Draymond vs Pau as Team's #2

[Colbinii]

This is a hilarious thread where the two prominent Draymond Green Misunderstanders [I doubt they have watched a single Draymond Green game] are completely disregarding Pau Gasol and and inability to play winning basketball without Kobe Bryant.

In 2007, the Memphis Grizzles fielded a weak roster, but they also had Mike Miller [3.1 OBPM, 102.5 TS+], Hakim Warrick [-0.3 OBPM, 89.1 TS+], Chucky Atkins [2.9 OBPM, 65.5 TS+].

Yes, those players are heavily slanted towards offense. Yes, those were the only 3 positive scorers on the team outside of Gasol. But you have a team with 4 efficient scorers and can only muster 22 wins?

The Warriors were unfortunately left with no meaningfully impactful offensive players on the roster. They made a major roster move mid-way through the season.

Here is the best statistic though. The Warriors had 4 players in their rotation who had career high minutes that season. Of those 4 players while 3 of them are already out of the league in 2023.

These are not comparable rotations. These are not comparable rosters.

[Jaivl]

This is a hilarious thread where the two prominent Draymond Green Misunderstanders [I doubt they have watched a single Draymond Green game] are completely disregarding Pau Gasol and and inability to play winning basketball without Kobe Bryant.

In 2007, the Memphis Grizzles fielded a weak roster, but they also had Mike Miller [3.1 OBPM, 102.5 TS+], Hakim Warrick [-0.3 OBPM, 89.1 TS+], Chucky Atkins [2.9 OBPM, 65.5 TS+].

Yes, those players are heavily slanted towards offense. Yes, those were the only 3 positive scorers on the team outside of Gasol. But you have a team with 4 efficient scorers and can only muster 22 wins?

The Warriors were unfortunately left with no meaningfully impactful offensive players on the roster. They made a major roster move mid-way through the season.

Here is the best statistic though. The Warriors had 4 players in their rotation who had career high minutes that season. Of those 4 players while 3 of them are already out of the league in 2023.

These are not comparable rotations. These are not comparable rosters.

If you want to make an argument against Gasol's Memphis impact, defense is for sure the way to go -- Memphis were good on offense in 2007, especially when Gasol played, despite being a terrible team overall.

(And speaking about defense and Miller, Warrick and Chucky Atkins, somehow you failed to mention their -1.7 DBPM, -1.7 DBPM and -2.5 DBPM).

[70sFan]

That's not a fair comparison at all. Pau played on a bad Memphis team. Draymond is a part of a well oiled machine like Golden State which is better equipped than anybody to survive without some of their best players.

You are not fair towards Green for your whole existance on this board, I play your game.

I disagree with that, I praise Draymond for what he is, an elite role player. Those guys are needed to win championships, but when you compare him individually to some other players, you have to take that into consideration.

The best defender in the league can't be a roleplayer. Green at his peak (2015-17) was a top 5-8 player in the league.

[oaktownwarriors87]

WTF Pau ofcourse.

How is this close?

Yeah, this is disrespectful to Gasol

[Gooner]

You are not fair towards Green for your whole existance on this board, I play your game.

I disagree with that, I praise Draymond for what he is, an elite role player. Those guys are needed to win championships, but when you compare him individually to some other players, you have to take that into consideration.

The best defender in the league can't be a roleplayer. Green at his peak (2015-17) was a top 5-8 player in the league.

I disagree with the first sentence and definitely with the second.

[Colbinii]

This is a hilarious thread where the two prominent Draymond Green Misunderstanders [I doubt they have watched a single Draymond Green game] are completely disregarding Pau Gasol and and inability to play winning basketball without Kobe Bryant.

In 2007, the Memphis Grizzles fielded a weak roster, but they also had Mike Miller [3.1 OBPM, 102.5 TS+], Hakim Warrick [-0.3 OBPM, 89.1 TS+], Chucky Atkins [2.9 OBPM, 65.5 TS+].

Yes, those players are heavily slanted towards offense. Yes, those were the only 3 positive scorers on the team outside of Gasol. But you have a team with 4 efficient scorers and can only muster 22 wins?

The Warriors were unfortunately left with no meaningfully impactful offensive players on the roster. They made a major roster move mid-way through the season.

Here is the best statistic though. The Warriors had 4 players in their rotation who had career high minutes that season. Of those 4 players while 3 of them are already out of the league in 2023.

These are not comparable rotations. These are not comparable rosters.

If you want to make an argument against Gasol's Memphis impact, defense is for sure the way to go -- Memphis were good on offense in 2007, especially when Gasol played, despite being a terrible team overall.

(And speaking about defense and Miller, Warrick and Chucky Atkins, somehow you failed to mention their -1.7 DBPM, -1.7 DBPM and -2.5 DBPM).

I said they were bad defenders and heavily slanted offense.

Similar to this years Kings team.

[oaktownwarriors87]

Draymond by far.

Prime Draymond was a better 1 option and flatout better player too. Pau couldnt win a playoff game as the best player on his team. Not as a Grizzly and not when Kobe went down in 13. He was 0-16 in playoff games as his teams best player and couldnt win one without Kobe until he got to Chicago where he was Jimmys 2nd option. We saw 16 Draymond win multiple playoff games without Steph VS Dame and Harden. He went 4-2 w/o Steph in 16 playoffs and nearly 5-1 if not for a last second Harden gamewinner

And from when Memphis became a playoff team from 04-06 they were 20-12 without Pau which is a 51 win pace. He had arguably the best defensive roster around def the best perimeter defense and Memphis fell off a cliff and won 22 games in 07 after Battier who was prolly their most important player got traded.

Even aside Draymond just being a much better player prime for prime hes a far better fit next to an offensive engine like Dame or Booker who can play with or without the ball and would benefit immensely from Draymonds alltime help defense and big man playmaking. The pick and roll defense w/ Dame,Book and Pau would be alltime bad and Pau is a poor defender in general

Draymond went 4-2 without Curry. That's with Thompson averaging almost 30 PPG in the wins while leading the team in scoring every win... against the 42 win Rockets and 43 win Blazers.

That's 1-2 on the road and 3-0 at home against average teams with Thompson as the #1 option. Let's not forget that Iguodala and Thompson were the ones defending Harden and Lillard.

Gasol lost to Duncan, Dirk and Nash while all were in their primes (57, 60 and 62 win seasons). These were Gasol's highest scoring teammates in each of those series:

2004 James Posey 13.7 PPG
2005 Mike Miller 13.4 PPG
2006 Eddie Jones 10.3 PPG

So your argument is that Draymond can beat mediocre teams with tons of help and that Gasol can't beat elite teams with no help. Got it.

The last time Draymond didn't have Klay and Curry the Warriors had the worst record in the NBA and Green looked terrible.

[70sFan]

I disagree with that, I praise Draymond for what he is, an elite role player. Those guys are needed to win championships, but when you compare him individually to some other players, you have to take that into consideration.

The best defender in the league can't be a roleplayer. Green at his peak (2015-17) was a top 5-8 player in the league.

I disagree with the first sentence and definitely with the second.

You disagree with what exactly? The best defenders in the league are among the best players in the league, period. Calling them roleplayers is both disrespectful and wrong.

Is every player, who doesn't score 20 ppg, a roleplayer to you?

[Doctor MJ]

The best defender in the league can't be a roleplayer. Green at his peak (2015-17) was a top 5-8 player in the league.

I disagree with the first sentence and definitely with the second.

You disagree with what exactly? The best defenders in the league are among the best players in the league, period. Calling them roleplayers is both disrespectful and wrong.

Is every player, who doesn't score 20 ppg, a roleplayer to you?

I'm with 70s here. We can debate about where Green should rank, but I don't consider someone like him to be a role player.

For me the essence of a role player is someone whose job can be described simply and doesn't require many types of improvisation. If you're told basically "Don't worry about X, Y & Z, just do A", you're a role player.

And meanwhile, if you have a job that can't remotely be described that way because it's too complex, you're not a role player.

Note that by my definition, in theory, a volume scorer could be a role player, though I'd be reluctant to use the term because it would confuse people. I think most if not all actual volume scorers actually do a great deal of improvisation out there, but in theory it would be possible to be so good at doing one thing that you could just do that thing and score a ton of points.

[70sFan]

However some of the takes are quite laughable. Draymond Green never in his wildest dreams was anything close to a top 5-8 player. At best he was perhaps top 20 in 2016, his best season.

Name 15 players better than Green in 2016.

Now and basically most of his other years he’s a hyper defensive system role player.

What makes Green a "defensive system role player"?

Green on any other team besides the Warriors would be embarrassingly exposed.

Why do you think Green's defense would be exposed outside GS?

Horrid scorer and shooter who is a major offensive liability at times to the point he needs to be benched, as was seen in the 2021 Finals.

Green didn't play in 2021 finals. I assume you meant 2022 finals, which is Green's weakest offensive performance of his career and yet he still wasn't benched (averaged 36 mpg) and was a key contributor in that series.

[rand]

I disagree with the first sentence and definitely with the second.

You disagree with what exactly? The best defenders in the league are among the best players in the league, period. Calling them roleplayers is both disrespectful and wrong.

Is every player, who doesn't score 20 ppg, a roleplayer to you?

I'm with 70s here. We can debate about where Green should rank, but I don't consider someone like him to be a role player.

For me the essence of a role player is someone whose job can be described simply and doesn't require many types of improvisation. If you're told basically "Don't worry about X, Y & Z, just do A", you're a role player.

And meanwhile, if you have a job that can't remotely be described that way because it's too complex, you're not a role player.

Note that by my definition, in theory, a volume scorer could be a role player, though I'd be reluctant to use the term because it would confuse people. I think most if not all actual volume scorers actually do a great deal of improvisation out there, but in theory it would be possible to be so good at doing one thing that you could just do that thing and score a ton of points.

In my experience "roleplayer" basically means a player who doesn't score a lot and the kind of fan who embraces the term tends to have a reductive view of the game with everything being about who has the biggest or most star players.

[MiamiBulls]

However some of the takes are quite laughable. Draymond Green never in his wildest dreams was anything close to a top 5-8 player. At best he was perhaps top 20 in 2016, his best season. Now and basically most of his other years he’s a hyper defensive system role player. Great defender and solid playmaker, though the latter is much more a product of Curry’s revolutionary offensive gravity / Warriors system. Green on any other team besides the Warriors would be embarrassingly exposed.

Do you consider Manu Ginobili as a Spurs system role player who at best was a Top 20 player?

Why do you think Draymond's scoreboard changing defense would be exposed in a different situation?

[CodeBreaker]

I feel like Gasol is so much disrespected in this thread

[Jaivl]

I feel like Gasol is so much disrespected in this thread

How so?

However some of the takes are quite laughable. Draymond Green never in his wildest dreams was anything close to a top 5-8 player. At best he was perhaps top 20 in 2016, his best season. Now and basically most of his other years he’s a hyper defensive system role player. Great defender and solid playmaker, though the latter is much more a product of Curry’s revolutionary offensive gravity / Warriors system. Green on any other team besides the Warriors would be embarrassingly exposed.

From 2015 to 2017, the Warriors without Curry or Durant are +8.6 per 100.

From 2015 to 2017, the Warriors without Curry or Durant or Klay are +12.6 per 100 (small sample size). Green scored like crap on those minutes (cause even at his best he's a very bad scorer), but his defense is so good that the team can more than crush it (against second units) with Ian Clark, Mareese Speights or Leandro Barbosa as their lead scorers.

[Gooner]

This is a hilarious thread where the two prominent Draymond Green Misunderstanders [I doubt they have watched a single Draymond Green game] are completely disregarding Pau Gasol and and inability to play winning basketball without Kobe Bryant.

In 2007, the Memphis Grizzles fielded a weak roster, but they also had Mike Miller [3.1 OBPM, 102.5 TS+], Hakim Warrick [-0.3 OBPM, 89.1 TS+], Chucky Atkins [2.9 OBPM, 65.5 TS+].

Yes, those players are heavily slanted towards offense. Yes, those were the only 3 positive scorers on the team outside of Gasol. But you have a team with 4 efficient scorers and can only muster 22 wins?

The Warriors were unfortunately left with no meaningfully impactful offensive players on the roster. They made a major roster move mid-way through the season.

Here is the best statistic though. The Warriors had 4 players in their rotation who had career high minutes that season. Of those 4 players while 3 of them are already out of the league in 2023.

These are not comparable rotations. These are not comparable rosters.

I've watched plenty of Draymond Green games including a last one when he played great. But the fact that people are celebrating that he scored 20 points tells you all you need to know. Pau Gasol needed a good team to play winning basketball, just like any other player. Look at his impact on LA when they got him. They were not a contender before that. Also if we are comparing Gasol on bad teams and Draymond without Curry and Klay, it's not just about results, it's about their performance. Gasol was an all star before Lakers, Green was nothing without the splash brothers.