2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[Morse Code]

I think we should be trading up to get him. He should be part of an OG package.

Cam Whitemore reminds me of Miles Bridges. I would not trade OG for another Miles Bridges.

#1 wouldn't trade Wemby. I'd only trade OG for Scoot or Brandon Miller. So if a team didn't get the player they wanted and willing to trade #3, Id' think about it.

I'd trade Wemby. If OKC offfered you Jalen Williams and all their non OKC 1st round picks and swaps they have coming up... I would take that over Wemby.

Your opinions are forever invalidated

[Clutch0z24]

Can't win if you don't play. Your comprehension of probability isn't what you think it is.

Yeah exactly....The point of the lottery is to give yourself the best odds and you can't win the lottery if you don't play it or just be a mid team which is where no franchise wants to be at cause you have no shot at winning the lottery and your stuck being a meh team....Worst place to be in sports and we are in that spot atm...

And like i said even if you do not win the number 1 pick per say your giving yourself a better chance cause you would be like the 1-7 teams that could win it and also being a high lottery pick is not a bad thing as well cause like the draft where we got Barnes in we didn't win the lottery but we still got a really good prospect....If your not a title contender or a team that actually could make a run you want to be at least bringing in a few of the really good prospects in

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players now days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years and that Kawhi trade has its flaws.

[Kevin Willis]

Some of the top NCAA prospects ranked by stocks (blocks+steals) per game this year:

Jackson-Davis: 3.7
Lively: 2.9
Black: 2.7
Kalkbrenner: 2.7
Hendricks: 2.6
Wallace: 2.5
Podziemski: 2.3
Bona: 2.3
Edey: 2.3
J Walker: 2.3
Beekman: 2.3
Murray: 2.2
Jaquez Jr.: 2.1
Bufkin: 2.0
C Jones: 1.9
K Brown: 1.9

Bilal (All games): 2.1
Rupert (All games): 0.9
Cissoko: 2.2
Miller: 1.8
VW: (All games): 3.84
Nnaji (All games): 0.67
Henderson: 1.53
Amen: 3.2
Ausar: 3.5

These need to be adjusted for minutes to be easily comparable.

I know, I know. Nnaji barely plays. Don't feel like doing it though but at a high level. Bilal, Rupert are around 20 min. Cissoko, VW, Miller, Henderson are around 30 min. Nnaji less than 10 min. Amen, Ausur play against kids as 20 year olds so I would deduct at least 1 right off the bat if you want to compare with the others.

Note: when Bilal gets around 30 min he's close to 3.75.

[OakleyDokely]

Yeah exactly....The point of the lottery is to give yourself the best odds and you can't win the lottery if you don't play it or just be a mid team which is where no franchise wants to be at cause you have no shot at winning the lottery and your stuck being a meh team....Worst place to be in sports and we are in that spot atm...

And like i said even if you do not win the number 1 pick per say your giving yourself a better chance cause you would be like the 1-7 teams that could win it and also being a high lottery pick is not a bad thing as well cause like the draft where we got Barnes in we didn't win the lottery but we still got a really good prospect....If your not a title contender or a team that actually could make a run you want to be at least bringing in a few of the really good prospects in

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

[Clutch0z24]

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Don't need to go back that many years....Every team builds in different ways but yes the core of the GSW is through the draft...7th in the draft is still a high pick btw lol...

Most teams that are winners in todays NBA are teams where superstars want to be at first of all and they just demand to get traded there or sign with them in free agency....2 things we lack as a franchise and 2 things i do not see us ever doing...

So if we have low odds of star players demanding a trade to the Raptors and low odds of getting star players in free agency....Than in my head the best route is trying to get the higher draft picks in the draft for a bit till we regain or get a top player to build around....Cause without a proper player to build around your going no where....

How do most teams find that player to build around....Through the draft more than likely cause alot of teams also do not get handed these star players...

Building through the draft with 13-60 ish draft picks is alot difficult to do than trying to get higher picks so you can get players like Barnes types who can actually be good prospects for you.

[Clutch0z24]

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Btw answer this in honesty...How do you think or which is the easier path for the Raptors get their star/franchise player to build around...Not a fake one like Siakam btw....I mean a legit player to build around.....Through a trade (Which comes like every 5 years or so where you have to outbid 29 other teams, and in the last 5 or so years players now get to demand where they wanna go in a trade) , Through free agency (Where we never had 1 great free agent star sign here), Or through the draft where everyone with high lottery odds has a chance to move up or at least get a good pick...And then all you have to do is draft right...

Id say draft for us is the more logical way to go but give me a reason to believe the other route is more logical and ill listen.

[OakleyDokely]

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Don't need to go back that many years....Every team builds in different ways but yes the core of the GSW is through the draft...7th in the draft is still a high pick btw lol...

Most teams that are winners in todays NBA are teams where superstars want to be at first of all and they just demand to get traded there or sign with them in free agency....2 things we lack as a franchise and 2 things i do not see us ever doing...

So if we have low odds of star players demanding a trade to the Raptors and low odds of getting star players in free agency....Than in my head the best route is trying to get the higher draft picks in the draft for a bit till we regain or get a top player to build around....Cause without a proper player to build around your going no where....

How do most teams find that player to build around....Through the draft more than likely cause alot of teams also do not get handed these star players...

Building through the draft with 13-60 ish draft picks is alot difficult to do than trying to get higher picks so you can get players like Barnes types who can actually be good prospects for you.

Everyone agrees that you need stars to win, but how you acquire them isn't as straightforward as you're making it seem. Some are acquired via free agency, some through trade, some with mid-late picks, some with high picks. The best managed teams are able to acquire great players using these different routes, as recent champions, including the Raps have done.

Last 10 finals MVP's and how they were acquired:

Lebron MIA - Free Agent
Kawhi SA - 15th overall pick by own team
Igoudala GS - Free Agent
Lebron CLE - Free Agent
Durant GS - Free Agent
Durant GS - Free Agent
Kawhi TOR - Trade
Lebron LAL - Free Agent
Giannis MIL - 15th overall pick by own team
Curry GS- 7th overall pick by own team


Where are all these tanking teams with the top picks at?

[Clutch0z24]

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Don't need to go back that many years....Every team builds in different ways but yes the core of the GSW is through the draft...7th in the draft is still a high pick btw lol...

Most teams that are winners in todays NBA are teams where superstars want to be at first of all and they just demand to get traded there or sign with them in free agency....2 things we lack as a franchise and 2 things i do not see us ever doing...

So if we have low odds of star players demanding a trade to the Raptors and low odds of getting star players in free agency....Than in my head the best route is trying to get the higher draft picks in the draft for a bit till we regain or get a top player to build around....Cause without a proper player to build around your going no where....

How do most teams find that player to build around....Through the draft more than likely cause alot of teams also do not get handed these star players...

Building through the draft with 13-60 ish draft picks is alot difficult to do than trying to get higher picks so you can get players like Barnes types who can actually be good prospects for you.

Everyone agrees that you need stars to win, but how you acquire them isn't as straightforward as you're making it seem. Some are acquired via free agency, some through trade, some with mid-late picks, some with high picks. The best managed teams are able to acquire great players using these different routes, as recent champions, including the Raps have done.

Last 10 finals MVP's and how they were acquired:

Lebron - Free Agent
Kawhi - 15th overall pick by own team
Igoudala - Free Agent
Lebron - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Kawhi: Trade
Lebron: Free Agent
Giannis: 15th overall pick by own team
Curry: 7th overall pick by own team


Where are all these tanking teams with the top picks at?

Lol this list is also biased and flawed....Just cause they are the Finals MVP you cannot ignore the way they got there....And the point im making about us as the Raptors as a team...

You can't just point out the Finals MVP and ignore the teams they have as a whole and use that as an argument lol....

All them teams are built through free agent or demanding a trade to certain teams to make a super team.....That is my point and since WE the Raptors are not a free agent destination or a team that superstar players want to play in since they would rather go to the Miami, Lakers Type teams we do not have that luxury of sitting around waiting for players to sign here...

We have to find a star/franchise player someway and imo the best way for US is through the draft cause it makes the most sense logically...

[OakleyDokely]

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Btw answer this in honesty...How do you think or which is the easier path for the Raptors get their star/franchise player to build around...Not a fake one like Siakam btw....I mean a legit player to build around.....Through a trade (Which comes like every 5 years or so where you have to outbid 29 other teams, and in the last 5 or so years players now get to demand where they wanna go in a trade) , Through free agency (Where we never had 1 great free agent star sign here), Or through the draft where everyone with high lottery odds has a chance to move up or at least get a good pick...And then all you have to do is draft right...

Id say draft for us is the more logical way to go but give me a reason to believe the other route is more logical and ill listen.

Draft or trade is the most logical and realistic for the Raptors.

[OakleyDokely]

Don't need to go back that many years....Every team builds in different ways but yes the core of the GSW is through the draft...7th in the draft is still a high pick btw lol...

Most teams that are winners in todays NBA are teams where superstars want to be at first of all and they just demand to get traded there or sign with them in free agency....2 things we lack as a franchise and 2 things i do not see us ever doing...

So if we have low odds of star players demanding a trade to the Raptors and low odds of getting star players in free agency....Than in my head the best route is trying to get the higher draft picks in the draft for a bit till we regain or get a top player to build around....Cause without a proper player to build around your going no where....

How do most teams find that player to build around....Through the draft more than likely cause alot of teams also do not get handed these star players...

Building through the draft with 13-60 ish draft picks is alot difficult to do than trying to get higher picks so you can get players like Barnes types who can actually be good prospects for you.

Everyone agrees that you need stars to win, but how you acquire them isn't as straightforward as you're making it seem. Some are acquired via free agency, some through trade, some with mid-late picks, some with high picks. The best managed teams are able to acquire great players using these different routes, as recent champions, including the Raps have done.

Last 10 finals MVP's and how they were acquired:

Lebron - Free Agent
Kawhi - 15th overall pick by own team
Igoudala - Free Agent
Lebron - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Kawhi: Trade
Lebron: Free Agent
Giannis: 15th overall pick by own team
Curry: 7th overall pick by own team


Where are all these tanking teams with the top picks at?

Lol this list is also biased and flawed....Just cause they are the Finals MVP you cannot ignore the way they got there....And the point im making about us as the Raptors as a team...

You can't just point out the Finals MVP and ignore the teams they have as a whole and use that as an argument lol....

All them teams are built through free agent or demanding a trade to certain teams to make a super team.....That is my point and since WE the Raptors are not a free agent destination or a team that superstar players want to play in since they would rather go to the Miami, Lakers Type teams we do not have that luxury of sitting around waiting for players to sign here...

We have to find a star/franchise player someway and imo the best way for US is through the draft cause it makes the most sense logically...

Draft is very important as teams like SA, PHX, MIL, DEN, GS etc have shown us. They got legit stars with mid lottery picks all the way to the 2nd round.

[Jadoogar]

Can't win if you don't play. Your comprehension of probability isn't what you think it is.

Yeah exactly....The point of the lottery is to give yourself the best odds and you can't win the lottery if you don't play it or just be a mid team which is where no franchise wants to be at cause you have no shot at winning the lottery and your stuck being a meh team....Worst place to be in sports and we are in that spot atm...

And like i said even if you do not win the number 1 pick per say your giving yourself a better chance cause you would be like the 1-7 teams that could win it and also being a high lottery pick is not a bad thing as well cause like the draft where we got Barnes in we didn't win the lottery but we still got a really good prospect....If your not a title contender or a team that actually could make a run you want to be at least bringing in a few of the really good prospects in

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

You're using 2 extreme examples. Booker was a 6th man in college and 3 other players from his own college team were selected ahead of him in the draft.

If your strategy is to draft a 2 time MVP in the second round, all power to you but it's doesn't seem exactly repeatable.

What about the tons of other teams that draft no bodies with picks in the teens? Even a well run team like the Celtics failed to draft meaningful rotation players with their later picks.

[Clutch0z24]

Everyone agrees that you need stars to win, but how you acquire them isn't as straightforward as you're making it seem. Some are acquired via free agency, some through trade, some with mid-late picks, some with high picks. The best managed teams are able to acquire great players using these different routes, as recent champions, including the Raps have done.

Last 10 finals MVP's and how they were acquired:

Lebron - Free Agent
Kawhi - 15th overall pick by own team
Igoudala - Free Agent
Lebron - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Durant - Free Agent
Kawhi: Trade
Lebron: Free Agent
Giannis: 15th overall pick by own team
Curry: 7th overall pick by own team


Where are all these tanking teams with the top picks at?

Lol this list is also biased and flawed....Just cause they are the Finals MVP you cannot ignore the way they got there....And the point im making about us as the Raptors as a team...

You can't just point out the Finals MVP and ignore the teams they have as a whole and use that as an argument lol....

All them teams are built through free agent or demanding a trade to certain teams to make a super team.....That is my point and since WE the Raptors are not a free agent destination or a team that superstar players want to play in since they would rather go to the Miami, Lakers Type teams we do not have that luxury of sitting around waiting for players to sign here...

We have to find a star/franchise player someway and imo the best way for US is through the draft cause it makes the most sense logically...

SA, PHX, MIL, DEN, GS etc all seemed to find stars without tanking.

SA tanked for Tim Duncan without Tim Duncan they do not win as many titles...Hes one of the greatest Big men to ever play....

Phx got CP3 who is a star who wanted to be there ,KD also demanded a trade there (Not gonna happen for us)

GSW the year they got Curry they been bad for years and basically have been tanking by putting together bad teams and got lucky at 7...(7TH is a good draft pick)

Denver and Mil out of the teams you listed are the 2 that i can see your point but Murray was also a high draft pick....Joker and Giannis are legit franchise players found outside of the lottery....But like i said thats alot rare to find than finding in the top 1-7 Picks....But yes Trades could be good for the Raptors but we are not getting a superstar/franchise player like Kawhi again in a trade....Maybe a DeJounte Murray type....But not a legit top 5 player in a trade ....Won't happen for the Raptors ever again

[OakleyDokely]

Yeah exactly....The point of the lottery is to give yourself the best odds and you can't win the lottery if you don't play it or just be a mid team which is where no franchise wants to be at cause you have no shot at winning the lottery and your stuck being a meh team....Worst place to be in sports and we are in that spot atm...

And like i said even if you do not win the number 1 pick per say your giving yourself a better chance cause you would be like the 1-7 teams that could win it and also being a high lottery pick is not a bad thing as well cause like the draft where we got Barnes in we didn't win the lottery but we still got a really good prospect....If your not a title contender or a team that actually could make a run you want to be at least bringing in a few of the really good prospects in

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

You're using 2 extreme examples. Booker was a 6th man in college and 3 other players from his own college team were selected ahead of him in the draft.

If your strategy is to draft a 2 time MVP in the second round, all power to you but it's doesn't seem exactly repeatable.

What about the tons of other teams that draft no bodies with picks in the teens? Even a well run team like the Celtics failed to draft meaningful rotation players with their later picks.

Real world examples suggest that top tier stars are typically acquired via trade / free agency like KD and Lebron. These guys got tired of waiting around for their teams to build a winner and just left. Then you have guys like Giannis, Kawhi, Curry who were drafted a little later in the draft into organizations that weren't tire fires.

This idea that you get top picks and then win titles literally never happens.

[Jadoogar]

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

You're using 2 extreme examples. Booker was a 6th man in college and 3 other players from his own college team were selected ahead of him in the draft.

If your strategy is to draft a 2 time MVP in the second round, all power to you but it's doesn't seem exactly repeatable.

What about the tons of other teams that draft no bodies with picks in the teens? Even a well run team like the Celtics failed to draft meaningful rotation players with their later picks.

Real world examples suggest that top tier stars are typically acquired via trade / free agency like KD and Lebron. These guys got tired of waiting around for their teams to build a winner and just left. Then you have guys like Giannis, Kawhi, Curry who were drafted a little later in the draft into organizations that weren't tire fires.

This idea that you get top picks and then win titles literally never happens.

Most trades required high level picks or high level prospects. How do you get high level prospects? Generally higher up in the draft.
I'm not saying it's impossible that we draft a star at 13, i'm just telling you guys to temper expectations because the success rate of picks this late isn't very high.

I would also advise against just falling in love with someone's upside. It's very unlikely that a prospect reaches his 90th percentile outcome. I would tend to favor someone with a higher floor who we are sure can been a rotation player rather some someone who has a 5% chance of becoming and all star if everything goes perfectly.

[OakleyDokely]

Lol this list is also biased and flawed....Just cause they are the Finals MVP you cannot ignore the way they got there....And the point im making about us as the Raptors as a team...

You can't just point out the Finals MVP and ignore the teams they have as a whole and use that as an argument lol....

All them teams are built through free agent or demanding a trade to certain teams to make a super team.....That is my point and since WE the Raptors are not a free agent destination or a team that superstar players want to play in since they would rather go to the Miami, Lakers Type teams we do not have that luxury of sitting around waiting for players to sign here...

We have to find a star/franchise player someway and imo the best way for US is through the draft cause it makes the most sense logically...

SA, PHX, MIL, DEN, GS etc all seemed to find stars without tanking.

SA tanked for Tim Duncan without Tim Duncan they do not win as many titles...Hes one of the greatest Big men to ever play....

Phx got CP3 who is a star who wanted to be there ,KD also demanded a trade there (Not gonna happen for us)

GSW the year they got Curry they been bad for years and basically have been tanking by putting together bad teams and got lucky at 7...(7TH is a good draft pick)

Denver and Mil out of the teams you listed are the 2 that i can see your point but Murray was also a high draft pick....Joker and Giannis are legit franchise players found outside of the lottery....But like i said thats alot rare to find than finding in the top 1-7 Picks....But yes Trades could be good for the Raptors but we are not getting a superstar/franchise player like Kawhi again in a trade....Maybe a DeJounte Murray type....But not a legit top 5 player in a trade ....Won't happen for the Raptors ever again

Jokic at #41
Draymond at #35
Butler at #30
Giannis at #15
Kawhi at #15
Booker at #13
Mitchell at #13
Haliburton #12
Klay at #11
George at #10
Curry at #7
etc

It's very possible to add elite talent later in the draft. Very rarely is all the top talent concentrated at the very top. The smart organizations can find it.

[Yallbecrazy]

Lol and you can point out countless teams who have drafted with high picks who won....Suns never won a title with Booker though?....KD Demanded a trade to the Suns ....It will be hard for any superstar to demand a trade here since it never happened...

Spurs with Tim Duncan, Lakers With Magic, Celtics with Bird, Bulls with MJ, Celtics rn with Tatum/Brown, Rockets with Hakeem, GSW With Curry/Klay.

Teams can win with higher draft picks since they will get better players into their system...

Sadly the way your painting it is like we have this magic ability to make these crazy over the top trades for a superstar when we only did that one time in the history of our franchise for a true Number 1 guy in Kawhi...That trade will never happen for us again because players no days demand where they wanna get traded and 90 percent of the time get where they wanna go...

We are not and never will be a free agent destination as well...So that hinders us badly to gain assets that way..

The chances of us drafting an elite player in the 13s-20s or the 2nd round is much more unlikely than being in that 1-7 range...

If we were a LA based team or any team in America that attracts free agents id consider what you say with a little more validation....But we simply are not and we are a team in Canada where its cold where many of the superstars do not wanna be at...

If we get them through the draft they are stuck with us for 8 years at least and that is why the draft route and getting higher picks is a little bit more logical for our team to go in...Rather than treadmilling like we are year after year with minimal improvements..

Id say the route you think is best is even more impossible for us than winning the draft lottery (which you can control a little more) because i really do not believe we will ever make a trade for a top tier first option ever....Since we did it once in like 25 years

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Btw answer this in honesty...How do you think or which is the easier path for the Raptors get their star/franchise player to build around...Not a fake one like Siakam btw....I mean a legit player to build around.....Through a trade (Which comes like every 5 years or so where you have to outbid 29 other teams, and in the last 5 or so years players now get to demand where they wanna go in a trade) , Through free agency (Where we never had 1 great free agent star sign here), Or through the draft where everyone with high lottery odds has a chance to move up or at least get a good pick...And then all you have to do is draft right...

Id say draft for us is the more logical way to go but give me a reason to believe the other route is more logical and ill listen.

So you get a star, but if you look back at the last decades worth of top 5 picks, what % are #1 options good enough to get you a 'ship? Also, you have to actually pick the right player in that situation and most importantly to be that bad you probably lose a lot of fans and any complementary things pieces to surround that player that are required to win a 'ship. Also, being in that environment also means the player may want to leave when their contract is up.

[Clutch0z24]

Tell this to the Suns who got Booker at 13 and KD via trade (using a 10th/11th pick and future picks) and the Nuggets who got Jokic in the 2nd round.

The successful teams draft well in all spots, make good trades and sign good free agents, they don't need to rely on lottery luck.

You're using 2 extreme examples. Booker was a 6th man in college and 3 other players from his own college team were selected ahead of him in the draft.

If your strategy is to draft a 2 time MVP in the second round, all power to you but it's doesn't seem exactly repeatable.

What about the tons of other teams that draft no bodies with picks in the teens? Even a well run team like the Celtics failed to draft meaningful rotation players with their later picks.

Real world examples suggest that top tier stars are typically acquired via trade / free agency like KD and Lebron. These guys got tired of waiting around for their teams to build a winner and just left. Then you have guys like Giannis, Kawhi, Curry who were drafted a little later in the draft into organizations that weren't tire fires.

This idea that you get top picks and then win titles literally never happens.

Its not about getting top picks and winning titles man....Its about getting that one player to build around....Guys like Wemby/Scoot for example....Or if you find a draft class that has a few guys that may look like franchise players....Or maybe you get lucky where a guy falls to you at 7 like GSW did....

Its not about just getting high picks year after year its about trying to find high level talent to build around....Guys like Barnes...With lower picks its much harder to find a franchise player....You need higher picks just to increase the odds of getting that player...

Raptors atm just need a player to build around...As good as Barnes is i do not think hes a franchise player though...So we have to keep searching....I don't think a trade/free agent will ever do this so that is why anyone who wants to play the draft for a bit wants to do that because it just makes the most logical sense...Since we are not a desired destination

[Clutch0z24]

It's never a good sign when you need to go back 30-40 years to make your point.

Celtics haven't won anything yet and they didn't tank, they made a great trade. The Warriors also didn't tank, they got Curry 7th / Klay 11th / Draymond 35th, that's just great drafting.

Btw answer this in honesty...How do you think or which is the easier path for the Raptors get their star/franchise player to build around...Not a fake one like Siakam btw....I mean a legit player to build around.....Through a trade (Which comes like every 5 years or so where you have to outbid 29 other teams, and in the last 5 or so years players now get to demand where they wanna go in a trade) , Through free agency (Where we never had 1 great free agent star sign here), Or through the draft where everyone with high lottery odds has a chance to move up or at least get a good pick...And then all you have to do is draft right...

Id say draft for us is the more logical way to go but give me a reason to believe the other route is more logical and ill listen.

So you get a star, but if you look back at the last decades worth of top 5 picks, what % are #1 options good enough to get you a 'ship? Also, you have to actually pick the right player in that situation and most importantly to be that bad you probably lose a lot of fans and any complementary things pieces to surround that player that are required to win a 'ship. Also, being in that environment also means the player may want to leave when their contract is up.

Nope this is where Masai's greatness shines the most....Thats Masai number 1 strength from what i seen is building a strong team around a true number 1 option...Our focus atm as a franchise should be keep trying and searching till we get ourselves a franchise player...Thats the first step to building a team....First steps like baby walking is getting the player to build a team around...

Until we get that player we will be a mid team like we are now anyways...Cause i honestly do not see us ever getting one in a trade again or through free agency....If i was confident that we could i would be fine just being meh team for now....But with the way the NBA has been going where its a player driven league and superstars can request things and get their demands met...

I just think the draft is the easiest way or more logical way of getting that franchise player and you go from there and build a team around that player which i think Masai would shine in doing that.

[Jadoogar]

SA, PHX, MIL, DEN, GS etc all seemed to find stars without tanking.

SA tanked for Tim Duncan without Tim Duncan they do not win as many titles...Hes one of the greatest Big men to ever play....

Phx got CP3 who is a star who wanted to be there ,KD also demanded a trade there (Not gonna happen for us)

GSW the year they got Curry they been bad for years and basically have been tanking by putting together bad teams and got lucky at 7...(7TH is a good draft pick)

Denver and Mil out of the teams you listed are the 2 that i can see your point but Murray was also a high draft pick....Joker and Giannis are legit franchise players found outside of the lottery....But like i said thats alot rare to find than finding in the top 1-7 Picks....But yes Trades could be good for the Raptors but we are not getting a superstar/franchise player like Kawhi again in a trade....Maybe a DeJounte Murray type....But not a legit top 5 player in a trade ....Won't happen for the Raptors ever again

Jokic at #41 (Glen Robinson III #40)
Draymond at #35 (Jae Crowder #34)
Butler at #30 (Cory Joseph #29, by the Spurs btw)
Giannis at #15 (Shabazz Muhammed #14)
Kawhi at #15 (Marcus Morris #14)
Booker at #13 (Trey Lyles #12)
Mitchell at #13 (Luke Kennard #13)
Haliburton #12 (Devin Vessell #11)
Klay at #11 (Jimmer Feddette #10)
George at #10 (Gordon Hayward #9)
Curry at #7 (Johnny Flynn #6)
etc

It's very possible to add elite talent later in the draft. Very rarely is all the top talent concentrated at the very top. The smart organizations can find it.

[OakleyDokely]

SA tanked for Tim Duncan without Tim Duncan they do not win as many titles...Hes one of the greatest Big men to ever play....

Phx got CP3 who is a star who wanted to be there ,KD also demanded a trade there (Not gonna happen for us)

GSW the year they got Curry they been bad for years and basically have been tanking by putting together bad teams and got lucky at 7...(7TH is a good draft pick)

Denver and Mil out of the teams you listed are the 2 that i can see your point but Murray was also a high draft pick....Joker and Giannis are legit franchise players found outside of the lottery....But like i said thats alot rare to find than finding in the top 1-7 Picks....But yes Trades could be good for the Raptors but we are not getting a superstar/franchise player like Kawhi again in a trade....Maybe a DeJounte Murray type....But not a legit top 5 player in a trade ....Won't happen for the Raptors ever again

Jokic at #41 (Glen Robinson III #40)
Draymond at #35 (Jae Crowder #34)
Butler at #30 (Cory Joseph #29, by the Spurs btw)
Giannis at #15 (Shabazz Muhammed #14)
Kawhi at #15 (Marcus Morris #14)
Booker at #13 (Trey Lyles #12)
Mitchell at #13 (Luke Kennard #13)
Haliburton #12 (Devin Vessell #11)
Klay at #11 (Jimmer Feddette #10)
George at #10 (Gordon Hayward #9)
Curry at #7 (Johnny Flynn #6)
etc

It's very possible to add elite talent later in the draft. Very rarely is all the top talent concentrated at the very top. The smart organizations can find it.

yup, you can do this with #2, #3, #4, #5 picks as well.