OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[Dr Positivity]

They played well for most of that game and were GREAT in the 3rd but were absolutely terrible handling Florida forecheck for like 10 minutes in the second leading the game to flip. Bob was excellent and it just wasn't Leafs night in terms of finishing plays. Playing Lilegren may have been a mistake, I've yet to see in the playoffs where his offense is making up for it, give me the 31 year old Gustafsson in there. I don't think the series is over especially with the amount of Leafs fans who will be in Florida.

[YogurtProducer]

Once a team has a lead there is no pressure for them to continue scoring, they can sit on the lead and emphasize defence. Get in trouble in your own end? Ice the puck, win the face off, easy out. The other team then needs to take greater and greater risks to get an equalizer, which compromises their own defence and gives better chances to the defending team. It's a simple game exploit. Try this in the NBA outside a comfortable lead in the last few minutes of the game and you will lose, it's just not a real strategy. It's worse in soccer but it's still a thing in hockey.

Game wins happen all the time in hockey to single fluke goals. How many times do you see a basketball team win a game because some player made a single miracle half court shot or circus shot that had a 1% chance of going in? Bascially never. But hockey teams win all the time on a goal that went in off some guy's skate, or there was a tiny gap under the goalie's stick that the puck just squeaked under unexpectedly, or the puck tumbled over the goalie's stick on a weird hop off the ice.

I mean you have just proven you fundamentally do not understand how hockey works over and over here.

Ice the puck, win the face off, easy out - icing the puck means you cannot line change but your opponent can. Playing defense and locking yourself into your zone is exhausting and is a surefire way to get scored on.

It's a move that works as a pressure release to buy time that costs a team very little. In the NBA the similar move is to foul, which usually costs the fouling team points. One sport punishes players heavily for such desperation plays and the other doesn't.

The other team then needs to take greater and greater risks to get an equalizer, which compromises their own defence and gives better chances to the defending team. - no one who is losing 0-1 is making huge risks as its a 1 goal game, not a 3 goal game. That is like saying you need to start shooting 3's and gambling on defense because you start up down 10-0.

As I've said, hockey and basketball are very different. In basketball you will lose if you stop trying to score at practically any point, that's not true of hockey where entire periods can go by with no scoring, it makes a defence first strategy possible.

Game wins happen all the time in hockey to single fluke goals. - again, "fluke" goals are often a result of relentless pressure, throwing shots into areas where friendly bounces are more likely, hard work in the forecheck, etc.

And yet there are plenty of examples of teams that win games on fluke goals when the other team outshot them by a wide margin. That's the problem that comes with a sport where scoring is rare, too many games decided by 1 goal and it magnifies the value of fluke goals.

But hockey teams win all the time on a goal that went in off some guy's skate, - so the player was in the right place in front of the net?

By contrast no NBA in existence has ever won by a basketball that accidentally hit a guy on the head and bounced in the net or something equally ridiculous. I guess you can't see the difference between a scoring play that was intended (shooting the puck at an uncovered part of the net) and a scoring play where the player just shot the puck at the goalie hoping for maybe a rebound to come to another player to get a real shot but it bounced strangely and dribbled in off the post or something. Seems like half the goals I see in the NHL is a variation of this.

or there was a tiny gap under the goalie's stick that the puck just squeaked under unexpectedly, - so the goalie not covering the net is a fluke?

Did the player actually intend to hit that tiny gap? Did he even know it was there? Or was it just luck, a completely random event? Imagine watching the NBA if players were typically shooting 1% from 3 point range and everyone took a lot of 3 pointers, that's the parallel.

or the puck tumbled over the goalie's stick on a weird hop off the ice. - how often does this happen?

Often enough to decide games, which hockey fans like you are totally fine with.

It is fine to not like hockey, but you are mistaking high variance for "fluke". Either way, the Stanley Cup champions are still heavily dominated by the top 3-4 seeds in each conference, no different than the NBA.

It's fine to not like people who don't like hockey, but I'd ask if you want to do that, go over to the Leafs board.

As long as you’re this close minded about hockey you’re never going to have a reasonable conversation.

I’m not even a big hockey fan for what it’s worth. I’ve watched maybe a dozen games all year (compared to
Like 75 raptors games + another 75 other NBA games).

But anyone who puts down other sports IMO is just closed minded. They’re not the same sport. It’s fine to like one more. But your arguments are just flawed and scream “I don’t watch hockey but I’m gonna act like the authority on the matter”. Your argument literally sounds like anti-nba fans going “no one plays defense in the nba”.

[ciueli]

I mean you have just proven you fundamentally do not understand how hockey works over and over here.

Ice the puck, win the face off, easy out - icing the puck means you cannot line change but your opponent can. Playing defense and locking yourself into your zone is exhausting and is a surefire way to get scored on.

It's a move that works as a pressure release to buy time that costs a team very little. In the NBA the similar move is to foul, which usually costs the fouling team points. One sport punishes players heavily for such desperation plays and the other doesn't.

The other team then needs to take greater and greater risks to get an equalizer, which compromises their own defence and gives better chances to the defending team. - no one who is losing 0-1 is making huge risks as its a 1 goal game, not a 3 goal game. That is like saying you need to start shooting 3's and gambling on defense because you start up down 10-0.

As I've said, hockey and basketball are very different. In basketball you will lose if you stop trying to score at practically any point, that's not true of hockey where entire periods can go by with no scoring, it makes a defence first strategy possible.

Game wins happen all the time in hockey to single fluke goals. - again, "fluke" goals are often a result of relentless pressure, throwing shots into areas where friendly bounces are more likely, hard work in the forecheck, etc.

And yet there are plenty of examples of teams that win games on fluke goals when the other team outshot them by a wide margin. That's the problem that comes with a sport where scoring is rare, too many games decided by 1 goal and it magnifies the value of fluke goals.

But hockey teams win all the time on a goal that went in off some guy's skate, - so the player was in the right place in front of the net?

By contrast no NBA in existence has ever won by a basketball that accidentally hit a guy on the head and bounced in the net or something equally ridiculous. I guess you can't see the difference between a scoring play that was intended (shooting the puck at an uncovered part of the net) and a scoring play where the player just shot the puck at the goalie hoping for maybe a rebound to come to another player to get a real shot but it bounced strangely and dribbled in off the post or something. Seems like half the goals I see in the NHL is a variation of this.

or there was a tiny gap under the goalie's stick that the puck just squeaked under unexpectedly, - so the goalie not covering the net is a fluke?

Did the player actually intend to hit that tiny gap? Did he even know it was there? Or was it just luck, a completely random event? Imagine watching the NBA if players were typically shooting 1% from 3 point range and everyone took a lot of 3 pointers, that's the parallel.

or the puck tumbled over the goalie's stick on a weird hop off the ice. - how often does this happen?

Often enough to decide games, which hockey fans like you are totally fine with.

It is fine to not like hockey, but you are mistaking high variance for "fluke". Either way, the Stanley Cup champions are still heavily dominated by the top 3-4 seeds in each conference, no different than the NBA.

It's fine to not like people who don't like hockey, but I'd ask if you want to do that, go over to the Leafs board.

As long as you’re this close minded about hockey you’re never going to have a reasonable conversation.

I’m not even a big hockey fan for what it’s worth. I’ve watched maybe a dozen games all year (compared to
Like 75 raptors games + another 75 other NBA games).

But anyone who puts down other sports IMO is just closed minded. They’re not the same sport. It’s fine to like one more. But your arguments are just flawed and scream “I don’t watch hockey but I’m gonna act like the authority on the matter”. Your argument literally sounds like anti-nba fans going “no one plays defense in the nba”.

If you want reasonable conversation, maybe best not to fill everything you post with insults against the person you're trying to have that conversation with. If you want to have a conversation with people who love hockey go over to the Leafs board, I'm not even sure why there is a thread on our Raptors board about hockey, you sure shouldn't be shocked that a basketball fan comes in and starts saying things you don't like about the game of hockey.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I already qualified injuries as a reason the better team might not win, though I wouldn't say Steph's knee sprain played a huge part in their loss, it's possible it was a factor. Most at the time said it was fatigue from a long season that finally caught up with Warriors, they played hard every game of the regular season to get to 73 wins and it's telling that in future seasons even when their team was more stacked with the addition of Durant they never won as many regular season games, they were more willing to rest players, win a few less games and focus on the playoffs. In any case, the playoffs in basketball is different as teams tighten their rotations, there are plenty of teams that win lots of games in the regular season against bad or mediocre teams but don't win the title in the playoffs. Personally I don't see LeBron/Irving/Love as a particularly worse top three than Curry/Klay/Dray.

Go count for me how many times a team with 16 or more wins has lost in the NBA playoffs

They had LeBron still at his peak and LeBron is a top 2 player All-Time. The previous season it actually looked like LeBron was going to beat the Warriors with Irving and Love out with injuries, it isn't the huge upset you're making it out to be.

How many times did peak LeBron defeat a team even 10 games better than any team he was on, in any playoff round? I'll wait for an actual answer instead of a dodge.

[ciueli]

Go count for me how many times a team with 16 or more wins has lost in the NBA playoffs

They had LeBron still at his peak and LeBron is a top 2 player All-Time. The previous season it actually looked like LeBron was going to beat the Warriors with Irving and Love out with injuries, it isn't the huge upset you're making it out to be.

How many times did peak LeBron defeat a team even 10 games better than any team he was on, in any playoff round? I'll wait for an actual answer instead of a dodge.

If you're trying to somehow prove that the sport of basketball is as random and luck based as hockey, you're very far afield. You talk about dodges? This whole "2016 Finals was a huge upset!" direction you've taken us is a gigantic one.

[C_Money]

Somebody explain to me what a forecheck is, lol.

[ATLTimekeeper]

They had LeBron still at his peak and LeBron is a top 2 player All-Time. The previous season it actually looked like LeBron was going to beat the Warriors with Irving and Love out with injuries, it isn't the huge upset you're making it out to be.

How many times did peak LeBron defeat a team even 10 games better than any team he was on, in any playoff round? I'll wait for an actual answer instead of a dodge.

If you're trying to somehow prove that the sport of basketball is as random and luck based as hockey, you're very far afield. You talk about dodges? This whole "2016 Finals was a huge upset!" direction you've taken us is a gigantic one.

I'm not proving that at all. You apparently aren't following the conversation. I'm pushing back against your nonsense, though. Can you answer the questions?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Somebody explain to me what a forecheck is, lol.

Trying to get the puck back when you're not in the defensive zone.

[ciueli]

How many times did peak LeBron defeat a team even 10 games better than any team he was on, in any playoff round? I'll wait for an actual answer instead of a dodge.

If you're trying to somehow prove that the sport of basketball is as random and luck based as hockey, you're very far afield. You talk about dodges? This whole "2016 Finals was a huge upset!" direction you've taken us is a gigantic one.

I'm not proving that at all. You apparently aren't following the conversation. I'm pushing back against your nonsense, though. Can you answer the questions?

So you have no point, so there's no point in continuing a conversation about nothing. Goodbye.

[KL78192020]

Leafs been whooped by the coach they fired lol.

[El Mas Chingon]

Somebody explain to me what a forecheck is, lol.

Think of it like a full court press.

Instead of setting up the defence, the team without the puck attacks the team with the puck. Basically trying to generate a mistake. It's very tiring and risky, and requires team discipline as well as buy in from the players.

[pingpongrac]

Leafs been whooped by the coach they fired lol.

That was 15 years ago and he has coached 4 teams since then lol.

[tms]

Don't know if you guys have talked about it yet but the media, if not the team itself, should be recalling Kawhi's attitude after the Raps lost the first two against the Bucks in the ECF. "Where do you go from here, Kawhi?!" "Umm... Toronto for Game 3." Have some fun with it. Take the edge off. Canadian sports media is such an anchor, man. I don't blame teams for gripping their sticks too tight or fading under the bright lights.... or for that matter not winning a Cup in 30 years. They're forced to take it way too seriously.

I tried listening to a TSN pod after Game 1 and couldn't get 5 minutes without turning it off. They were debating how Game 2 was a "must-win" and all kinds of other alarmist/paranoid nonsense as if their lives were at stake - their lives! There was almost no counterpoint or perspective, forget about humour. If I knew anybody like that in real life, I'd set up an intervention for them lol. The coverage was just sooo heavy, you'd think they were addicted to catastrophizing.

Sports are obvs important in the States too but not like that. Fans and media know they're not the ones actually playing and losing should never amount to an identity crisis. It's not just hockey anymore either, I sense the same vibe around the Raptors and Jays. Lighten up, enjoy the next game and cheer for your team as they try their best to get a W. Lol

[YogurtProducer]

It's a move that works as a pressure release to buy time that costs a team very little. In the NBA the similar move is to foul, which usually costs the fouling team points. One sport punishes players heavily for such desperation plays and the other doesn't.



As I've said, hockey and basketball are very different. In basketball you will lose if you stop trying to score at practically any point, that's not true of hockey where entire periods can go by with no scoring, it makes a defence first strategy possible.



And yet there are plenty of examples of teams that win games on fluke goals when the other team outshot them by a wide margin. That's the problem that comes with a sport where scoring is rare, too many games decided by 1 goal and it magnifies the value of fluke goals.



By contrast no NBA in existence has ever won by a basketball that accidentally hit a guy on the head and bounced in the net or something equally ridiculous. I guess you can't see the difference between a scoring play that was intended (shooting the puck at an uncovered part of the net) and a scoring play where the player just shot the puck at the goalie hoping for maybe a rebound to come to another player to get a real shot but it bounced strangely and dribbled in off the post or something. Seems like half the goals I see in the NHL is a variation of this.



Did the player actually intend to hit that tiny gap? Did he even know it was there? Or was it just luck, a completely random event? Imagine watching the NBA if players were typically shooting 1% from 3 point range and everyone took a lot of 3 pointers, that's the parallel.



Often enough to decide games, which hockey fans like you are totally fine with.



It's fine to not like people who don't like hockey, but I'd ask if you want to do that, go over to the Leafs board.

As long as you’re this close minded about hockey you’re never going to have a reasonable conversation.

I’m not even a big hockey fan for what it’s worth. I’ve watched maybe a dozen games all year (compared to
Like 75 raptors games + another 75 other NBA games).

But anyone who puts down other sports IMO is just closed minded. They’re not the same sport. It’s fine to like one more. But your arguments are just flawed and scream “I don’t watch hockey but I’m gonna act like the authority on the matter”. Your argument literally sounds like anti-nba fans going “no one plays defense in the nba”.

If you want reasonable conversation, maybe best not to fill everything you post with insults against the person you're trying to have that conversation with. If you want to have a conversation with people who love hockey go over to the Leafs board, I'm not even sure why there is a thread on our Raptors board about hockey, you sure shouldn't be shocked that a basketball fan comes in and starts saying things you don't like about the game of hockey.

Insults? Where was there an insult?

I’m a basketball fan first and foremost, doesn’t mean I need to **** on hockey for absolutely no reason. It’s a Toronto team playing when the raptors are out. I don’t know why you think it’s a big deal.

[canz55]

Knies news was really disappointing. You never want a young player to get hurt like that and potentially have it derail his career down the line.

How bad is his injury? Is he done for the series?

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[canz55]

For Leafs fans, where does this team go from here? At what point does it make more sense to blow it all up?

All the star players are young except for Tavares so blowing it up makes no sense at all (as frustrating as that sounds).

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[WaltFrazier]

We live in "the 6", old-timer.

It seems like road teams are doing well in these playoffs in the NBA as well. Home teams under more pressure these days? Is it a social media thing?

When I was young it was just T O

Hell, I remember "Hogtown". Because ...

Spoiler:

Let's put it this way. I saw (on TV) Sittler's 10-point game. I saw Ian Turnbull's 5-goal game. I saw the game the Leafs played with their names stitched on their blue jerseys ... in blue (because Ballard was the original troll).

But I can still be hep.

I hate to top you but I watched every game of the Leafs last Stanley Cup win on TV. Grade 8, all my friends were Leafs fans, I was a Habs fan, it was a sad time for me.

[Brinbe]

Knies news was really disappointing. You never want a young player to get hurt like that and potentially have it derail his career down the line.

How bad is his injury? Is he done for the series?

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got concussed. he's prob out for the series.

Read on Twitter

head injuries are the actual worst. especially for a hockey player. it's fked. i pray and hope he doesn't get lindros'd.

Read on Twitter

[Coco Costanza]

For Leafs fans, where does this team go from here? At what point does it make more sense to blow it all up?

All the star players are young except for Tavares so blowing it up makes no sense at all (as frustrating as that sounds).

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Yeah, that's what I figured. It's just, what else can they do to get themselves over the hump? If you have what it takes to win it all, but still fall short, what can you do? I guess they just keep running it back.

[canz55]

Knies news was really disappointing. You never want a young player to get hurt like that and potentially have it derail his career down the line.

How bad is his injury? Is he done for the series?

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got concussed. he's prob out for the series.

Read on Twitter

head injuries are the actual worst. especially for a hockey player. it's fked. i pray and hope he doesn't get lindros'd.

Read on Twitter

That totally sucks. Knies - at least for me - is the only real positive to take away from this post season assuming Leafs get dumped by the Panthers.

Maybe Sammy is the other positive and Nylander showing some great stuff in that third period the other night but that's it.

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