Official Scottie Barnes Thread - Part 5

[Tha Cynic]

Scottie is closer to Sabonis or a Lamar Odom then he is Jokic.

Jokic is a lethal 3 level scorer and is 7 foot lol. They play nothing alike, the only similar thing they have in common is their ability to make passes in tight windows. Scottie raw talent in passing means nothing unless he becomes a threat on offence.

The sheer fact that he averaged 5 assists per game despite having almost no scoring gravity is absurd in its own right. If he was 75% the scorer that Siakam was, Scottie would probably average a triple double lol.

You're talking about two different things. You can be the offensive hub in a similar way and not be the primary scorer. Or course the hope is that he develops that scorer mentality in that role like Jokic did.

I also think Sabonis is much closer to Jokic than he is to Odom. Barnes at his worst is already Lamar Odom. There's a lot of growth available to become a better perimeter player if he keeps growing his game. Odom just never really improved anything. Jokic and Sabonis do not move like Barnes or even Odom did to be able to initiate from the perimeter. Barnes moves well enough where he can, but needs to improve his handles.

A lot of these comparisons are if Barnes doesn't improve his handles at all. If he improves them even slightly, his entire game changes.

[ConSarnit]

It's impossible to replicate because Scottie and Jokic are two very differently built players (Jokic has 2-3 inches and 50+ pounds on Scottie) at very different stages of their careers. When Jokic was 21, he was much more gifted offensively than Scottie (22/13/6 per36 on 64 TS% vs 16/7/5 on 52 TS%) which led to the Nuggets clearing the way for Jokic by moving off of Nurkic and Gallinari. It took many moves after the fact to find a starting lineup that worked as well as this one does for the Nuggets (Murray/Harris/Chandler/Millsap/Jokic for a season and Murray/Harris/Barton or Craig/Millsap/Jokic for two seasons then they slotted MPJ and Gordon into the starting lineup for a few seasons before finally adding KCP this season) and they still weren't even thought of to be legitimate contenders until recently.

We need a C alongside Scottie and that changes things drastically because you aren't going to find many floor-spacing bigs that aren't bad defenders, so the next best thing is a player like Poeltl. Then you're stuck with one complete non-shooting threat and a poor shooter as well as an average shooter if Siakam is included. If Scottie could hit ~35% of his threes and ~50% of his mid-range attempts like Jokic, we'd be in business. Without the ability to reliably score outside of 10 feet though, it's pointless to make these comparisons between a soon-to-be 3rd-year Scottie and arguably the best overall offensive player in the league in his prime in Jokic.

This isn't a comparison between the two. They are different players. But the one thing they both have is passing and vision as bigs which can be used to quarterback an offense as Jokic has done in Denver. Coaches are pitching (Jordi with Sabonis / Adelman with Jokic) to Masai right now how that would work in a Scottie based on offense where he's the hub and players are constantly moving in order to accommodate his skill.

The reason the Nuggets built around Jokic like that is because of his unique skillset as a 7-footer which is wildly different than Scottie's skillset. It confused me and I thought it was a comparison between the two because you said we should build around Scottie like how the Nuggets built around Jokic. My bad.

How does a movement based offense on this team work? The Nuggets and Kings have 5-6 good 3pt shooting threats on their team. If we lose Trent we have 2 (maybe 3 with OPJ). They also operate through their C which draws the other teams big out of the paint (or at least to the top of the key). If Poeltl is playing 30mpg that means his man is parked under the rim a lot. So now we have a movement system with little shooting (and no quick trigger guys like Keagan Murray, Monk, Huerter, Jamal Murray or MPJ who can shoot off of screens) and a more congested paint because we'll be playing a C with zero range. Our team is not built to play a movement style like GSW, DEN and SAC, all of whom have deadly outside shooting. We have maybe the worst sf/pf/c shooting lineup in the league.

[pingpongrac]

This isn't a comparison between the two. They are different players. But the one thing they both have is passing and vision as bigs which can be used to quarterback an offense as Jokic has done in Denver. Coaches are pitching (Jordi with Sabonis / Adelman with Jokic) to Masai right now how that would work in a Scottie based on offense where he's the hub and players are constantly moving in order to accommodate his skill.

The reason the Nuggets built around Jokic like that is because of his unique skillset as a 7-footer which is wildly different than Scottie's skillset. It confused me and I thought it was a comparison between the two because you said we should build around Scottie like how the Nuggets built around Jokic. My bad.

How does a movement based offense on this team work? The Nuggets and Kings have 5-6 good 3pt shooting threats on their team. If we lose Trent we have 2 (maybe 3 with OPJ). They also operate through their C which draws the other teams big out of the paint (or at least to the top of the key). If Poeltl is playing 30mpg that means his man is parked under the rim a lot. So now we have a movement system with little shooting (and no quick trigger guys like Keagan Murray, Monk, Huerter, Jamal Murray or MPJ who can shoot off of screens) and a more congested paint because we'll be playing a C with zero range. Our team is not built to play a movement style like GSW, DEN and SAC, all of whom have deadly outside shooting. We have maybe the worst sf/pf/c shooting lineup in the league.

I'm not sure if you meant to quote me, but I agree. We would need to re-work the entire roster if Scottie is to play a Jokic role and it would be foolish to go all-in on him at this point before he has proven he's capable of ever playing that role consistently. The thing that people seem to be ignoring is that both Jokic and Sabonis are Cs that play alongside 4 wings/guards that are all great (or even elite) shooters for the majority of their minutes. With Scottie himself being a poor shooter, he needs to make a sizable leap in that aspect then would still need to be surrounded by at least 3 good or great shooters while our C would need to be more perimeter-oriented.

[WuTang_CMB]

The reason the Nuggets built around Jokic like that is because of his unique skillset as a 7-footer which is wildly different than Scottie's skillset. It confused me and I thought it was a comparison between the two because you said we should build around Scottie like how the Nuggets built around Jokic. My bad.

How does a movement based offense on this team work? The Nuggets and Kings have 5-6 good 3pt shooting threats on their team. If we lose Trent we have 2 (maybe 3 with OPJ). They also operate through their C which draws the other teams big out of the paint (or at least to the top of the key). If Poeltl is playing 30mpg that means his man is parked under the rim a lot. So now we have a movement system with little shooting (and no quick trigger guys like Keagan Murray, Monk, Huerter, Jamal Murray or MPJ who can shoot off of screens) and a more congested paint because we'll be playing a C with zero range. Our team is not built to play a movement style like GSW, DEN and SAC, all of whom have deadly outside shooting. We have maybe the worst sf/pf/c shooting lineup in the league.

I'm not sure if you meant to quote me, but I agree. We would need to re-work the entire roster if Scottie is to play a Jokic role and it would be foolish to go all-in on him at this point before he has proven he's capable of ever playing that role consistently. The thing that people seem to be ignoring is that both Jokic and Sabonis are Cs that play alongside 4 wings/guards that are all great (or even elite) shooters for the majority of their minutes. With Scottie himself being a poor shooter, he needs to make a sizable leap in that aspect then would still need to be surrounded by at least 3 good or great shooters while our C would need to be more perimeter-oriented.

For carsanir- the movement based on offense only works on creators and shooters and iv already mentioned masai needs to better balance the lineup and bring in those guys to compliment scottie as a hub or one of. We had a nonsense DHO offense that always had us hoisting bad shots. The offense needs a makeover and its going to happen next season with scottie being more of a focal point i dont see how that doesnt happen next season else we are just wasting everyones time on the potential of scottie.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Has Scottie ever played that role? Not to my knowledge. I think it's wishful thinking. Even his trainer didn't think he could pull it off with his inability to hit jumpers. I'd start with getting him comfortable with PnR actions with JP. He was starting to look for more midrange pull ups off the screen.

[HumbleRen]

Has Scottie ever played that role? Not to my knowledge. I think it's wishful thinking. Even his trainer didn't think he could pull it off with his inability to hit jumpers. I'd start with getting him comfortable with PnR actions with JP. He was starting to look for more midrange pull ups off the screen.

He's more of a connector than he is a hub.

I think people want to see him sink or swim in that hub role because the current alternative is to keep the status quo and alot of people don't want that.

[720]

Has Scottie ever played that role? Not to my knowledge. I think it's wishful thinking. Even his trainer didn't think he could pull it off with his inability to hit jumpers. I'd start with getting him comfortable with PnR actions with JP. He was starting to look for more midrange pull ups off the screen.

He's more of a connector than he is a hub.

I think people want to see him sink or swim in that hub role because the current alternative is to keep the status quo and alot of people don't want that.

That’s the position I’m in. If he fails then he fails. Better than watching bum ass Vanvleet and Siakam leading this team.

[Tha Cynic]

Has Scottie ever played that role? Not to my knowledge. I think it's wishful thinking. Even his trainer didn't think he could pull it off with his inability to hit jumpers. I'd start with getting him comfortable with PnR actions with JP. He was starting to look for more midrange pull ups off the screen.

He's more of a connector than he is a hub.

I think people want to see him sink or swim in that hub role because the current alternative is to keep the status quo and alot of people don't want that.

That’s the position I’m in. If he fails then he fails. Better than watching bum ass Vanvleet and Siakam leading this team.

I would think you're looking at him as more of a wing creater than an offensive hub. When I think offensive hub, I think of a guy who's limited to specific spots on the floor and doesn't move around much on the floor (a big man).

Instead of projecting what he'll be with improved handles, we're assuming his handles won't improve and putting him in a more big man role. The Raptors ended up using Barnes more as a wing creater and we saw him go to his mid range game way more to end the season. That's what his role will ultimately be and how you want to develop him. Poeltl will play the role most here call "offensive hub" or "connector".

[ATLTimekeeper]

He's more of a connector than he is a hub.

I think people want to see him sink or swim in that hub role because the current alternative is to keep the status quo and alot of people don't want that.

That’s the position I’m in. If he fails then he fails. Better than watching bum ass Vanvleet and Siakam leading this team.

I would think you're looking at him as more of a wing creater than an offensive hub. When I think offensive hub, I think of a guy who's limited to specific spots on the floor and doesn't move around much on the floor (a big man).

Instead of projecting what he'll be with improved handles, we're assuming his handles won't improve and putting him in a more big man role. The Raptors ended up using Barnes more as a wing creater and we saw him go to his mid range game way more to end the season. That's what his role will ultimately be and how you want to develop him. Poeltl will play the role most here call "offensive hub" or "connector".

I think in the NBA 'hub' usually just means who is controlling the offense. LeBron/Luka are hubs. So is Embiid and Jokic. Doesn't have anything to do with position, even though I think what you're referring to is like a direct hub and spoke visual.

Wing creator seems to be where he'll have the most potential, since he can grab rebounds get up the floor and initiate right away (a la Giannis, Siakam). Seems obvious to me. I have no interest in Scottie being developed as Boris Diaw 2.0. Like, how many 6"8 guys are having high post offense run As a wing creator at worst he's Iguodala.

To me it's mostly just a size thing. He's too short. Already up there in elbow touches for < 6"10 players. Adding a bit more volume there would be good for him overall to invite more scoring opportunities for him, but changing the whole system is just inviting failure. It won't be good for him or the team.

[WuTang_CMB]

Can't have a repeat of last season where Scottie doesn't have a defined role in an offense. Just spin our fkin wheels. Kid needs to be involved with a hub role while we get better shooters involved. He's unselfish and has vision. The mid range will come, just needs reps. This is his third year in the league, every great player made a good jump by their third season but they had opportunities to do so. Confident that the coaches interviewing are doing everything they can to show how they can make him become a legit player in this league.

[dTox]

That’s the position I’m in. If he fails then he fails. Better than watching bum ass Vanvleet and Siakam leading this team.

I would think you're looking at him as more of a wing creater than an offensive hub. When I think offensive hub, I think of a guy who's limited to specific spots on the floor and doesn't move around much on the floor (a big man).

Instead of projecting what he'll be with improved handles, we're assuming his handles won't improve and putting him in a more big man role. The Raptors ended up using Barnes more as a wing creater and we saw him go to his mid range game way more to end the season. That's what his role will ultimately be and how you want to develop him. Poeltl will play the role most here call "offensive hub" or "connector".

I think in the NBA 'hub' usually just means who is controlling the offense. LeBron/Luka are hubs. So is Embiid and Jokic. Doesn't have anything to do with position, even though I think what you're referring to is like a direct hub and spoke visual.

Wing creator seems to be where he'll have the most potential, since he can grab rebounds get up the floor and initiate right away (a la Giannis, Siakam). Seems obvious to me. I have no interest in Scottie being developed as Boris Diaw 2.0. Like, how many 6"8 guys are having high post offense run As a wing creator at worst he's Iguodala.

To me it's mostly just a size thing. He's too short. Already up there in elbow touches for < 6"10 players. Adding a bit more volume there would be good for him overall to invite more scoring opportunities for him, but changing the whole system is just inviting failure. It won't be good for him or the team.

I agree with this, also would like to add that he shouldn't be developed as a PG either. His archetype is for him to be a hybrid SF / PF, in the mold of a Giannis, Tatum, etc. Obviously a lot of development has to happen for him to even sniff that level of success.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I agree with this, also would like to add that he shouldn't be developed as a PG either. His archetype is for him to be a hybrid SF / PF, in the mold of a Giannis, Tatum, etc. Obviously a lot of development has to happen for him to even sniff that level of success.

He doesn't even have to get to that tier, but it's easier to improve your handle (Tatum) and jump shot (Siakam) than it is to grow 3 inches at 22.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Confident that the coaches interviewing are doing everything they can to show how they can make him become a legit player in this league.

Well, yeah, of course they're going to offer that. I seriously doubt any coach is going to offer up a suggestion that Nurse hadn't tried or considered. For me it's really about improving efficiency from a number of spots, continuing to work on that handle and maturing into a more professional approach. The ball finds players that make the most positive plays on offense.

[WuTang_CMB]

Confident that the coaches interviewing are doing everything they can to show how they can make him become a legit player in this league.

Well, yeah, of course they're going to offer that. I seriously doubt any coach is going to offer up a suggestion that Nurse hadn't tried or considered. For me it's really about improving efficiency from a number of spots, continuing to work on that handle and maturing into a more professional approach. The ball finds players that make the most positive plays on offense.

Lol. Not quite. Nurse didn’t implement any offense that played to anyones strengths nor did he build on what scottie provided last season. Offenses are constantly changing depending on players growth and new personnel, and in this case for us masai wanted better defined roles and a bigger role for scottie. Nick didnt’t suggest that then get shut down lol. He failed there. There’s a reason why they moved scottie next to pascal in the locker room. You dont draft someone like scottie who’s got all the potential in the world only for the coaches to treat him like a journeyman especially when we have FVV hijacking last year.

[ItsDanger]

Scottie is the best passer on this team. To maximize passing talents, you must have cutters. We have none on this roster. That's why Denver acquired Gordon, Brown specifically (aside from other reasons) to better use Jokic's passing. If everyone is standing around, this passing talent is wasted and relies on Scottie to create everything. The usage of screens on this roster is rudimentary at best. This is the BEST way to create more space if you don't have that burst or handles to do so.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Confident that the coaches interviewing are doing everything they can to show how they can make him become a legit player in this league.

Well, yeah, of course they're going to offer that. I seriously doubt any coach is going to offer up a suggestion that Nurse hadn't tried or considered. For me it's really about improving efficiency from a number of spots, continuing to work on that handle and maturing into a more professional approach. The ball finds players that make the most positive plays on offense.

Lol. Not quite. Nurse didn’t implement any offense that played to anyones strengths nor did he build on what scottie provided last season. Offenses are constantly changing depending on players growth and new personnel, and in this case for us masai wanted better defined roles and a bigger role for scottie. Nick didnt’t suggest that then get shut down lol. He failed there. There’s a reason why they moved scottie next to pascal in the locker room. You dont draft someone like scottie who’s got all the potential in the world only for the coaches to treat him like a journeyman especially when we have FVV hijacking last year.

Where are you getting this? I haven't read any of that.

Where did Scottie grow last season to warrant a change in offense? And why is Scottie moving next to Siakam a bad reflection on Nurse? Masai moved him there against Nurse's wishes?

[ATLTimekeeper]

Scottie is the best passer on this team. To maximize passing talents, you must have cutters. We have none on this roster. That's why Denver acquired Gordon, Brown specifically (aside from other reasons) to better use Jokic's passing. If everyone is standing around, this passing talent is wasted and relies on Scottie to create everything. The usage of screens on this roster is rudimentary at best. This is the BEST way to create more space if you don't have that burst or handles to do so.

Denver averaged 10.1 cuts (2nd), Toronto 8.8 (6th). I can only imagine that number was trending up after the Poeltl trade.

[ItsDanger]

Scottie is the best passer on this team. To maximize passing talents, you must have cutters. We have none on this roster. That's why Denver acquired Gordon, Brown specifically (aside from other reasons) to better use Jokic's passing. If everyone is standing around, this passing talent is wasted and relies on Scottie to create everything. The usage of screens on this roster is rudimentary at best. This is the BEST way to create more space if you don't have that burst or handles to do so.

Denver averaged 10.1 cuts (2nd), Toronto 8.8 (6th). I can only imagine that number was trending up after the Poeltl trade.

Half of their cuts pre-Poeltl are Scottie/Boucher/Achiuwa. Basically the non shooters. I think they're easy to defend, zone up, let Scottie shoot. These stats appear inadequate to me if they don't include all cutting attempts, not just ones that result in FGA.

[WuTang_CMB]

Well, yeah, of course they're going to offer that. I seriously doubt any coach is going to offer up a suggestion that Nurse hadn't tried or considered. For me it's really about improving efficiency from a number of spots, continuing to work on that handle and maturing into a more professional approach. The ball finds players that make the most positive plays on offense.

Lol. Not quite. Nurse didn’t implement any offense that played to anyones strengths nor did he build on what scottie provided last season. Offenses are constantly changing depending on players growth and new personnel, and in this case for us masai wanted better defined roles and a bigger role for scottie. Nick didnt’t suggest that then get shut down lol. He failed there. There’s a reason why they moved scottie next to pascal in the locker room. You dont draft someone like scottie who’s got all the potential in the world only for the coaches to treat him like a journeyman especially when we have FVV hijacking last year.

Where are you getting this? I haven't read any of that.

Where did Scottie grow last season to warrant a change in offense? And why is Scottie moving next to Siakam a bad reflection on Nurse? Masai moved him there against Nurse's wishes?

How are you getting these questions based on what i said? You’re not comprehending. Scottie moving next to Siakam wasn’t a shot at nurse. It was a move done by management for optics in the room to make it known that scottie is a big piece of the team. If Masai thinks that move was warranted after a ROY campaign, what do you think his thoughts were when Fred/Nurse were hijacking the offense and having Scottie a 4/5 option? Well let me tell you, he fired the coach who implemented that nonsense. Lol.

I can assure you that next season scottie will have a much bigger role next season.

[Tha Cynic]

That’s the position I’m in. If he fails then he fails. Better than watching bum ass Vanvleet and Siakam leading this team.

I would think you're looking at him as more of a wing creater than an offensive hub. When I think offensive hub, I think of a guy who's limited to specific spots on the floor and doesn't move around much on the floor (a big man).

Instead of projecting what he'll be with improved handles, we're assuming his handles won't improve and putting him in a more big man role. The Raptors ended up using Barnes more as a wing creater and we saw him go to his mid range game way more to end the season. That's what his role will ultimately be and how you want to develop him. Poeltl will play the role most here call "offensive hub" or "connector".

I think in the NBA 'hub' usually just means who is controlling the offense. LeBron/Luka are hubs. So is Embiid and Jokic. Doesn't have anything to do with position, even though I think what you're referring to is like a direct hub and spoke visual.

Wing creator seems to be where he'll have the most potential, since he can grab rebounds get up the floor and initiate right away (a la Giannis, Siakam). Seems obvious to me. I have no interest in Scottie being developed as Boris Diaw 2.0. Like, how many 6"8 guys are having high post offense run As a wing creator at worst he's Iguodala.

To me it's mostly just a size thing. He's too short. Already up there in elbow touches for < 6"10 players. Adding a bit more volume there would be good for him overall to invite more scoring opportunities for him, but changing the whole system is just inviting failure. It won't be good for him or the team.

Ah okay, so I think I mixed up the term. I was thinking more Jokic or Sabonis when it came to offensive hub. Throw the ball to them inside or high post and let them create for others.

To me he has always been a wing player who can create. He's not a guard. He needs to be developed this way with his perimeter skills given big importance. A wing player is basically a cross between a big man and guard which is what Barnes is.