What level of success would make the Gobert trade acceptable?

[Klomp]

One thing I keep thinking about is how hugely important fit and cohesion is. We have a serious amount of talent on this team. We have had a lot of talent in the last 8 years. Names like Butler, Towns, Lavine, Wiggins, Vanderbelt, Russell, have played here but we never had great success with them. Now we see these guys in big games on other teams. Wiggins has a ring and was a major player. Butler is carrying the Heat. Vando and Dlo are in the second round and may make the conference finals as key pieces. Lavine has been a known name and a recognizable star.

None of those guys are horrible players. We just didn't have teams around them or had enough time with them to build something really good. Gobert we already know, is an all time defender. We have to find a way to get pieces that fit and we have to keep them together so they can grow. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make another trade but we really need to start putting something cohesive together and we need stop blowing everything up every year.

Most of the teams that are in the second round right now have largely been built for years. The Lakers have a ton of new pieces but they still have their core of Lebron and AD who have been there for some time and are vet players. The Wolves need to start doing that.

I feel like the identity of this team going forward is going to be defense. That's why you bring in Gobert. That's why you hold on to McDaniels. That's why you draft Josh Minott. (That's why you draft Walker Kessler). That's why you bring in Anderson. That's why you swap out Russell for Conley and add Alexander-Walker. I feel like those are too many moves to just be labeled as a coincidental shift for the franchise.

[Baseline81]

The coach is always the easiest scapegoat and change. Though the two situations are completely different as with the Bucks they have sort of seen the full range of his coaching/system and want to move in a different direction. He had 5 seasons with Giannis (since he was 23 years old), that's a much larger sample size to judge a coach than 2.5 years with a patchwork roster and a ton of youth. Not saying that firing Bud was the right choice, but the logic is much more easy to understand than the Finch hate.

Finch has barely scratched the surface of what he is capable of as a HC imo. How did the expectation of Timberwolves coaches suddenly become that they don't make mistakes or they should be replaced?

Players make mistakes, EVERYONE makes mistakes. The most important two things when it comes to mistakes is:

1.) Does the person recognize and own this mistake?
2.) Is this person willing and capable of addressing this mistake, so that it doesn't become a trend?

I'd say yes to both of those when it comes to Finch. He isn't Thibs saying "My way or f*ck you.".

You never expect a player to be a finished product in their first years. The main factor is awareness of areas that need to be improved and a willingness/work ethic/ability to improve in those areas.

Why are coaches treated as if they are static? Finch has had A LOT thrown at him in his first 2.5 seasons and of course he hasn't navigated it all perfectly, but he's done a pretty damn good job (and has shown not only the ability to own mistakes, but also to adapt).

Take every single coach the Wolves have ever had and try to think how they would have dealt with the same rosters and adversity that Finch has dealt with so far. I can't think of a single coach in Wolves history that would have handled it better.

1.) He took over a team that was 7 - 24 and LAST in the NBA and had them looking somewhat competent by the end of the season.
2.) He took a team with MASSIVE weaknesses and created systems that helped them overachieve and make the playoffs for the first time since Butler took a dump on the franchise.
3.) He took a roster that the new FO completely revamped that was now built for a style that ISN'T EVEN ATTEMPTED in the modern NBA, had his best player (KAT was the best player on the roster coming into the season) miss 52 games AND STILL made the playoffs for the 2nd year in a row, which was the first time since KEVIN F*CKING GARNETT was here nearly 20 years ago.

Holy sh*t guys. Did you get a lobotomy to forget how TERRIBLE we've been for the past 20 years?

I mean I know it's a "What have you done for me lately?" league, but so many of you have suddenly turned into mindless Laker-esque fans after 1 playoff season?

I wouldn't say the two situations are completely different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Wolves made the Gobert trade, Connelly and owners, not just fans, had visions of making it out of the first round. Why else was he brought in when the previous year's team made the playoffs? And clearly, despite Budenholzer's win percentage and championship two years ago, Milwaukee's brass had just as high, and more likely higher, expectations.

Finch had input into the revamp. All parties must have discussed a timeframe for integrating Gobert, whether that's adjusting to his style or him adapting to the Wolves. And based on an article around the mid-point of the season, it was taking longer than everyone expected.

You and Klomp continue to bring up the past, and how making the second round would be such an accomplishment for this organization. But again, you seem to be forgetting that this year's team was one of the most talented in franchise history. You cannot compare it to team's post Garnett trade. Do names such as Milicic, Shved and Williams ring any bells? It's why there was frustration when such a team, with and without Towns, could not beat the dross of the league. As you stated, "the coach is always the easiest scapegoat."

Think about this for a second. From the post-season presser/interview, Finch admitted he will have to change things. Why couldn't a new coach come in when said change will occur?

[urinesane]

I wouldn't say the two situations are completely different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Wolves made the Gobert trade, Connelly and owners, not just fans, had visions of making it out of the first round. Why else was he brought in when the previous year's team made the playoffs? And clearly, despite Budenholzer's win percentage and championship two years ago, Milwaukee's brass had just as high, and more likely higher, expectations.

Finch had input into the revamp. All parties must have discussed a timeframe for integrating Gobert, whether that's adjusting to his style or him adapting to the Wolves. And based on an article around the mid-point of the season, it was taking longer than everyone expected.

Think about this for a second. From the post-season presser/interview, Finch admitted he will have to change things. Why couldn't a new coach come in when said change will occur?

Yes, they had visions. Those visions did not include the following assumptions:

1.) Gobert would come into training camp hurt (and not really be able to take part).
2.) KAT would get an illness, lose a bunch of weight, and come into training camp not able to take part (at least not fully).
3.) DLo would refuse to adapt and use the Gobert lob threat to open up his own game (and actually pass it to Gobert).
4.) KAT would miss 52 games with a significant injury after 21 games (or whatever the number was).
5.) It would take players/coaches long to adjust to Gobert and his style of play (even though from all accounts of former Gobert teammates it usually took a season to adapt to him, even for someone as adaptable as Conley).

When you win a championship and keep much of the same core, of course the expectation will be competing for a championship. Had Giannis missed 52 games this year, they probably still would have gotten rid of Bud, because when it comes to a championship contending team underperforming you either fire the coach or blow it up (and they'd rather run it back with a new coach).

When you make the playoffs and then retool based on the limitation exposed in those playoffs (especially at the price the Wolves spent to get Gobert) of course the expectations will be that of a better result than the previous year. When the 5 factors above come in to play you have two choices:

1.) Adapt your expectations based on how things ACTUALLY played out and avoid throwing out the baby with the bath water.

2.) Reject reality, hold onto your previous expectations, and suffer until you come to terms with reality. All of the reactions we are seeing that are calling for heads to roll and major moves to be made are part of that suffering, because those people cannot let go of their expectations coming into last season. No amount of reasoning or facts will dissuade them, because they'd rather hold onto their delusions (that something that didn't happen SHOULD have happened) rather than admit that their expectations were wrong.

In our society for some reason when people are wrong it somehow = bad or losing. People hate to feel bad and they hate to lose, so instead of simply accepting the reality of the situation, they try to bend reality and make every excuse possible as to why they were not wrong, because in their mind it means they lost. The healthy way to deal with being wrong is to accept it, adjust based on new information, and try to do better in the future.

Instead people are stuck feeling bad because they can't simply admit that they were wrong and move on, and they will continue to suffer until they do.

I was wrong about my expectations coming into the season. After looking at things in context (i.e. the reality of what happened vs my expectations of what would happen) I don't feel that bad about this season. Was it fun? Not really, there were massive ups and downs constantly... but was it valuable for this team and worth it? I think so.

I think they are in a much better place right now than they were at this time last year and would be shocked if barring major injuries to the core that they won't be a much more successful regular season/playoff team.

Regardless of the outcomes, I will not attach my happiness to these outcomes, because I don't control them and I'd rather be happy than feel like I am right all the time.

[Klomp]

I think there are arguments that Milwaukee went all in on THIS SEASON.
-Brook Lopez in his last year.
-Middleton can opt out.
-The trade for Jae Crowder.

After deeming this season a failure, letting go of Budenholzer allows Horst to make one last reset for the new owner in an attempt to build a championship group around Giannis before his 2025 opt-out opportunity.

I don't think we're to that point. We have more than a 2-year window to build around Anthony Edwards.

[urinesane]

Note: I've left the poll open to change your answers.

The reason being that if it were permanent, generally people tend to dig in and just try to justify their previous held beliefs even if presented with compelling evidence/arguments (which generally makes for people debating rather than actually discussing something). I'm more interested in having a discussion and if someone makes a lot of sense, people that are open minded should have the opportunity to change their opinion on the subject (regardless of what their old opinion or new opinion was/is).

[Baseline81]

I think there are arguments that Milwaukee went all in on THIS SEASON.
-Brook Lopez in his last year.
-Middleton can opt out.
-The trade for Jae Crowder.

After deeming this season a failure, letting go of Budenholzer allows Horst to make one last reset for the new owner in an attempt to build a championship group around Giannis before his 2025 opt-out opportunity.

I don't think we're to that point. We have more than a 2-year window to build around Anthony Edwards.

You don't consider trading four first-round picks, a pick swap and a rookie, not to mention decent rotation players, as an all-in move?

Okay then...

[Klomp]

I think there are arguments that Milwaukee went all in on THIS SEASON.
-Brook Lopez in his last year.
-Middleton can opt out.
-The trade for Jae Crowder.

After deeming this season a failure, letting go of Budenholzer allows Horst to make one last reset for the new owner in an attempt to build a championship group around Giannis before his 2025 opt-out opportunity.

I don't think we're to that point. We have more than a 2-year window to build around Anthony Edwards.

You don't consider trading four first-round picks, a pick swap and a rookie, not to mention decent rotation players, as an all-in move?

Okay then...

I definitely don't think it was a one-year move. I'm not even sure I'd call it a two-year move.

[urinesane]

I think there are arguments that Milwaukee went all in on THIS SEASON.
-Brook Lopez in his last year.
-Middleton can opt out.
-The trade for Jae Crowder.

After deeming this season a failure, letting go of Budenholzer allows Horst to make one last reset for the new owner in an attempt to build a championship group around Giannis before his 2025 opt-out opportunity.

I don't think we're to that point. We have more than a 2-year window to build around Anthony Edwards.

You don't consider trading four first-round picks, a pick swap and a rookie, not to mention decent rotation players, as an all-in move?

Okay then...

Kyle on Flagrant Howls made this point as well, but I'll put my own spin on it a bit...

I spent over 15 years playing Poker from the early 2000's until like 2016 and 6 of those years working professionally in the industry, so I actually have some real world credibility when it comes to poker.

When a player moves "all-in" in a tournament (that doesn't have the ability to buy back in), if their decision is wrong, they no longer exist in that tournament. As a player, it's basically death within that game, you no longer exist and in that game have no value or assets (outside of prize money you may have made based on your finishing place).

Trading 4 FRP, a swap, a rookie, and decent rotational players is A LOT. It's nowhere near "all-in" by any interpretation of the term in theory or reality.

The Wolves lost those things... but that was simply a bet. Still on the table in front of them was:

1.) Anthony Edwards (a #1 pick in his 3nd season who showed a big jump the year before, a willingness/ability to learn, showed that he is a legit player in THE PLAYOFFS at 20 years old) A potential future Super Star.
2.)Karl-Anthony Towns (3× NBA All-Star, 2× All-NBA Third Team, NBA Rookie of the Year on a longterm contract with a willingness to adapt in anyway asked of him to help the team win (whether or not he was capable of making these adaptations, he was willing to try).
3.) Jaden McDaniels, another 3rd year player who is an immerging defensive stopper with legit 2-way potential who was a great value at his pick (a rarity for the Wolves).
4.) DLo's expiring contract (and the player).
5.) Prince - A returning bench vet on a good contract who had been a decent part of the previous year's playoff run with value around the league.
6.) Kyle Anderson - a very solid vet that is adaptable, plays smart, and was a solid part of the team that just knocked your ass out of the playoffs just months earlier.
7.) A bunch of development players that were good deals for their production (or potential production).
8.)Chris Finch - the 2nd most successful coach in Timberwolves history.

Won't even get into the FO or new ownership influence.

Even without having our 1st round picks in 2023, 2025, 2027, and 2029 they still had draft capital:

2023 - 2nd round NYK pick
2024 - 1st round pick (their own)
2026 - 1st round pick (lesser of our pick or Utah's pick), 2nd-round pick (lesser of MIA, IND, or SAS)
2027 - No Picks
2028 - 1st round pick (their own), 2nd round pick (their own)
2029 - No 1st round pick unless it's top 5), 2nd round pick (their own)

Keep in mind we are talking about just before the Gobert trade and what the Wolves still had just after the July 1st trade in draft capital (and note that they've improved it since). 7 draft picks over 7 years, not exactly all of your draft assets.

So.

Inconclusion... I would disagree that the Gobert trade was an "all-in move".

[minimus]

One thing I keep thinking about is how hugely important fit and cohesion is. We have a serious amount of talent on this team. We have had a lot of talent in the last 8 years. Names like Butler, Towns, Lavine, Wiggins, Vanderbelt, Russell, have played here but we never had great success with them. Now we see these guys in big games on other teams. Wiggins has a ring and was a major player. Butler is carrying the Heat. Vando and Dlo are in the second round and may make the conference finals as key pieces. Lavine has been a known name and a recognizable star.

None of those guys are horrible players. We just didn't have teams around them or had enough time with them to build something really good. Gobert we already know, is an all time defender. We have to find a way to get pieces that fit and we have to keep them together so they can grow. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make another trade but we really need to start putting something cohesive together and we need stop blowing everything up every year.

Most of the teams that are in the second round right now have largely been built for years. The Lakers have a ton of new pieces but they still have their core of Lebron and AD who have been there for some time and are vet players. The Wolves need to start doing that.

I feel like the identity of this team going forward is going to be defense. That's why you bring in Gobert. That's why you hold on to McDaniels. That's why you draft Josh Minott. (That's why you draft Walker Kessler). That's why you bring in Anderson. That's why you swap out Russell for Conley and add Alexander-Walker. I feel like those are too many moves to just be labeled as a coincidental shift for the franchise.

If defense is our identify, I don't see better fit at PG than Suggs. Sure, it is not realistic, but chemistry wise it would an ideal fit.

[FrenchMinnyFan]

It's hard to judge a trade specially after one year seems like re-writing history. No one could imagine Kessler will have such a good year ( need to be confirm) and that Rudy had such a average year.
The point is also what we expect from him. I expect him to be back to his level in defense which is elite one. I have zero expectations that his offense will become better, he is too old to improve for me. If he can be the Rudy jazz got, we have a bright future. Ant and MC are incredible, KAT is a star without the EGO issue , Mike one of the smartest PG in NBA.... add one or two good players and we are one of the best NBA team. I'm not worry.

[lewdog]

To answer the poll question, definitely I’m going to need to see a championship in the coming years for the Gobert trade to be successful. For me, it’s mostly because of the loss of all of those draft picks. I SO look forward to the excitement of the NBA draft and the potential of the draft for our Wolves. For basically 5 of the next 7 drafts, Connelly and Co. took that night and the days that lead into the draft away from us because of “the trade”. The draft is not only exciting, but it’s been historically our only vehicle for us to acquire top end talent. As Shrink has stated numerous times, Minnesota is by no means, a free agent destination. The draft IS our pipeline for success.
Saying all this, I’m still trying to be patient with this whole Gobert thing. In fact I honestly don’t think any of us knew much about Gobert until we watched him over this season with the Wolves. I would hope (no matter what side of the Rudy fence you’re on) that we in unison can all say, “we were expecting A LOT more”. I’m giving this trade one more season, but honestly through skeptical eyes.

[shrink]

I wouldn't say the two situations are completely different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Wolves made the Gobert trade, Connelly and owners, not just fans, had visions of making it out of the first round. Why else was he brought in when the previous year's team made the playoffs? And clearly, despite Budenholzer's win percentage and championship two years ago, Milwaukee's brass had just as high, and more likely higher, expectations.

Finch had input into the revamp. All parties must have discussed a timeframe for integrating Gobert, whether that's adjusting to his style or him adapting to the Wolves. And based on an article around the mid-point of the season, it was taking longer than everyone expected.

Think about this for a second. From the post-season presser/interview, Finch admitted he will have to change things. Why couldn't a new coach come in when said change will occur?

Yes, they had visions. Those visions did not include the following assumptions:

1.) Gobert would come into training camp hurt (and not really be able to take part).
2.) KAT would get an illness, lose a bunch of weight, and come into training camp not able to take part (at least not fully).
3.) DLo would refuse to adapt and use the Gobert lob threat to open up his own game (and actually pass it to Gobert).
4.) KAT would miss 52 games with a significant injury after 21 games (or whatever the number was).
5.) It would take players/coaches long to adjust to Gobert and his style of play (even though from all accounts of former Gobert teammates it usually took a season to adapt to him, even for someone as adaptable as Conley)

This is where I’m at too, and I’m comfortable with that opinion.

I don’t like Tighe’s poker analogy. Yes, a big bet was made, but in poker, there is no risk that you suddenly won’t get to use your second card, or that cards 1-5 is a straight in some circumstances, but not in others.

This is what I see here. Basketball is a game set in reality, and real things happened. I can’t endorse a position of, “We expected second round, I don’t care what circumstances arose, I didn’t get what I wanted, so the trade is a failure.” The thing that gives me hope is that those events are very unlikely to occur next season, and I think we saw the floor of what this team can be, I want to see what the ceiling is.

[urinesane]

To answer the poll question, definitely I’m going to need to see a championship in the coming years for the Gobert trade to be successful. For me, it’s mostly because of the loss of all of those draft picks. I SO look forward to the excitement of the NBA draft and the potential of the draft for our Wolves. For basically 5 of the next 7 drafts, Connelly and Co. took that night and the days that lead into the draft away from us because of “the trade”. The draft is not only exciting, but it’s been historically our only vehicle for us to acquire top end talent. As Shrink has stated numerous times, Minnesota is by no means, a free agent destination. The draft IS our pipeline for success.
Saying all this, I’m still trying to be patient with this whole Gobert thing. In fact I honestly don’t think any of us knew much about Gobert until we watched him over this season with the Wolves. I would hope (no matter what side of the Rudy fence you’re on) that we in unison can all say, “we were expecting A LOT more”. I’m giving this trade one more season, but honestly through skeptical eyes.

It has never lead to WINNING though.

Let's say that all of our draft picks that we gave up will be in the lottery (which they definitely won't, but probably WOULD have been had we not made the Gobert trade at least this year's).

Here is what the Wolves have historically done with picks 1-14 (I won't include players we traded away on draft night because that would hurt even more):

- #1 Pick - Anthony Edwards (2020)
- #1 Pick Karl-Anthony Towns (2015)
- #2 Derrick Williams (2011)
- #3 Christian Laettner (1992)
- #4 Wesley Johnson (2010)
-#4 Stephon Marbury (1996)
- #5 Kris Dunn (2016)
- #5 Ricky Rubio (2009)
- #5 Kevin Love (2008)
- #5 Kevin Garnett (1995)
- #5 J.R. Rider - (1993)
- #6 Jarrett Culver (2019)
- #6 Jonny Flynn - (2009)
- #6 Wally Szczerbiak (1999)
- #6 Felton Spencer (1990)
- #7 Corey Brewer (2007)
- #7 Randy Foye (2006)
- #7 Luc Longley (1991)
- #10 Pooh Richardson (1989)
- #13 Zach LaVine (2014)
- #14 Shabazz Muhammad (2013)
- #14 Rashad McCants (2005)
- #14 William Avery (1999)


Out of those picks I would say the obvious #1 picks weren't TOO tough to make, but at least they hit on those (the only two times we've gotten them). Garnett was obviously the biggest success getting a HoFer at #5 and the franchise's best player (which they only put one legitimate contending roster around in his 12 seasons in MN). Other than that (I love Rubio/Brewer) most of this "talent" in the lottery never lead to winning.

The NBA Lottery (just like the real lottery) is mostly fool's gold. It's a time where fans of bad teams have glimmers of hope for these new shiny prospects that haven't crashed into the reality of the NBA game yet. Hoping that this year they find their savior... but that rarely happens (and is often unpredictable).

Most people buy lottery tickets, not because they think they'll win, but because it gives them an excuse to daydream about "what if". Then when they almost inevitably lose, they are sad and have less money. Rinse and repeat.

If they traded every single draft pick we have until 2030, but it resulted in playoffs nearly every year, winning records, and competing for WCF/Finals appearances (with an actual chance) for the next 7 years SIGN ME UP!

For too long we've been programmed to hold onto the hope of some kid coming out of college to somehow carry an entire franchise into relevancy. That time is over, right NOW is the time to say f*ck the lottery and build a legit team around what we have.

The top picks we've ever had are still on the roster, one is in his prime years (on a long contract) and the other is on the verge of becoming an all-nba superstar... f*ck the draft.

That being said, our NEW FO has a great track record of getting great value at the places they make selections (they drafted 3 of the starters on the #1 team in the west, the highest of those picks being #7, and a multiple MVP in his prime in the 2nd round).

Which is why to me, the draft will be more interesting, because it's not super expensive rookies that we expect to not play like rookies (or take time to develop). It's about finding undervalued diamonds, on good contracts, and developing them into solid rotational players that give you more production than they cost.

The Wolves are not a free agent destination (though when they do start competing at a higher level, we will get access to more of those vets that want to win over money), but the way you counter that isn't by lottery tickets and hoping for franchise saviors (WE ALREADY HAVE THOSE). Now the value of the draft is in getting the most for your money (which is often not the case at the top of the draft) by drafting good players on decent contracts and developing them (getting on court production and building them into an asset that can be used if needed in the future).

[urinesane]

I wouldn't say the two situations are completely different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the Wolves made the Gobert trade, Connelly and owners, not just fans, had visions of making it out of the first round. Why else was he brought in when the previous year's team made the playoffs? And clearly, despite Budenholzer's win percentage and championship two years ago, Milwaukee's brass had just as high, and more likely higher, expectations.

Finch had input into the revamp. All parties must have discussed a timeframe for integrating Gobert, whether that's adjusting to his style or him adapting to the Wolves. And based on an article around the mid-point of the season, it was taking longer than everyone expected.

Think about this for a second. From the post-season presser/interview, Finch admitted he will have to change things. Why couldn't a new coach come in when said change will occur?

Yes, they had visions. Those visions did not include the following assumptions:

1.) Gobert would come into training camp hurt (and not really be able to take part).
2.) KAT would get an illness, lose a bunch of weight, and come into training camp not able to take part (at least not fully).
3.) DLo would refuse to adapt and use the Gobert lob threat to open up his own game (and actually pass it to Gobert).
4.) KAT would miss 52 games with a significant injury after 21 games (or whatever the number was).
5.) It would take players/coaches long to adjust to Gobert and his style of play (even though from all accounts of former Gobert teammates it usually took a season to adapt to him, even for someone as adaptable as Conley)

This is where I’m at too, and I’m comfortable with that opinion.

I don’t like Tighe’s poker analogy. Yes, a big bet was made, but in poker, there is no risk that you suddenly won’t get to use your second card, or that cards 1-5 is a straight in some circumstances, but not in others.

This is what I see here. Basketball is a game set in reality, and real things happened. I can’t endorse a position of, “We expected second round, I don’t care what circumstances arose, I didn’t get what I wanted, so the trade is a failure.” The thing that gives me hope is that those events are very unlikely to occur next season, and I think we saw the floor of what this team can be, I want to see what the ceiling is.

Yeah, he got too into the weeds on the poker analogy, which I think was originally just brought up to argue against the idea that the Gobert trade was somehow an "all-in" move (when it by all definitions wasn't).

[Dewey]

First, how do you value mid-late 1st-round picks? Second, how big of a fan were you of the players we traded? This is a total mixed bag and not worth arguing IMO because everyone has a different view.

It’s a world of the willing and able… The key issues here were driven by a pure lack of Leadership. Yes, your veterans (as a trio) were clearly able, but they proved unwilling to put the Timberwolves ahead of …

1. DLo
2. KAT
3. Gobert

Done.

[younggunsmn]

I was just about to say the same thing. We often hear the “oh but MIN gave up too many draft picks!” .. and that’s 100% true. However, we have had 33 seasons worth of draft picks .. sometimes more than one, and usually better picks in the lottery .. and with 33 picks, we’ve made it to the second round ONCE.

Now, whatever answer people give to this is fine .. it’s their opinion. But for me, getting to the second round twice would make this the most successful playoff team in Wolves history, and I believe that this group, if they use Gobert well, has a chance to do even better.

We don't judge this trade against 33 years of failure.
We judge it against the contracts and assets we held on July 5th 2022 before we made the trade and the 46 wins we had the year prior.
And the window should be the 4 years Rudy Gobert had remaining on his contract at that point.
That doesn't change if or until Gobert is again traded.

So to me, the trade would only be acceptable with either one championship or 2 finals appearances over the next 3 years, since year one was a clear failure. And even then I would harbor doubts about what could have been long term.
Because we are going to still be paying the price for this trade for 3 years after that initial 4 year window.

These are the assets we held at the time:
C: KAT, Kessler, NAZ, Knight
PF: Vanderbilt, Anderson, Minott
SF: McDaniels, Prince, Moore
SG: Edwards, Beasley, Nowell
PG: Russell, Beverly, McLaughlin, Bolmaro

1st round Draft Picks:
2023(16th overall)
2024
2025
2026
2027
2028
2029

Take All of those things highlighted in pink (plus the swap in green), along with the opportunity cost of everything they could provide either on the court or in trade, weighed against the impact of Rudy Gobert this season and over the next 3 years.

4 years of Walkers Kessler dirt cheap plus a potential rookie extension alone is enough to make me regret it already.

So one title or 2 finals appearances to even be neutral for me.
Because I think the players and assets we had on July 5th 2022 would have easily gotten us to the 2nd round a couple of times over the following 4 years with even conservative management.

So tough watching Jarred Vanderbilt chase around Ja Morant and Steph Curry in the playoffs plus he's locked up next year for 4 million. Guys don't have to be stars or even great on both ends of the floor if they know their role and are really really good at it and not making a ton of money.
And we knew that about him and threw him in anyway.
Where was the 1st round pick we didn't have to give up to include him?

Why do you follow this team if your margin for happiness is so incredibly small?

Seriously, if the only way you will be "neutral" is if they win a championship or appear in multiple championships... just save that time in your life and get a new hobby, this clearly makes you miserable.

You are upset that we gave up assets that in your estimate would be a 2nd round contender for years and have now somehow turned that into expecting championship appearances or a win in the next 3 seasons?

I started this thread partially because I had a theory that a good amount of Wolves fans want to be miserable. They forget the past and move the goal posts just far enough to justify their misery.

You should step away from this and work on being happier in your personal life, this is not healthy for you.

I'm being serious, this isn't just some internet snark. We have so little time on this Earth, spend your time doing things you enjoy. This is clearly not one of them.

I have more love and joy in my life than any man deserves in one lifetime.
Stop projecting your own insecurities onto me.
That you feel the need to levy this kind of very personal attack against someone who doesn't share your opinion on your basketball team says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.

Posting here isn't especially helpful or productive to anyone's personal life but we do it because of our shared love for the sport and the teams we follow.
That means being happy when they win and sad when they lose.
It means being glad when they do smart things and angry when they do dumb things.
And the whole point of this site ("realGM") is armchair quarterbacking what your team does.

Urine sane, please put me on ignore and cease and desist from replying to ANY of my posts.
When you first started posting here I gave you the benefit of the doubt even though you were a kfan board troll with a stupid username. I'm a big boy but I don't think the mods should tolerate the kind of crap I have underlined in your post.
It's called concern trolling.

You are also engaging in something called toxic positivity.
I pointed this out and posted a link a while back and it really seemed to raise the level of discourse here for a while:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/toxic-positivity
Take a look you may learn something.
It's when people lash out because they can't handle negativity.

So by your own admission you posted a poll to bait out opinions you don't like so you could attack them?
That is pretty textbook trolling. Mods, is this the kind of discourse we strive for here?

I think I pretty eloquently and dispassionately framed the question with the first part of my post.
What does it take to make all the things I highlighted in pink and green worth 4 years of Rudy Gobert?

If you go by recent history, all the teams that have sent out this level of trade capital expected at minimum finals appearances.
Anthony Davis to the Lakers (title)
Jrue Holiday to the Bucks (title)
Kevin Durant to the Suns (TBD).
PG13 to the Clips (which brought Kawaii Leonard there).
Those teams were expecting to fight for titles when they made those trades.
They weren't looking to make it to the 2nd round.

If you are making the argument that those players and/or teams are better, and we should have lower expectations, you are also making the argument that we should not have made the trade, or at a bare minimum grossly overpaid.
Because we gave up very similar trade capital.

All of those first round picks we traded away have up to 9 years of team control.
McDaniels was pick 28 and Kessler pick 22.
Our 2 young cornerstones are 21 and 22 years old, and the Gobert trade crippled our ability to add players in their age window over the coming 7 years.

I will be beyond happy if we make it to the WCF next year,
But our floor for expectations for this team pre-trade was minimum one or 2 2nd round appearances in the next 4 years.

If we go further, it will also be in spite of Gobert's many shortcomings and drag on the offense.
We went from a top 10 offense to bottom 10, and it didn't get any better with a healthy KAT,
even with career shooting years from D-Lo and Conley.

This trade this big will always be a game of WHAT IF.
Every draft that goes by will add to that as hypotheticals become realities.
What would 25 year old Ant look like with 25 year old Kessler and 26 year old Jaden?
No matter how far we go, how much of that is really because of Gobert and how much because of the growth and improvement of other players?
I don't like these questions and uncertainties.

We've spent 2 decades now with basically nothing but hope for the future to cling to,
and trading away so many future draft picks brings with it a tremendous amount of unease.

Setting expectations for the present feels like walking on shifting sands.

[Folklore]

I have no idea why I'm even reading this. The old Simpson gif of grandpa walking in and out of the room would fit this.

urinesane has to be the most hard headed poster in here. He won't change his views and when his points get dismantled he starts to call people names and catch phrases like other groups who refuse to listen to reason. Rudy is a bad fit period. He gets in the way of our top player.
Our top player has said that nobody is scared of Rudy. Any has even co-signed other people complaining about the trade. Rudy's personal numbers don't matter to his fit with the team. His trade here has made further future movies limited.
If trading a new car for an old 220k mile mustang and thinking that the new car will last longer and be more dependable is correct thinking. Saying that the old car still has life is true, but it will shut down soon and is not worth paying the extra money to keep it on the road. Cultists will try to convince ppl that the new car couldn't possibly hold up just because it's been driving incredibly well for a year.

The only way this trade works is if we get a player or players who are more valuable than the players and picks we gave up.
Or, we win multiple championships despite Rudy's bad fit. Anything less is a failure.

[Note30]

We don't judge this trade against 33 years of failure.
We judge it against the contracts and assets we held on July 5th 2022 before we made the trade and the 46 wins we had the year prior.
And the window should be the 4 years Rudy Gobert had remaining on his contract at that point.
That doesn't change if or until Gobert is again traded.

So to me, the trade would only be acceptable with either one championship or 2 finals appearances over the next 3 years, since year one was a clear failure. And even then I would harbor doubts about what could have been long term.
Because we are going to still be paying the price for this trade for 3 years after that initial 4 year window.

These are the assets we held at the time:
C: KAT, Kessler, NAZ, Knight
PF: Vanderbilt, Anderson, Minott
SF: McDaniels, Prince, Moore
SG: Edwards, Beasley, Nowell
PG: Russell, Beverly, McLaughlin, Bolmaro

1st round Draft Picks:
2023(16th overall)
2024
2025
2026
2027
2028
2029

Take All of those things highlighted in pink (plus the swap in green), along with the opportunity cost of everything they could provide either on the court or in trade, weighed against the impact of Rudy Gobert this season and over the next 3 years.

4 years of Walkers Kessler dirt cheap plus a potential rookie extension alone is enough to make me regret it already.

So one title or 2 finals appearances to even be neutral for me.
Because I think the players and assets we had on July 5th 2022 would have easily gotten us to the 2nd round a couple of times over the following 4 years with even conservative management.

So tough watching Jarred Vanderbilt chase around Ja Morant and Steph Curry in the playoffs plus he's locked up next year for 4 million. Guys don't have to be stars or even great on both ends of the floor if they know their role and are really really good at it and not making a ton of money.
And we knew that about him and threw him in anyway.
Where was the 1st round pick we didn't have to give up to include him?

Why do you follow this team if your margin for happiness is so incredibly small?

Seriously, if the only way you will be "neutral" is if they win a championship or appear in multiple championships... just save that time in your life and get a new hobby, this clearly makes you miserable.

You are upset that we gave up assets that in your estimate would be a 2nd round contender for years and have now somehow turned that into expecting championship appearances or a win in the next 3 seasons?

I started this thread partially because I had a theory that a good amount of Wolves fans want to be miserable. They forget the past and move the goal posts just far enough to justify their misery.

You should step away from this and work on being happier in your personal life, this is not healthy for you.

I'm being serious, this isn't just some internet snark. We have so little time on this Earth, spend your time doing things you enjoy. This is clearly not one of them.

I have more love and joy in my life than any man deserves in one lifetime.
Stop projecting your own insecurities onto me.
That you feel the need to levy this kind of very personal attack against someone who doesn't share your opinion on your basketball team says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.

Posting here isn't especially helpful or productive to anyone's personal life but we do it because of our shared love for the sport and the teams we follow.
That means being happy when they win and sad when they lose.
It means being glad when they do smart things and angry when they do dumb things.
And the whole point of this site ("realGM") is armchair quarterbacking what your team does.

Urine sane, please put me on ignore and cease and desist from replying to ANY of my posts.
When you first started posting here I gave you the benefit of the doubt even though you were a kfan board troll with a stupid username. I'm a big boy but I don't think the mods should tolerate the kind of crap I have underlined in your post.
It's called concern trolling.

You are also engaging in something called toxic positivity.
I pointed this out and posted a link a while back and it really seemed to raise the level of discourse here for a while:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/toxic-positivity
Take a look you may learn something.
It's when people lash out because they can't handle negativity.

So by your own admission you posted a poll to bait out opinions you don't like so you could attack them?
That is pretty textbook trolling. Mods, is this the kind of discourse we strive for here?

I think I pretty eloquently and dispassionately framed the question with the first part of my post.
What does it take to make all the things I highlighted in pink and green worth 4 years of Rudy Gobert?

If you go by recent history, all the teams that have sent out this level of trade capital expected at minimum finals appearances.
Anthony Davis to the Lakers (title)
Jrue Holiday to the Bucks (title)
Kevin Durant to the Suns (TBD).
PG13 to the Clips (which brought Kawaii Leonard there).
Those teams were expecting to fight for titles when they made those trades.
They weren't looking to make it to the 2nd round.

If you are making the argument that those players and/or teams are better, and we should have lower expectations, you are also making the argument that we should not have made the trade, or at a bare minimum grossly overpaid.
Because we gave up very similar trade capital.

All of those first round picks we traded away have up to 9 years of team control.
McDaniels was pick 28 and Kessler pick 22.
Our 2 young cornerstones are 21 and 22 years old, and the Gobert trade crippled our ability to add players in their age window over the coming 7 years.

I will be beyond happy if we make it to the WCF next year,
But our floor for expectations for this team pre-trade was minimum one or 2 2nd round appearances in the next 4 years.

If we go further, it will also be in spite of Gobert's many shortcomings and drag on the offense.
We went from a top 10 offense to bottom 10, and it didn't get any better with a healthy KAT,
even with career shooting years from D-Lo and Conley.

This trade this big will always be a game of WHAT IF.
Every draft that goes by will add to that as hypotheticals become realities.
What would 25 year old Ant look like with 25 year old Kessler and 26 year old Jaden?
No matter how far we go, how much of that is really because of Gobert and how much because of the growth and improvement of other players?
I don't like these questions and uncertainties.

We've spent 2 decades now with basically nothing but hope for the future to cling to,
and trading away so many future draft picks brings with it a tremendous amount of unease.

Setting expectations for the present feels like walking on shifting sands.

Thank you man, I feel like I've been batting ping pong on this for like, well a year.

[TimberKat]

I have no idea why I'm even reading this. The old Simpson gif of grandpa walking in and out of the room would fit this.

Rudy is a bad fit period. He gets in the way of our top player.

Our top player has said that nobody is scared of Rudy. Any has even co-signed other people complaining about the trade. Rudy's personal numbers don't matter to his fit with the team. His trade here has made further future movies limited.

You have some good points about respect other's opinion, be open minded, don't be like a cultists. Doesn't it saying "Rudy is a bad fit period" fall into the same fallacies? Is "Our top payer has said that noboday is scared of Rudy" a little out of context for proof of Gobert's ability or fit? Isn't that a believe and not a fact?

If you are the team's best player, aren't you supposed to make everyone around you better? I just watched the PHX vs DEN game, I see KD and Booker pass out of double teams. I don't see Ayton in their way. I see Murry make cuts and pass to Jokic. Why can't I expect Ant , our best player, to be able to do some of those things? If he can't then should we really build a team around him?

I really should ask Gobert to pay me for making these posts

[urinesane]

First, how do you value mid-late 1st-round picks? Second, how big of a fan were you of the players we traded? This is a total mixed bag and not worth arguing IMO because everyone has a different view.

Their value is based on who is picking and what year it is.

If it was us in the past, nearly every pick outside of #1 was a wasted pick (or didn't lead to sustained winning).