Khris Middleton Contract Discussion (and Poll)

[RiotPunch]

You can sign and trade him. Bring back matching salary and picks. We need to do this. Kha$h is washed.

Sorry, but the rules only allow us take take back half the salary we send out in a sign and trade. The team acquiring Khris will likely need to do salary matching, which means a 3rd team will need to be involved to make a legal deal.

Also, historically, sign and trade deals that do not include RFAs have netted very little return. The Jimmy Butler and Kyle Lowry deals are examples of this.

Is this true about taking half back? I thought so too but then I read something the other day that said that only applies if Middleton were getting a 20% raise or something like that. So if that’s true, we just need Middleton’s first year salary to be under $46 mil I believe to avoid the BYC rule.

I do agree that the return on such deals is generally very disappointing.

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Correct. I had to dig into this the other day because I was wrong, too. Khris is a unique case in that he should avoid BYC restrictions because he was already being paid such a high amount I don't see him getting the 20% raise that would trigger BYC. Bird rights AND 20% raise = BYC for Khris.

[paulpressey25]

If I knew I was getting that player for the next four years, I'd have no problem paying him whatever.

Don't think we even need it for four years. But we need it for at least two years, including 65 or so regular season games.

What that knees looks like to the ortho doctors is the big determinant. That and Middleton's mindset on what he wants to do.

[emunney]

If I knew I was getting that player for the next four years, I'd have no problem paying him whatever.

Don't think we even need it for four years. But we need it for at least two years, including 65 or so regular season games.

What that knees looks like to the ortho doctors is the big determinant. That and Middleton's mindset on what he wants to do.

Agree 100%. I try to be clear that I'm making assumptions about his knee. I think they're somewhat reasonable but I wouldn't bet $160m on them either way. I would want to have a half dozen experts look at the imaging.

[paulpressey25]

Agree 100%. I try to be clear that I'm making assumptions about his knee. I think they're somewhat reasonable but I wouldn't bet $160m on them either way. I would want to have a half dozen experts look at the imaging.

Do you concur with my post above on the ramifications of him signing/not-signing. You're the one who started that discussion in earnest the other day. There are some massive benefits to the team if he walks, both financial and ability to build the roster going forward.

Not trying to draw the ire of the strong Middleton fans, but I think a guy like Hinkie would say to let him walk, and tell the owners it will save them $250+ million and provide the GM with more tools.

[ReasonablySober]

*Stugotz Voice*

This has never happened before,

[RiotPunch]

If Khris walks, Bucks are at about $114 million of salaries assuming Carter opts out. Cap will be $134 million. Lux tax of $162 million. The 2nd apron, where we lose the tax-payer MLE, etc will be about $180 million.

Someone creative might be able to retool this on the fly and avoid the repeater.

So, in this scenario, is your plan to renounce all of our own free agents? Brook's cap hold alone effectively puts us back over the cap pretty quick, but if you are willing to turn the page on Khris/Brook/Carter/Ingles/Wes/Crowder and just renounce everyone-- you get a grand total of (according to Spotrac) $12.9M, slightly above the MLE I think, to spend. Then the room-MLE, I believe. Or you keep Brook's hold and make use of the full MLE.

[emunney]

Agree 100%. I try to be clear that I'm making assumptions about his knee. I think they're somewhat reasonable but I wouldn't bet $160m on them either way. I would want to have a half dozen experts look at the imaging.

Do you concur with my post above on the ramifications of him signing/not-signing. You're the one who started that discussion in earnest the other day. There are some massive benefits to the team if he walks, both financial and ability to build the roster going forward.

Not trying to draw the ire of the strong Middleton fans, but I think a guy like Hinkie would say to let him walk, and tell the owners it will save them $250+ million and provide the GM with more tools.

Swanson had a point about most of this stuff not taking effect for two years -- not sure if he meant 2024-25 or 25-26. I know the increased tax penalties themselves don't start until 25-26 but I believe the restrictions start before then. It's just not clear to me when exactly and frankly exactly how they work -- I haven't seen a detailed enough breakdown of how the draft pick stuff works, for example, to really know how these new repeater rules would impact us. At any rate I think if we could get Khris to drop his PO and take 2/80, that'd be a lot more practical for us and might be enough for Khris to forego a longer contract at a lower annual salary. And like you said I think, puts him on Jrue's schedule. I'd just want to get a lot more aggressive in trying to get some younger talent with the rest of the roster. You can keep a couple other old guys, of course, and take your pick on who that would be.

We've got to have some growth potential to try to interrupt this downward trend.

[paulpressey25]

So, in this scenario, is your plan to renounce all of our own free agents? Brook's cap hold alone effectively puts us back over the cap pretty quick, but if you are willing to turn the page on Khris/Brook/Carter/Ingles/Wes/Crowder and just renounce everyone-- you get a grand total of (according to Spotrac) $12.9M, slightly above the MLE I think, to spend. Then the room-MLE, I believe. Or you keep Brook's hold and make use of the full MLE.

I think we actually have almost $20 million to spend if we renounced everyone and the cap comes in as projected. That said, I wouldn't renounce anyone. Keep all those guys and try to bring many back, both for on-court and trade slots.

But for Khris, the decision to keep him and at what number has major ramifications to both the luxury tax and these new 2nd apron restrictions. To Emunney's note above, we need clarification on when the 2nd apron restrictions take effect. If they take effect on July 1st of this year, we'd lose a lot of roster flexibility with Khris at a $40 million a year number. Is that worth it? Don't know. Depends on his knee and how creative Horst wants to get.

The best case scenario is Khris takes a 3/$90 or 4/$120 deal and keeps the starting salary at $28 million. That might keep us under the 2nd apron.

[-Jragon-]

I get it... the point is that if we don't sign Khris we can't use that money to sign anyone else anyways.. it encourages teams to keep their players and build with them.. but what a messed up system that someone on the verge of being washed and just got outplayed by journeymen is about to get 140 million... what a world we live in..

I mean I wouldn't really say he was outplayed by journeymen to be honest.

I heard of Khris Khash Middleton but I haven't heard of Gabe Vincent til the series started. Must be like some 1st round pick or something to whip our tails like that? Nah, undrafted and ran circles around us. Khash spun in a few circles, got dizzy and bounced the ball off his leg or something embarrassing.

[MickeyDavis]

The best case scenario is Khris takes a 3/$90 or 4/$120 deal and keeps the starting salary at $28 million. That might keep us under the 2nd apron.

This is where we need Edens and Haslam to have a handshake deal for Khris to come aboard one of their companies in 2028 at an annual salary of $10 million.

[RiotPunch]

So, in this scenario, is your plan to renounce all of our own free agents? Brook's cap hold alone effectively puts us back over the cap pretty quick, but if you are willing to turn the page on Khris/Brook/Carter/Ingles/Wes/Crowder and just renounce everyone-- you get a grand total of (according to Spotrac) $12.9M, slightly above the MLE I think, to spend. Then the room-MLE, I believe. Or you keep Brook's hold and make use of the full MLE.

I think we actually have almost $20 million to spend if we renounced everyone and the cap comes in as projected. That said, I wouldn't renounce anyone. Keep all those guys and try to bring many back, both for on-court and trade slots.

But for Khris, the decision to keep him and at what number has major ramifications to both the luxury tax and these new 2nd apron restrictions. To Emunney's note above, we need clarification on when the 2nd apron restrictions take effect. If they take effect on July 1st of this year, we'd lose a lot of roster flexibility with Khris at a $40 million a year number. Is that worth it? Don't know. Depends on his knee and how creative Horst wants to get.

The best case scenario is Khris takes a 3/$90 or 4/$120 deal and keeps the starting salary at $28 million. That might keep us under the 2nd apron.

Have to figure ~$5,889,636 for empty roster slot holds if we renounce everyone, which I think is the difference in our figures but, alas, you suggest keeping all.

You are right, though, we do not yet fully know what we'd be gaining/sacrificing in terms of penalties/restrictions this offseason with regard to Khris as we transition to the new CBA. Overall flexibility is good, and a very easy sell to owners, much harder sell to Giannis. Pretty wild implications if they implement that 2nd apron stuff off the bat, can't believe the players went for that.

[paulpressey25]

Have to figure ~$5,889,636 for empty roster slot holds if we renounce everyone, which I think is the difference in our figures but, alas, you suggest keeping all.

My bad. Had forgotten the empty roster holds.

Going to the other thread, if Jim O. is writing a piece on the problems involved with being above the 2nd apron, that tells me he was fed the story by the team. You guys all know what that means---right?

[SupremeHustle]

Gotta be one of the closest polls I've seen on this forum.

[emunney]

So, in this scenario, is your plan to renounce all of our own free agents? Brook's cap hold alone effectively puts us back over the cap pretty quick, but if you are willing to turn the page on Khris/Brook/Carter/Ingles/Wes/Crowder and just renounce everyone-- you get a grand total of (according to Spotrac) $12.9M, slightly above the MLE I think, to spend. Then the room-MLE, I believe. Or you keep Brook's hold and make use of the full MLE.

I think we actually have almost $20 million to spend if we renounced everyone and the cap comes in as projected. That said, I wouldn't renounce anyone. Keep all those guys and try to bring many back, both for on-court and trade slots.

But for Khris, the decision to keep him and at what number has major ramifications to both the luxury tax and these new 2nd apron restrictions. To Emunney's note above, we need clarification on when the 2nd apron restrictions take effect. If they take effect on July 1st of this year, we'd lose a lot of roster flexibility with Khris at a $40 million a year number. Is that worth it? Don't know. Depends on his knee and how creative Horst wants to get.

The best case scenario is Khris takes a 3/$90 or 4/$120 deal and keeps the starting salary at $28 million. That might keep us under the 2nd apron.

Have to figure ~$5,889,636 for empty roster slot holds if we renounce everyone, which I think is the difference in our figures but, alas, you suggest keeping all.

You are right, though, we do not yet fully know what we'd be gaining/sacrificing in terms of penalties/restrictions this offseason with regard to Khris as we transition to the new CBA. Overall flexibility is good, and a very easy sell to owners, much harder sell to Giannis. Pretty wild implications if they implement that 2nd apron stuff off the bat, can't believe the players went for that.

It's only going to hit a few teams, and they bumped up the room exception, the MLE, and added another two-way spot, which is a half mil salary that doesn't count against the cap. Plus Jaylen Brown is going to be able to get a much bigger raise on his extension (elections have consequences)!

I have no idea why the league wanted the midseason tournament, but I guess we'll find out if it sucks or not.

[RiotPunch]

Have to figure ~$5,889,636 for empty roster slot holds if we renounce everyone, which I think is the difference in our figures but, alas, you suggest keeping all.

My bad. Had forgotten the empty roster holds.

Going to the other thread, if Jim O. is writing a piece on the problems involved with being above the 2nd apron, that tells me he was fed the story by the team. You guys all know what that means---right?

What do you suggest that means? Prepping us for our new cap hell reality?

I think Jim is just doing his due diligence on the new CBA. I do know he is expecting us to run it back with Giannis/Jrue/Khris/Brook with a two-year clock on it all.

[LuessiT]

I voted to match it but realistically this year is a good year to get out of the tax if you let Middleton walk. Wouldn’t need much more.

[paulpressey25]

What do you suggest that means? Prepping us for our new cap hell reality?

Know you are friends with Jim O., so don't take this personally. But in the past, whenever an MJS writer (Enlund, Hunt, Gardner, Matt V.) did a very detailed piece addressing Bucks business topics typically only talked about on here and how they'd impact future roster decisions----they usually were fed the topic by someone in the organization. You know, to soften the ground with the casual fan base for when the eventual decision comes down.

If Jim's writing a piece that Horst's GM hand's will be tied behind his back by the new CBA, and it could lead to Giannis leaving, that tells me the team is either preparing for that, or more likely, they are preparing for Khris to walk. And when he does, remind us all that while it sucks, Horst can now do his job without the 2nd apron restrictions.

[RiotPunch]

What do you suggest that means? Prepping us for our new cap hell reality?

Know you are friends with Jim O., so don't take this personally. But in the past, whenever an MJS writer (Enlund, Hunt, Gardner, Matt V.) did a very detailed piece addressing Bucks business topics typically only talked about on here and how they'd impact future roster decisions----they usually were fed the topic by someone in the organization. You know, to soften the ground with the casual fan base for when the eventual decision comes down.

If Jim's writing a piece that Horst's GM hand's will be tied behind his back by the new CBA, and it could lead to Giannis leaving, that tells me the team is either preparing for that, or more likely, they are preparing for Khris to walk. And when he does, remind us all that while it sucks, Horst can now do his job without the 2nd apron restrictions.

Let's entertain this thought process, because it could very well be true--

Khris signs a mega deal with a team with ample space. No S&T, he is just gone. How does that affect how we approach Jrue? Extension-eligible this year, horrific in the 1st round, but still holding considerable value around the league, I would think.

[paulpressey25]

Let's entertain this thought process, because it could very well be true--

Khris signs a mega deal with a team with ample space. No S&T, he is just gone. How does that affect how we approach Jrue? Extension-eligible this year, horrific in the 1st round, but still holding considerable value around the league, I would think.

I think that means Jrue gets a big extension very quickly for roster stability. But that likely doesn't impact the cap/apron issues, because he's making $38 million two-years from now anyways, so add two more years on that at $40 million probably.

And then it means Horst gets creative in making some deals to replace Midds maybe not with one guy but with two. Come June 30th we'll learn very fast what the team thinks of Midds knees and whether Khris takes a discount to stay here. Going to be outright insane.

I just feel like Jim's upcoming article this Friday is going to be laying out groundwork for the the fans/talk radio hosts, for the team not being able to retain Midds (whether his decision, ours, or mutual).

[WRau1]

This is probably the easiest of the decisions to make this offseason, of course you resign him. Can't lose that salary slot.

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You can sign and trade him. Bring back matching salary and picks. We need to do this. Kha$h is washed.

No you can't. Not for equal value or salary.