Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[Ron Swanson]

I'd trade that combo of Bobby/Grayson/Pat for Poole and a pick, but that's about it and I'd probably be actively trying to flip him to a rebuilding team anyways. The whole "20 PPG scorer" thing doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.

[LuessiT]

Can we just stop with Poole. I come here for some smart takes, but the Poole talk is so dumb. I could maybe understand it if it was a buy low on a good contract, but he might have the worst contract in the league. Even if he was decent, it's blatantly obvious his teammates dislike him, and he has locker room issue. I feel like I'm going crazy. It makes absolutely no sense.

Except the Poole talk is a really good take if his real value is anywhere close to where the public perception has him. He’s a 20ppg scorer on solid efficiency with a well rounded shot profile while displaying skills which can lead to even bigger growth.

Yeah, giving up Jrue or Middleton for him is probably a no go, but if it’s just costing us a couple of our role players, I would definitely be happy to gamble on him. I doubt the offer being proposed above is actually something Golden State would do.

I am actively talking about giving up Middleton for him though. The way I see it:

Poole should have negative value in the court of the public opinion. He's going to make 128m (more or less) guaranteed over the next 4 years which is 32m per year. He's a 20ppg scorer right now on medium efficiency as a third/fourth option. He's 23 and very durable.

Middleton is a former all star coming off an injury-riddled season and a good playoff finish. He's going to make more or less 160m over the next 4 years which translates to 40m per year. He's a 20ppg scorer right now on medium/high efficiency as a second/third option. He's 31 and missed significant time already.

Common perception is that Middleton is more valuable than Poole. But if you ask me, Poole is going to be cheaper over the next 4 years, Poole is going to have more trade value over the next 4 years. And while Middleton is obviously the better player now I do think it's even debatable who's going to be the better player over the span of the next 4 years with Middleton slowing down on average while Poole should still be improving. Imo, Poole should be the (significantly) more valuable player. You could deep dive more, but I keep coming to that conclusion.

Now that clearly is not the case, which to me is due largely to market inefficiencies. And we are in a perfect position to utilize this, because we have the right player profile in the right salary range. Obviously Poole is not the exact player we would want to add but imo he's close enough. And we can probably ask for significantly more in return.

[machu46]

I'd trade that combo of Bobby/Grayson/Pat for Poole and a pick, but that's about it and I'd probably be actively trying to flip him to a rebuilding team anyways. The whole "20 PPG scorer" thing doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.

Going for Poole would definitely be a bit of a high risk maneuver, but for a team that could desperately use someone that can create shots both for himself and some for his teammates and also use an injection of youth, you probably won’t find a guy as talented as him in that regard that would require us to give up as little as he would (if people online are correct about his value right now).

Would definitely need to figure out a way to cover him up defensively though or get him to give more of a damn on that end which seems unlikely but maybe not impossible. Golden State did also just win a championship with him playing a very significant role for them, so it’s not like he’s just putting up numbers on a crap team.


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[ABucksFan]

I rather just try to get Monk/Sexton if we're looking at Poole.

One of the smartest teams in the league refuses to give big minutes to Poole...just let that sink in and what that tells you about him.

[Ron Swanson]

Poole not becoming the best version of himself while being in the perfect organization and roster for his skill-set is about as massive a red flag as any 4th year player can have. Dude maxed out as a glorified Jamal Crawford during their title run and it fooled people, Golden State included, into thinking he was this super high upside piece just because he can shoot parking-lot 3's coming off high ball screens. When the reality is that he's never really been this supremely talented prospect at any level in high school (99th ranked recruit), collegiate (28th pick), or the pros. I don't think the Monta comps are actually that far off but here's another one for the old-timers: Poor Man's Isaiah Rider.

[chonestown]

Poole not becoming the best version of himself while being in the perfect organization and roster for his skill-set is about as massive a red flag as any 4th year player can have. Dude maxed out as a glorified Jamal Crawford during their title run and it fooled people, Golden State included, into thinking he was this super high upside piece just because he can shoot parking-lot 3's coming off high ball screens. When the reality is that he's never really been this supremely talented prospect at any level in high school (99th ranked recruit), collegiate (28th pick), or the pros. I don't think the Monta comps are actually that far off but here's another one for the old-timers: Poor Man's Isaiah Rider.

Nick Young minus the memeability.

[thonnisbeastley]

Poole is light years ahead of Middleton in their age 23 seasons. Middleton has maybe 1-2 years left as a high efficiency 20ppg scorer, if he can even stay healthy which let's be honest, he can't. His knees are cooked and his body is fragile.

It's the perfect buy low on a rising star who was shut out of the game plan by his teammates this postseason. He's on a solid contract. He's 23 and will be entering his prime over the 4-year deal that starts next season.

I get people thinking Middleton is the better option for us next season. But some of those same people expect/want to extend him for a 4/160 deal, which will absolutely cripple this franchise. He's not going to be that guy anymore by year 1 or 2 of his new contract. I get it, he's a Bucks legend at this point but some people want to hang on to the past and expect it will come true again in the future. There was discussion before the season about a Middleton for Bridges/Crowder deal. The same people were absolutely against that and had we done a deal like that, we'd be on our way to the Finals this season.

There's so much discussion about how we need to get younger and more athletic. Well here you go, perfect buy low opportunity on a guy who's value has been diminished before even entering his prime. With how early players get drafted these days, so many of them are written off as average role players because they have 4-5 years in the league as 18-23 year olds. The mindset has to change if we want to have any hope of getting back to the finals.

[machu46]

I rather just try to get Monk/Sexton if we're looking at Poole.

One of the smartest teams in the league refuses to give big minutes to Poole...just let that sink in and what that tells you about him.

He played significantly more than minutes per game in the regular season than either of those guys. Sexton has never played a playoff game so we have no idea what kind of role he might have. Poole played pretty big minutes en route to the championship last season in an unarguably large role in their offense and has still played over 29 minutes a game this postseason despite his recent struggles shooting the ball (and his normal struggles on defense). I feel like if anything they’ve shown a pretty good amount of faith in him because he probably shouldn’t be playing that much when he’s shooting like 35% from the floor and can’t hit 3’s lol


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[ABucksFan]

I rather just try to get Monk/Sexton if we're looking at Poole.

One of the smartest teams in the league refuses to give big minutes to Poole...just let that sink in and what that tells you about him.

He played significantly more than minutes per game in the regular season than either of those guys. Sexton has never played a playoff game so we have no idea what kind of role he might have. Poole played pretty big minutes en route to the championship last season in an unarguably large role in their offense and has still played over 29 minutes a game this postseason despite his recent struggles shooting the ball (and his normal struggles on defense). I feel like if anything they’ve shown a pretty good amount of faith in him because he probably shouldn’t be playing that much when he’s shooting like 35% from the floor and can’t hit 3’s lol


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That's kind of the league right now though..A lot of these players haven't played in a playoff game so it's unsure. Kings guys never been in the playoffs and all played relatively well. I don't mind going for Poole if assets are cheap, just think you can get other guys for less assets and on a better contract.

[jimmybones]

Find a way to send KM to the Kangs for their young guys.

Yes, this. Something like Khris for Monk and Huerter?

almost spit out my coffee

[theFireBlanket]

Should've traded for GPII over Crowder.

[Couch Potato]

I'd trade that combo of Bobby/Grayson/Pat for Poole and a pick, but that's about it and I'd probably be actively trying to flip him to a rebuilding team anyways. The whole "20 PPG scorer" thing doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.

I'd do that. Then run it back with the new coach if Middleton and Lopez don't break the bank. Then if we don't win it all next season. Start breaking up Middleton or Holiday into other younger players that are cost controlled.

[DingleJerry]

So is everyone just ignoring that Poole played perfectly well last playoffs at age 22ish while being the 2-3rd best player on a team that literally won the championship? You know, then a pshychopath punched him in the face and its his fault?

I mean, yea of course I get that he ultimately might not be good enough when elevated to lead guy/handler/initiator without Curry/Thompson around him (but he'd be getting Giannis instead) but to just crap on the guy because of what's going on while ignoring that was just a key contributor to literal championship 11 months ago seems much.

I'd agree this is a great buy low situation, he's played badly and one of he/dray simply has to go so their hand is forced. If you can get him for the spare parts you do it all day. If you can swap is upcoming 4 year contract for what Midd is about to get, you do it. I'm more down on Jrue than most here and would prefer to move him than Midd but oddly Jrue is the perfect guard pairing with Poole.

One thing to note on Poole, and don't hold me to this as it's been several years now. But if I recall during his high school recruiting the word was he didn't like MKE, had family issues of some kind, etc that made him have no interest in Marquette/UW. Basically he wanted out of town.

[GHOSTofSIKMA]

Horst needed to prevent the reallocation of those same Tucker dollars to Grayson Allen.

tuckers dollars went to portis.

allen was the replacement for ddv at good market value

Fair point that we could have just as easily passed on Portis and kept Tucker.

That probably was the plan until he said he’d come back on the extreme cheap.

It’s hard to knock the Bucks for taking Bobby up on that offer. Of course we could have kept them both too and still acquired Allen.

From a dollars standpoint though whatever needed to happen to bring PJ back needed to happen. Team would have made the money back with deeper playoff runs, and all the failed Tucker replacements ended up costly too.

in retrospect we should have kept tucker. to me... portis is the least valuable guy of our mid tier contracts. if you want to keep him i get it but you dont let strong contributor types go for mascot energy lockerroom guys

in portis case, he in theory is supposed to bring exactly what we got from tucker. the problem is he only checks the boxes tucker checked in those times the ball wasnt in play

[paulpressey25]

The Poole debate here is well done.

He's a chucker who is now fat and happy with his new contract, and at the same time might be the perfect buy-low guy this team badly needs at the guard spot. Both could be true.

[RiotPunch]

I understand and respect the Poole gamble. That is a long-term value play that could pay off. If Bobby/Grayson/Pat gets it done AND you get additional assets, that becomes tough to turn down. If it's Khris... IDK. I don't think Khris would have any problems signing on to play in the Bay, though. Would be curious to see the value we could extract. As a fit, I have grown to hate it. Poole can get hot and the rim becomes a hula-hoop for him from ridiculous range, which is nice, but do we really need another low BBIQ turnstile defender?

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Poole not becoming the best version of himself while being in the perfect organization and roster for his skill-set is about as massive a red flag as any 4th year player can have. Dude maxed out as a glorified Jamal Crawford during their title run and it fooled people, Golden State included, into thinking he was this super high upside piece just because he can shoot parking-lot 3's coming off high ball screens. When the reality is that he's never really been this supremely talented prospect at any level in high school (99th ranked recruit), collegiate (28th pick), or the pros. I don't think the Monta comps are actually that far off but here's another one for the old-timers: Poor Man's Isaiah Rider.

Im not a Poole guy but I think it's hard to be the best version of yourself when you get punched by a teammate and not a good fit with curry/Klay both healthy. I think his role has changed a bit and not in the best role. Still a hard pass on someone who drops $500k on a date.

[StickeeFingaz]

Poole also nearly had his face caved in by one of the “team leaders” in the preseason. IDK, could maybe be something to do with his play this year.

[Prez]

I’m not really buying any of the excuses for Poole tbh. The Draymond incident doesn’t excuse him being one of the worst defenders in the entire league or having a too cool for school attitude at basically all times and making terrible decisions with regularity.

I could maybe be talked into a buy low situation with him but at some point his underperformance has to be on him.

[Ron Swanson]

I'm not gonna condone anything Draymond did but the "he got punched in the face 8 months ago" thing is a weird excuse to basically gloss over the fact that his warts were all there (defensive turnstile, zero court vision, horrid shot selection/IQ) well before said face punching. He's improved none of those going into his 5th season as a pro. If Andrew Wiggins can immediately go to Golden State and become a great defender and team player, then what was Poole's excuse? And that's not even getting into the main issue I have which is I just don't think he's that talented.