2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

Masai's draft history with the Raptors:

Drafted from NCAA: 13/14 (92.9%)
Drafted from Other: 1/14 (7.1%)
(Bruno the only played drafted outside NCAA)

Of the 13 NCAA players drafted:

Freshman (Barnes): 1/13 (8.3%)
Sophomore (D Wright, P Siakam, J Poeltl, OG Anunoby, D Hernandez, D Johnson): 6/13 (46.2%)
Junior (D Daniels, D Banton, C Koloko): 3/13 (23.1%)
Senior (N Powell, M Flynn, J Harris): 3/13 (23.1%)

So basically he drafted Bruno and said to himself "never again"

[OakleyDokely]

Masai's draft history with the Raptors:

Drafted from NCAA: 13/14 (92.9%)
Drafted from Other: 1/14 (7.1%)
(Bruno the only played drafted outside NCAA)

Of the 13 NCAA players drafted:

Freshman (Barnes): 1/13 (8.3%)
Sophomore (D Wright, P Siakam, J Poeltl, OG Anunoby, D Hernandez, D Johnson): 6/13 (46.2%)
Junior (D Daniels, D Banton, C Koloko): 3/13 (23.1%)
Senior (N Powell, M Flynn, J Harris): 3/13 (23.1%)

So basically he drafted Bruno and said to himself "never again"

I think that was a, "I missed out on Giannis the year before" swing and a miss.

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

I think people like Bufkin because he shot 70% at the rim, and a good portion of that came in the half court.

For example George took 65 close 2s at 58% in a high usage role. Bufkin took nearly double, 125 and shot 69% in a lower usage role. I would feel a lot more comfortable with Bufkin.

I like him because he has nice footwork and fluidity and looks like he can get to his spots, uses screens really well, has some real growth potential as a passer and when you combine the ambidextrous at the rim efficiency with the free throw shooting efficiency and evidence of potential 3 ball & midrange efficiency when he peaks you have a guy who can score from everywhere. He offers offensive versatility and efficiency while not being a defensive liability. It's kinda nice that he can block shots pretty well for a guard just like Cason.

Any time you have a guy who is already great at the rim and at the free throw line there could be something special there because those are the two most efficient ways to score in the game of basketball. The question is how much will the 3 point shooting and midrange shooting improve (it's not like they're even BAD right now) but his FT% is encouraging to back up the improvement of those areas and if those areas improve you're gonna have a hell of a player on your hands. I believe in him.

[billy_hoyle]

I think people like Bufkin because he shot 70% at the rim, and a good portion of that came in the half court.

For example George took 65 close 2s at 58% in a high usage role. Bufkin took nearly double, 125 and shot 69% in a lower usage role. I would feel a lot more comfortable with Bufkin.

I like him because he has nice footwork and fluidity and looks like he can get to his spots, uses screens really well, has some real growth potential as a passer and when you combine the ambidextrous at the rim efficiency with the free throw shooting efficiency and evidence of potential 3 ball & midrange efficiency when he peaks you have a guy who can score from everywhere. He offers offensive versatility and efficiency while not being a defensive liability. It's kinda nice that he can block shots pretty well for a guard just like Cason.

Any time you have a guy who is already great at the rim and at the free throw line there could be something special there because those are the two most efficient ways to score in the game of basketball. The question is how much will the 3 point shooting and midrange shooting improve (it's not like they're even BAD right now) but his FT% is encouraging to back up the improvement of those areas and if those areas improve you're gonna have a hell of a player on your hands. I believe in him.

How well does rim finishing translate for D1 guards?

I would think this would be the skill that varies the most from college to the NBA (that and the ability to beat a guy off the dribble).

[DreamTeam09]

It could be that Kobe looked nice because he's a sophomore, the physical profile and player skillset, I'd rank Keyonte George higher. Kobe put up the exact same percentages his freshman year as George this year.

That's what's workouts are for tho I guess. I'd lean more towards George tho, better handle and deeper bag and also bigger

And then Kobe went and improved a lot. That's not a 'hey, these guys are equal', it's a 'Bufkin is way ahead of George" as players aren't likely to improve the way Bufkin did.

Yep a lot of people don't realize that when you see the evolution of a player and get a better idea of the their trajectory you take that info and run with it instead of using it to justify selecting other players who can only possibly reach that level given another year of development.

But that's all irrelevant in the case of Bufkin vs. George because again I think it's been said like 5000 times already, Kobe Bufkin is only 6 weeks older than Keyonte George and that's all that should really matter. Keyonte's freshman year compared with Kobe's sophomore year are what we should be going by in terms of footage and statistics.

When I think of how these two kids are going to evolve I see Kobe having much better potential to play a winning brand of basketball and Keyonte likely being more of a black hole on offense with mental lapses as a defender and facilitator. Obviously Keyonte's ability to finish through contact is enticing but he's a really sloppy player with too many bad tendencies on the court for my liking even though he can razzle dazzle you sometimes. He has a lot to overcome and the body language he has displayed on the court at times does not encourage me.

Age has nothing to do with the fact that he's more experienced than him.

Two 19yr olds but one is a sophomore and one is a freshman, then yeah I would expect the sophomore to have better %s than the freshman even if they're the same age. Because he's more experienced at that level, what's so difficult to understand about that.

I unno if George failed a grade or played prep or something, but experience is a factor

[REJECTEDBYCLARK]

And then Kobe went and improved a lot. That's not a 'hey, these guys are equal', it's a 'Bufkin is way ahead of George" as players aren't likely to improve the way Bufkin did.

Yep a lot of people don't realize that when you see the evolution of a player and get a better idea of the their trajectory you take that info and run with it instead of using it to justify selecting other players who can only possibly reach that level given another year of development.

But that's all irrelevant in the case of Bufkin vs. George because again I think it's been said like 5000 times already, Kobe Bufkin is only 6 weeks older than Keyonte George and that's all that should really matter. Keyonte's freshman year compared with Kobe's sophomore year are what we should be going by in terms of footage and statistics.

When I think of how these two kids are going to evolve I see Kobe having much better potential to play a winning brand of basketball and Keyonte likely being more of a black hole on offense with mental lapses as a defender and facilitator. Obviously Keyonte's ability to finish through contact is enticing but he's a really sloppy player with too many bad tendencies on the court for my liking even though he can razzle dazzle you sometimes. He has a lot to overcome and the body language he has displayed on the court at times does not encourage me.

Age has nothing to do with the fact that he's more experienced than him.

Two 19yr olds but one is a sophomore and one is a freshman, then yeah I would expect the sophomore to have better %s than the freshman even if they're the same age. Because he's more experienced at that level, what's so difficult to understand about that.

I unno if George failed a grade or played prep or something, but experience is a factor

So you're basically affirming that Kobe has a permanent advantage of having more higher level basketball experience under his belt. Gotcha.

[Dalek]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=ACCDigitalNetwork

Klintman gives me Zeke Nnaji vibes. Nice toolsy PF, but is a little on the softer end. He didn't play a ton, but he did manage to get up a good number of threes.

A similar stretch big I like that have a similar upside would be Mouhamed Gueye from Washington State. He made big improvements on his shooting in year 2. He had to play C and got beat up quite a bit, but he is a high skill player.

Watch on YouTube

[Dalek]

Masai's draft history with the Raptors:

Drafted from NCAA: 13/14 (92.9%)
Drafted from Other: 1/14 (7.1%)
(Bruno the only played drafted outside NCAA)

Of the 13 NCAA players drafted:

Freshman (Barnes): 1/13 (8.3%)
Sophomore (D Wright, P Siakam, J Poeltl, OG Anunoby, D Hernandez, D Johnson): 6/13 (46.2%)
Junior (D Daniels, D Banton, C Koloko): 3/13 (23.1%)
Senior (N Powell, M Flynn, J Harris): 3/13 (23.1%)

Not too much to take from this when Masai only had one lotto pick and he went with a one and done like most do. From where we drafted over this successful time, we usually late first or in the second round. At that point the freshman/one and dones group had its flaws. I do remember being surprised when we passed on Jaden Hardy and Brandon Boston over the past couple years.

The sophomore group is a sweet spot. Relatively young players, but have had some college seasoning. Hawkins and Bufkin seem like the highest potential 13 picks with Podz possibly in that group. Bufkin is the youngest of that group and has the better defensive metrics, but Podz and Hawkins are far and away better shooters.

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

[Psubs]

I think people like Bufkin because he shot 70% at the rim, and a good portion of that came in the half court.

For example George took 65 close 2s at 58% in a high usage role. Bufkin took nearly double, 125 and shot 69% in a lower usage role. I would feel a lot more comfortable with Bufkin.

I agree with you and also think it would be hard for George to equal out to Bufkin even in year two. Bufkin's finishes are extremely unorthodox because he has more flexibility to adjust his finishes around defenders. He is also just quicker than George.

Keyonte is going to be closer to a power guard who plays through contact. Maybe a bouncier Jalen Brunson using craft and his strength to get to the basket in time. Right now, Keyonte powers through contact, but it will take time for him to adjust to the NBA.

Keyonte is more like Bruce Brown, if he works hard on defense.

Watch on YouTube

[Ell Curry]

I watched about half of Michigan's game this year (big fan, but depressing as hell team, literally nothing at the 4 and the tiny frosh PG did his best, but should have been a backup this year) and I'm not sure where I stand on Bufkin. Definitely not a no-brainer like Wagner was. Smart player. Inhibited by his lack of bulk at times. Couldn't really take over offensively but good off the ball and rarely did anything frustrating, so should look good as the 4th option offensively on the court or 3rd in bench lineups if he can get stronger (and he's young for his class, so probably should).

Sort of the anti-Poole, who clearly had great offensive potential but very raw in terms of bball IQ and all around game.

I'd lean towards optimistic because of his improvement, his age, his defence got solid and he can shoot it so should be fine in a medium usage role. But he also sort of lacked the obvious first step advantage that Wagner (length of strides) and Poole (shiftiness) had. But if he's going to be a 15+ point scorer, I think it will take most of or all of his entire rookie deal to get there. I don't really see him as an obvious Masai pick since he lacks the physical advantages that OG and Siakam had.

[Kevin Willis]

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=ACCDigitalNetwork

Klintman gives me Zeke Nnaji vibes. Nice toolsy PF, but is a little on the softer end. He didn't play a ton, but he did manage to get up a good number of threes.

A similar stretch big I like that have a similar upside would be Mouhamed Gueye from Washington State. He made big improvements on his shooting in year 2. He had to play C and got beat up quite a bit, but he is a high skill player.

Watch on YouTube

I get poor man Hendricks vibe who can play SF / PF. He has handles but his defense needs to be better.

I have liked Gueye for sometime now. Not sure why he doesn't get the recognition he should, his stats are decent and he's mobile. Both are upside players I agree.

[ArthurVandelay]

My DRAFTBOARD

Wemby
Scoot
Brandon Miller
Bilal Coulibaly
Brandin Podziemski
Cason Wallace
Kobe Buskin
Marcus Sasser
Taylor Hendricks
Jarace Walker
Gradey Dick
Rayan Rupert
Leonard Miller
Jaylen Clark
Sidy Cissoko
Amari Bailey
Anthony Black
Dariq Whitehead



Not really interested in any one else

[Mark_83]

My mock

Wemby
Scoot
Brandon Miller
Bilal Coulibaly
Brandin Podziemski
Cason Wallace
Kobe Buskin
Marcus Sasser
Taylor Hendricks
Jarace Walker
Gradey Dick
Rayan Rupert
Leonard Miller
Jaylen Clark
Sidy Cissoko
Amari Bailey
Anthony Black
Dariq Whitehead



Not really interested in any one else

Mock? You mean draft board? A mock is what you think will happen at the draft.

[HumbleRen]

I wish we sold at the deadline instead of going for that desperate ass win now move, would of loved to have 2 picks in this draft.

I’d draft Kobe Bufkin and Cissko and go to bed with a smile on me face.

[Psubs]

I watched about half of Michigan's game this year (big fan, but depressing as hell team, literally nothing at the 4 and the tiny frosh PG did his best, but should have been a backup this year) and I'm not sure where I stand on Bufkin. Definitely not a no-brainer like Wagner was. Smart player. Inhibited by his lack of bulk at times. Couldn't really take over offensively but good off the ball and rarely did anything frustrating, so should look good as the 4th option offensively on the court or 3rd in bench lineups if he can get stronger (and he's young for his class, so probably should).

Sort of the anti-Poole, who clearly had great offensive potential but very raw in terms of bball IQ and all around game.

I'd lean towards optimistic because of his improvement, his age, his defence got solid and he can shoot it so should be fine in a medium usage role. But he also sort of lacked the obvious first step advantage that Wagner (length of strides) and Poole (shiftiness) had. But if he's going to be a 15+ point scorer, I think it will take most of or all of his entire rookie deal to get there. I don't really see him as an obvious Masai pick since he lacks the physical advantages that OG and Siakam had.

Nice insight. Would he be like in between a Tre Mann and Terrence Mann? Slightly taller than Tre and shoot but with same handles. Slightly shorter than Terrence Mann but finishes decently.

[Dalek]

I know the majority likes Sidy as the upside pick at 13, but how in good conscience do we select him over Canadian kid Leonard Miller who at 19 averaged 18/8/2 and 1 steal and 1 block playing on the same team?

Honestly, watching his film he is deceptively simple in what he does and shows better athleticism than I initially thought. Last year I thought this kid is too raw to play in the NBA and a year later he looks like this:

Read on Twitter

Swing skill for both is shooting, but Miller got pretty better as the season went on.

Also I just realized that one of the most underrated defenders I mentioned before, Emanuel Miller, is Leonard's older brother. It may be possible to get him undrafted.

[Thaddy]

NSJr is too skinny to be an effective NBA starter. He's going to be a sixth man at best or flame out like Bouknight did.

The pick is Cissoko. He's the obvious choice before Wallace, Hendricks, Whitmore, Black and several other high "potential" guys. If he's drafted watch him be the starting shooting guard come the start of the season.

Poeltl
Barnes
Achiuwa
Cissoko
VanVleet

This is the best case scenario. Siakam and OG are our highest value guys. Sell high and rebuild on the fly. Raise Fred's value and trade him if the season is lost. PF is Barnes natural position and he has the potential to be better than OG and Siakam in the next 2 years. Achiuwa is a more fluid player than OG and he has similar effectiveness on our defense.

Unless the goal is to tank, that front court should never be playing together.

Poeltl is an above average center. Barnes is a ROTY. Achiuwa has shown flashes but would be the weakest link. Fred was an all star that hopefully had a bad year (new role excuse?). Cissoko is young but he's has a lot going for him in the GLeague. I'll discuss him more here but the other guys have their reasons to be optimistic too.

Cissoko has a high AST%, improved every month, gets extremely hot from 3,18 years old, high/improved monthly FTr, 6'7, bulky but quick, explosive, glimpse of burst on the dribble, protects the rim as a guard, switchable, and he can create a bit in the mid range. I have no idea why he isn't a top 10 pick, he will easily be the steal of the draft.

I'd guess we get something half decent for OG and Siakam, realistically OG is the most likely to go too.

C Poeltl
PF Barnes
SF Achiuwa
SG Siakam
PG Cissoko

That is legitimately switchable 1 through 5 and you can't definitely say any of the players listed above will be below average at their listed positions. If they brick hard and can't work together then we can blow it up and lose a middling lottery pick. We took a risk and a bad scenario turned into a worse one. The only thing that can be done now is write it off.

[ArthurVandelay]

My mock

Wemby
Scoot
Brandon Miller
Bilal Coulibaly
Brandin Podziemski
Cason Wallace
Kobe Buskin
Marcus Sasser
Taylor Hendricks
Jarace Walker
Gradey Dick
Rayan Rupert
Leonard Miller
Jaylen Clark
Sidy Cissoko
Amari Bailey
Anthony Black
Dariq Whitehead



Not really interested in any one else

Mock? You mean draft board? A mock is what you think will happen at the draft.

My bad. Draft board

[Psubs]

I know the majority likes Sidy as the upside pick at 13, but how in good conscience do we select him over Canadian kid Leonard Miller who at 19 averaged 18/8/2 and 1 steal and 1 block playing on the same team?

Honestly, watching his film he is deceptively simple in what he does and shows better athleticism than I initially thought. Last year I thought this kid is too raw to play in the NBA and a year later he looks like this:

Read on Twitter

Swing skill for both is shooting, but Miller got pretty better as the season went on.

Also I just realized that one of the most underrated defenders I mentioned before, Emanuel Miller, is Leonard's older brother. It may be possible to get him undrafted.

Even if he's Chris Bosh lite, there's no real route to starting unless Siakam is traded, as Barnes is being built around. Sure if the Raptors got another pick in the 20's draft him.

Do you think he could be as good as Jeremy Sochan? Really the Raptors need shooting, playmaking and a POA defender (so Barnes isn't doing it). Thus the like for Cissoko who looks like he can do all 3, though shooting needs a lot of reps and may take 3-4 years. Can buy a shooter with the fulll MLE, like Eric Gordon, if they want to compete next year.