Jokic Making a lot of folks look dumb

[Sgt Major]

30/14/9 on 61 TS% against good defenders most of the time. I don't wanna compare him to any other big but I'll just say ... he's comfortably got the spot as best player in the world, w. being the best center being just a small part of that.

Jimmy Butler also once again forcing people to put respect on his name, once again proving he's a top 7 player, being one of the few ball players besides prime LeBron with essentially no meaningful weaknesses.

Which folks look dumb? Embiid fans who wanted him to win MVP over Jokic? I don't think anyone doubted Jokic.

Even fans of Embiid like me respect Jokic's game. The guy is literally a walking triple-double. While I think that Embiid's better rim protection (which was in clear evidence last night against the Celtics) is a differentiating factor between the two players, that does not mean that I don't respect Jokic's game. It is impossible not to.

Here's hoping for a Sixers-Nuggets finals.

See, posts like this one make people angry. No, rim protection is not the only differentiating factor, no matter how much you guys push that agenda.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

[GeorgeMarcus]

...

If Embiid is better at winning than Jokic in the postseason then why hasn’t he won more than Jokic in the postseason? Especially given he has consistently had better supporting casts.

I also don’t think you can say that Embiid has only one bad stain on his postseason career, especially given that he was terrible at the end of the final few games against the Hawks (he was generally quite bad in the series, despite putting up points). He was far more to blame for that humiliation than Simmons.

Really makes you think…

I don't think you understand how literal the data is that I presented. Joel, while on the court, has outscored his opponents in the playoffs more than Jokic has. He has "won" more than Jokic on a possession by possession basis. What you reference about team success only strengthens my point because the Nuggets have played better without Jokic on the court than the Sixers without Embiid. Embiid can't control what's happening in the 8-10 min he goes to the bench, and we have been REALLY bad during those minutes every year.

Also pretty insane to blame Joel more than Simmons for the Hawks series; there really is no defending that argument.

[bebopdeluxe]

Which folks look dumb? Embiid fans who wanted him to win MVP over Jokic? I don't think anyone doubted Jokic.

Even fans of Embiid like me respect Jokic's game. The guy is literally a walking triple-double. While I think that Embiid's better rim protection (which was in clear evidence last night against the Celtics) is a differentiating factor between the two players, that does not mean that I don't respect Jokic's game. It is impossible not to.

Here's hoping for a Sixers-Nuggets finals.

See, posts like this one make people angry. No, rim protection is not the only differentiating factor, no matter how much you guys push that agenda.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

I said that Embiid protects the rim better than Jokic. Are you trying to say he doesn't?

Embiid had FIVE blocks against the Celtics last night. That chase-down block on Brown is a play Jokic can only make in his dreams. Jokic fans like to rely on Jokic's laudable statistical greatness offensively, and he is great there - no question. But if you have been reading the threads, the difference between Jokic's defense in terms of rim protection and Embiid is massive. If I have to do it, I will re-link the various statistics that show that gap.

I literally said the guy is a "walking triple-double". I respect his game greatly. But if you still want to argue - both the eye-test and demonstrated statistics aside - that Jokic is Embiid's equal in terms of rim protection, then we have nothing to talk about...and it is EXACTLY THIS that makes so many of us detest Jokic fanboys like you.

Let me know if you want me to post the defensive stats AGAIN. Thanks.

[GeorgeMarcus]

...

Based off of what? Both in their career have 5 playoff series wins. If we dont count the first 3 years of Embiid's career where he only played a total of 33 games. So in their last 6 seasons Jokic has 40 more regular season wins than Embiid. There is no way we are judging who is the better winner based off of small sample sizes of On/Off and Net Rating. That in no way trumps all the other factors.

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage in the playoffs.

[GeorgeMarcus]

If Embiid is better at winning than Jokic in the postseason then why hasn’t he won more than Jokic in the postseason? Especially given he has consistently had better supporting casts.

I also don’t think you can say that Embiid has only one bad stain on his postseason career, especially given that he was terrible at the end of the final few games against the Hawks (he was generally quite bad in the series, despite putting up points). He was far more to blame for that humiliation than Simmons.

Really makes you think…

Jokic literally made his only conference finals so far when Murray averaged 30+ a game in a series lmao

Sent from my G3416 using RealGM mobile app

Embiid Playoff PER: 22.1

Jokic Playoff PER: 28.7

Its not even a comparison. Funny how you don't even know how net rating works. All this is telling me is Embiid had stacked lineups and still sucked in the playoffs.

But props to Embiid for winning game 1 away while sitting on the bench. Those claps per minute must have helped the Sixers a ton.

Not trying to be mean but are you being intentionally obtuse by using PER as your argument? It is an utterly worthless jumble of the box data that we already have access to, and at least the box data has tangible meaning. Naturally it does not incorporate impact data whatsoever.

Also if you were referring to me about not knowing how Net Rating works... I think you need to look in the mirror. Unlike PER, Net Rtg conveys tangible/easy to digest information. We know exactly what it means (and I have no idea why you would suggest I don't lol). When used in conjunction with on/off, the 2 metrics are extremely valuable.

[dhsilv2]

...

Based off of what? Both in their career have 5 playoff series wins. If we dont count the first 3 years of Embiid's career where he only played a total of 33 games. So in their last 6 seasons Jokic has 40 more regular season wins than Embiid. There is no way we are judging who is the better winner based off of small sample sizes of On/Off and Net Rating. That in no way trumps all the other factors.

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage in the playoffs.

You're really skewing your data set with all the full playoff games that Embiid has missed. It's really different to fill in for a star for 5-15 minutes a game. It's completely different to have a full 48 minutes where 3rd and 4th string guys might have to fill in.

[Duke4life831]

...

Based off of what? Both in their career have 5 playoff series wins. If we dont count the first 3 years of Embiid's career where he only played a total of 33 games. So in their last 6 seasons Jokic has 40 more regular season wins than Embiid. There is no way we are judging who is the better winner based off of small sample sizes of On/Off and Net Rating. That in no way trumps all the other factors.

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage.

But there are a ton of noise with these stats at such a small sample size. Has Aaron Gordon and MPJ had a bigger impact on winning for the Nuggets these playoffs than Jokic? Those guys have the better On/Off and Net rating than Jokic so far in these playoffs. No one in their right mind will say either one of those guys have been more important to Denver winning in these playoffs.

Philly has a win against Boston in the 2nd round with Joel. Do you really think Denver gets a win against PHX without Jokic? Also if we go by the standard of possession decide the outcome of games and that is the most important statistical standard to go off of. Then we can both agree that Jokic easily deserved the MVP this year. He was far more valuable to winning for the Nuggets than Embiid was for Philly.

Jokic:
On/Off: +21.9
Net Rating: 12.5

Embiid:
On/Off: +10.1
Net Rating: 8.8

But I know you dont think that because I know you have said Embiid deserved the MVP.

Again the noise with these stats on such a small sample size makes them pretty pointless to look at. Blow outs, random runs, Embiid missing mulitple full games (big difference on how backups play in small 2-3 minute bursts vs full 48 minute segments), all of these things create a ton of noise with these stats on such a small sample.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Based off of what? Both in their career have 5 playoff series wins. If we dont count the first 3 years of Embiid's career where he only played a total of 33 games. So in their last 6 seasons Jokic has 40 more regular season wins than Embiid. There is no way we are judging who is the better winner based off of small sample sizes of On/Off and Net Rating. That in no way trumps all the other factors.

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage in the playoffs.

You're really skewing your data set with all the full playoff games that Embiid has missed. It's really different to fill in for a star for 5-15 minutes a game. It's completely different to have a full 48 minutes where 3rd and 4th string guys might have to fill in.

Embiid has played in 59 of a possible 67 playoff games. I won't call it insignificant, but it's probably on par with most star players. To your point though- yes, durability matters, and Jokic is top notch in that regard. You're also right that my analysis didn't account for availability. My justification is that I wanted to compare on-court production rather than broader team effect (which is a separate but also important conversation). Honestly if we were having that conversation, I'd willingly submit that Jokic has the upper hand. I hate docking a player for health struggles but it is what it is.

[dhsilv2]

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage in the playoffs.

You're really skewing your data set with all the full playoff games that Embiid has missed. It's really different to fill in for a star for 5-15 minutes a game. It's completely different to have a full 48 minutes where 3rd and 4th string guys might have to fill in.

Embiid has played in 59 of a possible 67 playoff games. I won't call it insignificant, but it's probably on par with most star players. To your point though- yes, durability matters, and Jokic is top notch in that regard. You're also right that my analysis didn't account for availability. My justification is that I wanted to compare on-court production rather than broader team effect (which is a separate but also important conversation). Honestly if we were having that conversation, I'd willingly submit that Jokic has the upper hand. I hate docking a player for health struggles but it is what it is.

I'm not even addressing health issues here. My point is that when a star misses a full game it has a disproportion negative impact because it means the replacement quality gets SIGNIFICANTLY worse.

For context (Jokic / Embiid) percentage of playoff minutes played.

2019 80% / 58%
2020 76% / 75%
2021 70% / 62%
2022 71% / 66%
2023 78% / 59%

It's just easier for the drop off without a star to be less pronounced when there's less time to fill in for them. And that's missing from our analysis, and while I think you're a very honest poster. I think these stats are presented in a VERY dishonest light given this context and compounded with the smaller sample sizes.

This is before we debate if health should or shouldn't matter in who's better.

[GeorgeMarcus]

Based off of what? Both in their career have 5 playoff series wins. If we dont count the first 3 years of Embiid's career where he only played a total of 33 games. So in their last 6 seasons Jokic has 40 more regular season wins than Embiid. There is no way we are judging who is the better winner based off of small sample sizes of On/Off and Net Rating. That in no way trumps all the other factors.

I am defining "winning" in the context of its most granular unit: possessions. Possessions ultimately decide the outcome of the game and the Sixers have been elite on a possession by possession basis with Joel on the court. He can't control what happens when he's off the court and that is where we've suffered miserably. I said it in my last post but the Nuggets without Jokic have perfored significantly better in the playoffs than the Sixers without Embiid, which only compounds my original point that the Sixers with Joel have been better than the Nuggets with Jokic. Through the impact lens, Embiid has a clear statistical advantage.

But there are a ton of noise with these stats at such a small sample size. Has Aaron Gordon and MPJ had a bigger impact on winning for the Nuggets these playoffs than Jokic? Those guys have the better On/Off and Net rating than Jokic so far in these playoffs. No one in their right mind will say either one of those guys have been more important to Denver winning in these playoffs.

Philly has a win against Boston in the 2nd round with Joel. Do you really think Denver gets a win against PHX without Jokic? Also if we go by the standard of possession decide the outcome of games and that is the most important statistical standard to go off of. Then we can both agree that Jokic easily deserved the MVP this year. He was far more valuable to winning for the Nuggets than Embiid was for Philly.

Jokic:
On/Off: +21.9
Net Rating: 12.5

Embiid:
On/Off: +10.1
Net Rating: 8.8

But I know you dont think that because I know you have said Embiid deserved the MVP.

Again the noise with these stats on such a small sample size makes them pretty pointless to look at. Blow outs, random runs, Embiid missing mulitple full games (big difference on how backups play in small 2-3 minute bursts vs full 48 minute segments), all of these things create a ton of noise with these stats on such a small sample.

A few points...

1) The sample isn't that small when discussing 58 and 59 total playoff games; it's a significant chunk of data to work with, especially in conjunction with RS metrics

2) You're referencing specific games (like the game we won against BOS without Embiid) which is included in the data I presented. If not for that game Joel's advantage would be even more glaring, but we caught the Celtics sleeping and Harden got hot. God forbid if Embiid was out Game 6, I would bet the Celtics heavy and I imagine you would too.

3) Believe it or not, I stated on the board several times that Jokic and Embiid would each have been worthy MVPs this year. What I did argue was that Embiid was just as deserving, and people were whack for thinking it was some kinda landslide. Jokic RS impact data was super impressive this year, albeit slightly affected by the glaring backup C problem when Joker was off the court. If you zoom out and look at career Net Rtg and On/Off, Embiid is +8.5 and +10.6 respectively while Jokic is +6.3 and +10.6. Both players are all-time elite in that regard and it all circles back to my argument that Embiid is in fact on Joker's level. ARGUABLY more valuable come playoff time when poor defenders are hunted more frequently, which is an argument the data would support. But I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole- I'm good with the 'same level' conclusion.

[GeorgeMarcus]

You're really skewing your data set with all the full playoff games that Embiid has missed. It's really different to fill in for a star for 5-15 minutes a game. It's completely different to have a full 48 minutes where 3rd and 4th string guys might have to fill in.

Embiid has played in 59 of a possible 67 playoff games. I won't call it insignificant, but it's probably on par with most star players. To your point though- yes, durability matters, and Jokic is top notch in that regard. You're also right that my analysis didn't account for availability. My justification is that I wanted to compare on-court production rather than broader team effect (which is a separate but also important conversation). Honestly if we were having that conversation, I'd willingly submit that Jokic has the upper hand. I hate docking a player for health struggles but it is what it is.

I'm not even addressing health issues here. My point is that when a star misses a full game it has a disproportion negative impact because it means the replacement quality gets SIGNIFICANTLY worse.

For context (Jokic / Embiid) percentage of playoff minutes played.

2019 80% / 58%
2020 76% / 75%
2021 70% / 62%
2022 71% / 66%
2023 78% / 59%

It's just easier for the drop off without a star to be less pronounced when there's less time to fill in for them. And that's missing from our analysis, and while I think you're a very honest poster. I think these stats are presented in a VERY dishonest light given this context and compounded with the smaller sample sizes.

This is before we debate if health should or shouldn't matter in who's better.

Ah I understand your point now, though I don't think it would have the statistical effect you believe it would if we remove those games. I'll support or invalidate my hypothesis later when I get some time

[Sgt Major]

Even fans of Embiid like me respect Jokic's game. The guy is literally a walking triple-double. While I think that Embiid's better rim protection (which was in clear evidence last night against the Celtics) is a differentiating factor between the two players, that does not mean that I don't respect Jokic's game. It is impossible not to.

Here's hoping for a Sixers-Nuggets finals.

See, posts like this one make people angry. No, rim protection is not the only differentiating factor, no matter how much you guys push that agenda.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

I said that Embiid protects the rim better than Jokic. Are you trying to say he doesn't?

Embiid had FIVE blocks against the Celtics last night. That chase-down block on Brown is a play Jokic can only make in his dreams. Jokic fans like to rely on Jokic's laudable statistical greatness offensively, and he is great there - no question. But if you have been reading the threads, the difference between Jokic's defense in terms of rim protection and Embiid is massive. If I have to do it, I will re-link the various statistics that show that gap.

I literally said the guy is a "walking triple-double". I respect his game greatly. But if you still want to argue - both the eye-test and demonstrated statistics aside - that Jokic is Embiid's equal in terms of rim protection, then we have nothing to talk about...and it is EXACTLY THIS that makes so many of us detest Jokic fanboys like you.

Let me know if you want me to post the defensive stats AGAIN. Thanks.

No, I'm saying that there's also other differentiators and they swing their greatness in Jokic's favor.

[JDR720]

Some people are still taking the Suns to win the series despite what has happened thus far.

Jokic is somehow the best player in the playoffs and not taken seriously at the same time.

[LordCovington33]

Which folks look dumb? Embiid fans who wanted him to win MVP over Jokic? I don't think anyone doubted Jokic.

.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

Which world?
73 1st place votes for Embiid and 15 for Jokic.
Not the real world.

[LordCovington33]

See, posts like this one make people angry. No, rim protection is not the only differentiating factor, no matter how much you guys push that agenda.

And the world knows who's a superior player.

I said that Embiid protects the rim better than Jokic. Are you trying to say he doesn't?

Embiid had FIVE blocks against the Celtics last night. That chase-down block on Brown is a play Jokic can only make in his dreams. Jokic fans like to rely on Jokic's laudable statistical greatness offensively, and he is great there - no question. But if you have been reading the threads, the difference between Jokic's defense in terms of rim protection and Embiid is massive. If I have to do it, I will re-link the various statistics that show that gap.

I literally said the guy is a "walking triple-double". I respect his game greatly. But if you still want to argue - both the eye-test and demonstrated statistics aside - that Jokic is Embiid's equal in terms of rim protection, then we have nothing to talk about...and it is EXACTLY THIS that makes so many of us detest Jokic fanboys like you.

Let me know if you want me to post the defensive stats AGAIN. Thanks.

No, I'm saying that there's also other differentiators and they swing their greatness in Jokic's favor.

You got to learn to tell the difference between “a differentiating” and “the differentiating”. The former means “one of several”, while the latter means “the only one”. He used “ a differentiating”. So, instead of foaming at the mouth and announcing how angry his post makes you feel lol, take the time to read people’s posts properly.

[SlovenianDragon]

This is how i basically feel about all media people these days whether it is sports or news or w.e....

Watch on YouTube

[bebopdeluxe]

I said that Embiid protects the rim better than Jokic. Are you trying to say he doesn't?

Embiid had FIVE blocks against the Celtics last night. That chase-down block on Brown is a play Jokic can only make in his dreams. Jokic fans like to rely on Jokic's laudable statistical greatness offensively, and he is great there - no question. But if you have been reading the threads, the difference between Jokic's defense in terms of rim protection and Embiid is massive. If I have to do it, I will re-link the various statistics that show that gap.

I literally said the guy is a "walking triple-double". I respect his game greatly. But if you still want to argue - both the eye-test and demonstrated statistics aside - that Jokic is Embiid's equal in terms of rim protection, then we have nothing to talk about...and it is EXACTLY THIS that makes so many of us detest Jokic fanboys like you.

Let me know if you want me to post the defensive stats AGAIN. Thanks.

No, I'm saying that there's also other differentiators and they swing their greatness in Jokic's favor.

You got to learn to tell the difference between “a differentiating” and “the differentiating”. The former means “one of several”, while the latter means “the only one”. He used “ a differentiating”. So, instead of foaming at the mouth and announcing how angry his post makes you feel lol, take the time to read people’s posts properly.

Thanks, bro. I thought that was implied…but I guess not.

Read on Twitter

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[LordCovington33]

No, I'm saying that there's also other differentiators and they swing their greatness in Jokic's favor.

You got to learn to tell the difference between “a differentiating” and “the differentiating”. The former means “one of several”, while the latter means “the only one”. He used “ a differentiating”. So, instead of foaming at the mouth and announcing how angry his post makes you feel lol, take the time to read people’s posts properly.

Thanks, bro. I thought that was implied…but I guess not.

Read on Twitter

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Not even implied, but stated clearly.

[Sgt Major]

I said that Embiid protects the rim better than Jokic. Are you trying to say he doesn't?

Embiid had FIVE blocks against the Celtics last night. That chase-down block on Brown is a play Jokic can only make in his dreams. Jokic fans like to rely on Jokic's laudable statistical greatness offensively, and he is great there - no question. But if you have been reading the threads, the difference between Jokic's defense in terms of rim protection and Embiid is massive. If I have to do it, I will re-link the various statistics that show that gap.

I literally said the guy is a "walking triple-double". I respect his game greatly. But if you still want to argue - both the eye-test and demonstrated statistics aside - that Jokic is Embiid's equal in terms of rim protection, then we have nothing to talk about...and it is EXACTLY THIS that makes so many of us detest Jokic fanboys like you.

Let me know if you want me to post the defensive stats AGAIN. Thanks.

No, I'm saying that there's also other differentiators and they swing their greatness in Jokic's favor.

You got to learn to tell the difference between “a differentiating” and “the differentiating”. The former means “one of several”, while the latter means “the only one”. He used “ a differentiating”. So, instead of foaming at the mouth and announcing how angry his post makes you feel lol, take the time to read people’s posts properly.

You can't be serious.

[durden_tyler]

Jokic needs at least 4 chips for the media to acknowledge him as the best Center of all time. I will agree if he wins 4 chips and FMVP for at least 3 of them then I would put above Kareem, Wilt, Russel, Shaq and Hakeem. A long ways to go

I'd argue Jokic taking a small market team like Denver to a title, especially with his current team mates, would be worth 2-3 of Kareem or Shaq's rings.

Dream's two titles are some of the most impressive in NBA history given he led his team through a brutal conference and then dominated Shaq and Ewing in the Finals. Unfortunately, they don't get the respect they deserve because MJ wasn't playing.

And if you gave Pippen to Hakeem instead of to Jordan, he likely wins 4+ titles and enters the GOAT discussion while Jordan becomes an afterthought. Teammates make and break legacies.

Hakeem was every bit as good a player as Kareem and Shaq (if not better), but he never played with another all-time great (while in his/their prime).

LOL Okay