in Win Shares. The media was giving Jimmy Butler all the credit (most still do), but Towns was having a far better season than Jimmy. The thing that struck me was .. Towns was third on the team in FG’s, behind Jimmy and Wiggins! The coaching staff was begging Towns to shoot more - something that we hear every season - but even when KAT wasn’t getting the credit he deserved, he still didn’t get egotistical and shoot more.

I think Towns lack of ego is rare among players of his caliber. I also think it’s an important factor when we talk about Towns trades. If we traded for, say, Trae Young, do you think Young would be willing to defer shots and play second banana as Anthony Edwards ascends and we become Ant’s team?

[shrink]

I’m not sure which thread to post this in, but I saw a couple nuggets in the new CBA that I wanted to pass along.

1. The MLE can now be used as a TPE. This is a big deal for MIN, who isn’t an attractive destination to free agents, so we might be able to do better using it in trades. The non-taxpayer MLE next year will be $12.2 mil.

I also have been meaning to mention to those that don’t know that CBA rules have teams determine if they are over the lux at the END of the season. I agree that MIN doesn’t want to be over the lux next year and start the repeater tax for a team that’s about to get very expensive. However, they could make a move that puts them a little over the lux this summer, and plan to make further moves during the season to slip back under.

2. There are exceptions now for 2nd round picks, to let teams lock them up for 3-4 years without biting into cap space or other exceptions to do it. For example, last year we signed SloMo to a number just under the MLE, so we had enough of the MLE left over to give Josh Minott his Hinkie Special. This is a nice rule for MIN, since we have a GM that has been a good evaluator of young talent in the 2nd round, and because team control is a big deal for the franchise.

3. The new CBA lifts the rules on how many Designated Veterans a team can have. In the previous CBA, you could only have two, and one had to be homegrown. You may recall that this limited the teams where Ben Simmons could be traded. I’ve wondered about this rule for a while for MIN, because KAT and Gobert are designated veteran exceptions, and I wondered what happened if Ant becomes one? Now there are no worries.

[urinesane]

That's a neat idea but we're talking about highly egotistical individuals here. KAT, for example, was still being introduced last during pre-game stuff this year. That stuff matters to guys.

I'm not saying anything will happen for sure but the assumption that KAT is going to take getting knocked a peg down the totem pole in stride is fairly presumptuous. As I said, I'll believe it when I see it.

We’ve already seen it. Towns was an All NBA center, and literally switched positions to add Gobert to the team. He was the main guy feeding him at the start of the season.

Can you name any other All NBA player who would give up their position to add talent for his team?

Ant was raving about the pizza party at Towns house after Game 4, while KAT is hearing from everyone right now how this is Ant’s team. I have no worries whatsoever about Towns ego.

That's not the same thing and you know it.

So let me get this straight... you're arguing that KAT is selfish, based on the order in which he is named in pre-game announcements?

While ignoring ALL of the evidence of the contrary when it comes to KAT's ACTIONS? I could type for quite a while to show you proof of why you are wrong, but if you can't see it without it being explained to you, then you are blind.

Or at least blinded by your desire to move KAT (for [insert reasons here]) is filtering out everything that conflicts with that desire (in this case THE FACTS).

You've built your narrative and no matter what we type to the contrary will change that. Let's not start making stuff up about KAT to fit our narratives. The guy has been a class act, loyal, kind human being his entire tenure with the Wolves. At least give him some respect before shopping him off as though he's a commodity. He's earned that much.

[shangrila]

So let me get this straight...

You're totally about to misrepresent my argument aren't you?

you're arguing that KAT is selfish, based on the order in which he is named in pre-game announcements?

Called it.

Allow me to set you straight. My point, as I reiterated multiple times now, is that I'm not going to assume KAT will take Edwards taking over 'his' team in stride until I see it. My point with the last name called in pre-game example is that, in terms of that stuff, this year it was still KAT's team. So he hasn't faced that beyond talking head and forum crap, which I doubt he or any player puts a ton of stock in.

That isn't a shot at KAT. It doesn't imply that he won't. Maybe he will and there won't be any problems. But I'm not going to just assume that will happen either.

Shrink's examples don't dispute what I said. Saying he accommodated Gobert is meaningless. Gobert was never a threat to the Wolves being KAT's team so that's no counterargument. And talking about everyone having pizza at KATs place is...I mean, ok? I don't get how that disputed what I was saying either? They don't hate each others guts I suppose but again that wasn't my point so how is that a counterargument?

While ignoring ALL of the evidence of the contrary when it comes to KAT's ACTIONS? I could type for quite a while to show you proof of why you are wrong, but if you can't see it without it being explained to you, then you are blind.

Or at least blinded by your desire to move KAT (for [insert reasons here]) is filtering out everything that conflicts with that desire (in this case THE FACTS).

Considering you failed to understand my point to begin with I'd love to see what proof or FACTS you could muster up to enlighten me to the contrary. Hell, considering my whole point boils down to "I'll wait and see" I'd just love to see you or anyone try and argue against that in a general sense.

You've built your narrative and no matter what we type to the contrary will change that. Let's not start making stuff up about KAT to fit our narratives. The guy has been a class act, loyal, kind human being his entire tenure with the Wolves. At least give him some respect before shopping him off as though he's a commodity. He's earned that much.

The only one with a narrative here is you. You've assumed that since I disagreed with you I must be this whole list of things and believe all of this BS without even reading what I actually wrote or was arguing about.

Which is hilariously ironic given you tried to accuse me of being blind.

[younggunsmn]

1. Because of their ages, experience, and contract, Towns (5 yrs /260 mil) and Gobert (3/141) trade value can only go up a small amount, but it can go down a LARGE amount due to an injury/continued poor play.
To the point they become untradeable without attaching value (If Gobert isnt closing in on that already).
Let's be realistic, they are known quantities and if will take a 1st or 2nd team All-NBA season to raise their value much, and at that point we would want to keep them anyway.

2. KAT and attitude. There is a very long history here.
Before the Portland game, Finch says guys are "in their feelings about their touches" and KAT proceeds to take 3 shots in an embarrassing loss.
I will give KAT credit for improved composure with the refs since his return.
There have also been several disappearing acts in big games.
Conley seems to be rubbing off on him better than many of the previous vetarans we have put around him.
I still don't think he has the attitude or commitment to be a franchise player. that's why Ant has passed him.
There will be decades to play video games when his career is over.

3. KAT still fouls way too much and Rudy has also been having foul problems here.
I will give them credit for trying to play more physical, but there have also been big problems with poor technique with both leading to a lot of this. Guys this deep into their careers should have a lot better muscle memory about what they can and cannot do with their hands. Only discipline and repetition can correct this and the coaches need to focus hard on this.

4. Spacing issues have loomed LARGE since the trade. Gobert's weaknesses are effecting every other player out there on the court, no matter who is out there, but Ant and KAT are suffering the most.
The best spurts in the Denver series were when one or the other of KAT/Rudy was on the bench.
We went from 7th in offensive efficiency to 23rd.
It is the key flaw leading to bad crunch time offense and many blown leads, with the other factor being growing pains with Ant trying to be a shot creator.
Nothing Finch tried has made it any better.
It is a case of a front office trading for a player knowing he has these problems, and having the hubris to think they know better how to fix them than the team trading him away who couldn't fix them for 10 years.
If you are asking a supermax big man to stand in the corner and shoot 3 pointers you have made a colossal blunder in your use of resources.

5. If you trade away Gobert and put a better fitting player next to KAT, you can make both Ant and KAT better.
I'm more confident in making things work defensively with KAT/Naz than I am offensively with Rudy. D-Lo is gone, Jaden will be back, and we have much better backcourt defenders now. It all depends on finding that better fit next to KAT.
KAT has more value, but I'd rather trade Rudy because he's the one causing the spacing issues, which IMHO are unfixable.

6. Finding a 2nd Backcourt scorer and backup PG is the biggest current hole on the team outside of the awkward 2 big situation.

[younggunsmn]

I’m not sure which thread to post this in, but I saw a couple nuggets in the new CBA that I wanted to pass along.

1. The MLE can now be used as a TPE. This is a big deal for MIN, who isn’t an attractive destination to free agents, so we might be able to do better using it in trades. The non-taxpayer MLE next year will be $12.2 mil.

I also have been meaning to mention to those that don’t know that CBA rules have teams determine if they are over the lux at the END of the season. I agree that MIN doesn’t want to be over the lux next year and start the repeater tax for a team that’s about to get very expensive. However, they could make a move that puts them a little over the lux this summer, and plan to make further moves during the season to slip back under.

2. There are exceptions now for 2nd round picks, to let teams lock them up for 3-4 years without biting into cap space or other exceptions to do it. For example, last year we signed SloMo to a number just under the MLE, so we had enough of the MLE left over to give Josh Minott his Hinkie Special. This is a nice rule for MIN, since we have a GM that has been a good evaluator of young talent in the 2nd round, and because team control is a big deal for the franchise.

3. The new CBA lifts the rules on how many Designated Veterans a team can have. In the previous CBA, you could only have two, and one had to be homegrown. You may recall that this limited the teams where Ben Simmons could be traded. I’ve wondered about this rule for a while for MIN, because KAT and Gobert are designated veteran exceptions, and I wondered what happened if Ant becomes one? Now there are no worries.

Thanks for this. The MLE as a TPE is a very interesting wrinkle. I can see teams using this a lot going forward.
Rebuilding teams to take contracts for draft picks, FA destinations sending players out to create cap room, and maybe even contenders to add players at the deadline.

We could take TJ McConnell into our MLE for instance and have 3.5 mil left to add another player.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

I agree with younggunsmn for the most part. I'm not convince that Rudy can becone a offensive treat. He never was in Utah. IF he can come back to his level in terms of defense, then he can be useful, if not it's a waste and need to be trade. If i was the FO, i will make him avalaible and see what the market can offer. I'm afraid it may be 10 cent to 1 dollar after the season he make. And for KAT, can he be a winning pc? i would say yes specially if he don't have an inflated EGO and let Ant and Mc Daniels leading the team.
So basically if the FO don't get craxy offer for KAT or decent offer for Rudy, im afraid we have to make a run with the same starting 5.
IF we resign Reid, it's probably enough for a top 4-6 but not a winning team unless Ant and MC Daniels improve quite fast. But they are young and need times. TO from ANT won't disapear with magic and Jaden won't become a 20 PPG player immediatly.

[AdonalFoyle4Prez]

Would you guys do a trade of Poole + Green + Kuminga + Looney + 2023 1st Round Pick + Future 1st Round Pick for Rudy Gobert + Kyle Anderson + Mike Conley?

[Note30]

Would you guys do a trade of Poole + Green + Kuminga + Looney + 2023 1st Round Pick + Future 1st Round Pick for Rudy Gobert + Kyle Anderson + Mike Conley?

Ant / NAW
Poole / #19
McDaniels /Prince
Green / Kuminga
KAT/Reid /Looney

You tell me.

[AdonalFoyle4Prez]

Would you guys do a trade of Poole + Green + Kuminga + Looney + 2023 1st Round Pick + Future 1st Round Pick for Rudy Gobert + Kyle Anderson + Mike Conley?

Ant / NAW
Poole / #19
McDaniels /Prince
Green / Kuminga
KAT/Reid /Looney

You tell me.

LOL, lets make it simpler: Poole + 2023 FRP or 2025 FRP (Protected) for Mike Conley?

[Slim Tubby]

Would you guys do a trade of Poole + Green + Kuminga + Looney + 2023 1st Round Pick + Future 1st Round Pick for Rudy Gobert + Kyle Anderson + Mike Conley?

Ant / NAW
Poole / #19
McDaniels /Prince
Green / Kuminga
KAT/Reid /Looney

You tell me.

LOL, lets make it simpler: Poole + 2023 FRP or 2025 FRP (Protected) for Mike Conley?

It's going to be a lot more expensive than that to dump Poole's horrific contract. The fact that teams like GSW can spend 50% above the established Salary Cap should also include SEVERE penalties for doing so unwisely.

GSW are the Yankees of the NBA...they deserve no respect relying on deep pockets to outspend opponents that manage their Caps with far more efficiency.

The NBA can't even sniff the jocks of the NFL when it comes to creating a system designed to protect fans of all teams for the betterment of the game.

[TwolvesFanRome]

What about Gabe Vincent ? He will be UFA..