OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[GQStylin]

I would have traded Matthews after the Montreal series (5th straight 1st round loss) after the 2020-21 playoffs, because at that point he still had 3 seasons left on his deal, and would have commanded a massive haul. Even after last year's loss, he had a 60 goal season, and probably would have still commanded a massive haul of young players and picks to build out the roster. Now they have one season left and a window of less than 2 months to deal him, before his NMC kicks in.

So wait you'd trade away a young star franchise center just because he didn't help bring home a championship by the time he hit 23? Really? Why even bother rebuilding when every few years you're going to turnover your roster of young players because they didn't win a championship or have great success in the first few years of their careers?

I mean I can understand thinking about moving a star player when they've been around for a number of years and they're nearing their 30s. By that time they've been in the league for a long time and you can evaluate their body of work and decide if they should stay or not, but moving a top player their early 20s? That makes no sense unless the player wants out.

No, I don't watch the Leafs at all. I vowed not to watch them again until they won a 1st round. They weren't worth my time. From what I have heard from avid Leaf fans who watch every game is Holl generally sucks. From the little I watched of him in the 2nd round, it seemed to confirm their opinions. How Holl and Liljegren perform in the regular season, when the stakes and physicality are not as great, is not the same as in the playoffs.

Holl isn't useless lets just put it that way. Just that his role shouldn't be as large as it is much of the time. Liljegren has played very well for much of the regular season and that absolutely should earn him a shot in the playoffs to prove himself that he's capable of playing in the postseason and guess what? He looked pretty good in game 4. Liljegren isn't a bruiser, but he isn't soft and he largely makes good decisions and is a good/very good passer which helps in getting the puck out of the Leafs own zone and that's why he should be in over Holl and Gio for sure by now.

Schenn looks fine, and I actually like him out their with Rielly, but keep in mind, he was barely a 6th D man on the Lightning's roster two year's ago. The reason Schenn looks so good on the Leafs D, is because it sucks. If they had any real defensemen, both Schenn and Giordano would not be needed to the extent that they are used.

Schenn was decent playing with Tampa and its hard to place him higher in the lineup when you have Hedman, Sergachev, Cernak and McDonagh as your top four. Its taken a long time, but Schenn has seemed to develop into a steady Dman with toughness. Its why even though he was only there for a couple of seasons Canucks fans were sad to see him get traded and had plenty of praise for him because he played so well for them. Heck I was skeptical of trading for him, but having seen him play with the Leafs, he's added much need toughness on the backend that so many complained that the Leafs lacked while still playing steady defense.

Just assumed same type of player Dubas has drafted year over year (skilled forwards under 6ft). But the point was not about Amirov, but rather about Dubas passing over two big, physical and mobile Canadian D men in Guhle and Schneider.

Whether Amirov was the correct pick or not excluding his illness is debatable, but I would still have been in favor of drafting a talented forward over a Dman unless a really good defense prospect dropped to their pick. As I've said before the Leafs have enough young Dmen in their system for the next few years and as we're seeing now in the playoffs you can NEVER have enough scoring talent on your roster so that when some players aren't getting it done you have other guys who can help with the offense.

Dubas had star players that couldn't win, but would command a high value on the trade market because of their potential. He should have made moves to compliment the core. Big part of the problem was what he paid all of M&M and Tavares, which limited his ability to build out the team. At that point, he needed to move one, to round out the team with a more balanced roster, but he didn't. He tried to rely on the draft, but as previously discussed was horrible on that front, and could not compliment his core with young players on rookie deals.

Dubas had young star players who were just starting to gain experience in the league. Not every young player can jump in and have immediate success and start leading their teams to playoff success and champions. You need really special players and a decent amount of luck to do that. Also I disagree that Tavares is overpaid because that's what it would cost if not more to sign a free agent of his caliber. Marner at most you could say might've been overpaid by a million or two, but its not like he was GROSSLY overpaid. Matthews its hard to say he's overpaid when he's your franchise center and all the people who complained that Nylander was overpaid are now saying his deal is great now.

Also the Oilers had McDavid and Drasaidtl who are perhaps the two best players in the league and they STILL missed the playoffs 3 out 4 of McDavid's first seasons there. Guess it was time to blow things up right? It took 9 seasons for MacKinnon to finally win a cup with the Avs and I remember there was some talk about perhaps moving him when he was putting up decent but not great numbers for a 1st overall pick. How big a mistake would that have been for the Avs having seen what kind of player he's turned into now?

I never said Tkachuk was the kind of player the Leafs need. That was someone else. I wouldn't build around either of them, unless I had no other choice. Sinking a huge chuck of your cap space into a winger generally doesn't result in a lot of success.

I disagree. Sinking your money into a great player isn't a bad thing at all regardless of their position. If Crosby were a winger instead of a center he'd still be the same amazing player that he is today and deserving of the big salary that he's getting.

Masai made the risky move, acquiring a player he knew would most likely not resign (Kawhi made his intentions known for awhile he wanted to go to LA), in order to win, in a league where it is extremely difficult to win.

Masai only had that opportunity because Kawhi didn't want to play for San Antonio anymore so good for Masai for jumping on a unique chance to get a great player. Ask yourself why genius Masai hasn't been able to get another star player like Kawhi before or since?

And you just proved the point. If you are a desirable market like LA, you get the stars, that lead to multiple championships. Toronto is not LA, but Masai managed to do what seemed impossible.

Toronto isn't desirable because its in Canada and to a lesser degree the weather isn't great for large parts of the year. Put LA in Toronto's location and Toronto in LA's location and all of a sudden Toronto would have no problems attracting stars while far fewer players would want to come to LA to play.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Marner has only looked good killing penalties. As soon as he's restricted from using his brain his elite instincts just take over. Own worst enemy. Matthews is sad. Plays like a sad man. I've seen people point out that when he's paired with Nylander he starts skating harder because Nylander is creating for him this series. He's the best player in this series by far and he hasn't had one dominant shift.

On the one hand it's a no-no to trade superstars. On the other, he's going to command 15 million/year long-term, his back is wonky and you know that there's probably 5-10 American teams that would overpay for him this summer.

Also, if the refs are going to let a lot of stuff go, take them up on the offer. Guys skating away from finishing checks on Bennett. Doesn't even have to be abusive, but the opportunity to give extra is really just Acciari, McCabe and Lafferty at this point.

[fbalmeida]

It really is a strange thing about Matthews, in terms of personal vibes. He always looks so incredibly sad, pouting like a kid whose BMX bike was just stolen. He's this incredibly lethal offensive weapon with a rare set of skills, capable of delivering instant joy to millions of people and stoking fear and disbelief in his opponents. Yet he constantly frowns underneath his questionably looking moustache.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Let’s go. First team to come back from 0-3 lol

[The Warrior]

Let’s go. First team to come back from 0-3 lol

It's been done before in hockey. I think 3 times or maybe it was 4.

[Fairview4Life]

Let’s go. First team to come back from 0-3 lol

It's been done before in hockey. I think 3 times or maybe it was 4.

https://www.cbssports.com/nhl/news/nhl-playoffs-revisiting-every-3-0-comeback-in-postseason-history-as-maple-leafs-try-to-turn-series-around/

[ItsDanger]

Its been done 4 times, out of maybe 200 chances. So 50-1 rough odds. Better than Raps chances at getting Wemby.

[JB7]

So wait you'd trade away a young star franchise center just because he didn't help bring home a championship by the time he hit 23? Really? Why even bother rebuilding when every few years you're going to turnover your roster of young players because they didn't win a championship or have great success in the first few years of their careers?

I mean I can understand thinking about moving a star player when they've been around for a number of years and they're nearing their 30s. By that time they've been in the league for a long time and you can evaluate their body of work and decide if they should stay or not, but moving a top player their early 20s? That makes no sense unless the player wants out.

The moment the Leafs drafted Matthews, the clock started ticking. He is a US born star, drafted 1st overall, and was projected to be a superstar player, like a McDavid, Crosby, Ovie. The league is 2/3rds US teams. US teams, no matter what the sport, love having US stars. So finally a big time US born star in hockey comes along, it seems like it is only a matter of time before he leaves for the bigger US market.

Even before Matthews signed his extension, I think the Leafs were worried about him forcing his way out, and that is why they signed Tavares, as a backup plan in case Matthews did force his way out. Even the extension signed (5 years), while giving him a contract comparable to McDavid, only bought one year of free agency (McDavid's extension was 8 years and bought 4 years of FA). Matthews was looking to get to FA as quick as possible. Two reasons. One, to be able to set the benchmark for salary absent of the pressure of McDavid's deal (he couldn't justify asking for more than McDavid when he signed the extension, but since his deal expires before McDavid's, he can now ask for the limit). Two, gives Matthews the option of going south of the border.

I honestly don't see Matthews spending his whole career in Toronto, and therefore, move him when his value is at its peak, which would have been one or two years ago. Now whatever team is trading for him, is trading for a one year window to negotiate with him to convince him to stay.

Holl isn't useless lets just put it that way. Just that his role shouldn't be as large as it is much of the time. Liljegren has played very well for much of the regular season and that absolutely should earn him a shot in the playoffs to prove himself that he's capable of playing in the postseason and guess what? He looked pretty good in game 4. Liljegren isn't a bruiser, but he isn't soft and he largely makes good decisions and is a good/very good passer which helps in getting the puck out of the Leafs own zone and that's why he should be in over Holl and Gio for sure by now.

Liljegren and Holl, while decent at moving the puck, are not better than Rielly, Brodie and McCabe at doing it, and none of those players would be considered bruisers. The back end needs some bruisers to wear down the opposition. Playoffs are a grind because of these style of players who are there to wear down the opposition over the course of a series. That's why a Schenn and Gio get time over Liljegren and Holl. Plus Schenn and Gio are probably trusted more to take the hit to make a play.

Schenn was decent playing with Tampa and its hard to place him higher in the lineup when you have Hedman, Sergachev, Cernak and McDonagh as your top four. Its taken a long time, but Schenn has seemed to develop into a steady Dman with toughness. Its why even though he was only there for a couple of seasons Canucks fans were sad to see him get traded and had plenty of praise for him because he played so well for them. Heck I was skeptical of trading for him, but having seen him play with the Leafs, he's added much need toughness on the backend that so many complained that the Leafs lacked while still playing steady defense.

The goal the Leafs are targeting is a Stanley Cup win. Tampa had a championship level defense, and on that D, Schenn could never break into the top 4 (who would play 90% of the minutes). The fact that Schenn plays in the top 4 of the Leafs D just shows how far this team is off from having a D that can compete for a championship, and most Stanley Cup winners are built from the back end out.

Whether Amirov was the correct pick or not excluding his illness is debatable, but I would still have been in favor of drafting a talented forward over a Dman unless a really good defense prospect dropped to their pick. As I've said before the Leafs have enough young Dmen in their system for the next few years and as we're seeing now in the playoffs you can NEVER have enough scoring talent on your roster so that when some players aren't getting it done you have other guys who can help with the offense.

Winning in the playoffs is about D. This is exactly the problem with the Leafs. They are built almost primarily with a focus on offence and puck control, over D. The Leafs had and have nothing in their system like Guhle and Schneider. The moment they had the opportunity to draft that type of talent on the back end, they should have immediately taken it. When they chose Amirov (as a representation of their focus completely on offensive players) over Guhle and Schneider, I knew immediately the Leafs under Dubas would never change, and would never make it near a Cup final. Funny that it was the Canadians (a team that knows success) drafted Guhle immediately after the Amirov pick. In terms of offence for the playoffs, all the team really needs is a great powerplay. Why I would keep players like Rielly, Nylander and Tavares. The most opportunities they'll get to score will come on the powerplay. The rest of the goals scored in the playoffs are usually grinder goals, or goals converted off of mistakes.

Dubas had young star players who were just starting to gain experience in the league. Not every young player can jump in and have immediate success and start leading their teams to playoff success and champions. You need really special players and a decent amount of luck to do that. Also I disagree that Tavares is overpaid because that's what it would cost if not more to sign a free agent of his caliber. Marner at most you could say might've been overpaid by a million or two, but its not like he was GROSSLY overpaid. Matthews its hard to say he's overpaid when he's your franchise center and all the people who complained that Nylander was overpaid are now saying his deal is great now.

Crosby (4 years in the league) and Malkin (3 years in the league) won a Cup. Those are the types of players Matthews is being compared to, in terms of potential. So him being able to lead the Leafs at least to a conference finals after 5 years in the league (especially the COVID playoffs where they were almost guaranteed a conference finals) is not crazy to think.

I agree. Tavares is not overpaid in the sense it is what he commanded. If anything, I think San Jose would have paid him more in his FA, and he took less to come home. But, if 50% of your salary cap is taken up by 4 players on your roster, it will be hard to build a team around that, especially when all 4 players are forwards. If that four covered your goaltender and top D (that was championship level), with two forwards (preferably C's) then that is a different story.

Also the Oilers had McDavid and Drasaidtl who are perhaps the two best players in the league and they STILL missed the playoffs 3 out 4 of McDavid's first seasons there. Guess it was time to blow things up right? It took 9 seasons for MacKinnon to finally win a cup with the Avs and I remember there was some talk about perhaps moving him when he was putting up decent but not great numbers for a 1st overall pick. How big a mistake would that have been for the Avs having seen what kind of player he's turned into now?

Connor, as the best player in the world, is only making $12.5M on an 8 year extension. Draisaitl is only making $8.5M, also on an 8 year extension. Both are C's. They are exactly what you want to build with. Problem for Edmonton is location. They need to overpay FAs to get them to come, which wastes cap room, and they have not drafted and developed well around those two.

MacKinnon was on a very cheap deal, and hugely productive. Perfect player to build around then. Now with his extension, a different story. Still a great player, but he'll be 28 in the first year of an 8 year extension at $12.6M. They probably have a two year window until things really go off the rails for them. Losing Kadri in FA and Landeskog to injury was already a big hit to them this year. In two years their goaltender and Rantanen are FAs.

I disagree. Sinking your money into a great player isn't a bad thing at all regardless of their position. If Crosby were a winger instead of a center he'd still be the same amazing player that he is today and deserving of the big salary that he's getting.

Have you ever played the game? The players that influence the game the most are: goaltenders (play the whole game), top D (can play up to half the game and can control the flow of the game), and top C (play a third of the game, and are responsible to control the play in all zones). No matter how great wingers are, their influence is limited. So if a team has limited cap space to spend, to win you typically want to invest it in those key areas. Now, that doesn't mean overpaying a middle of the pack goaltender or D as a top option (if you could not acquire a top G or D), then yes, putting your money into a top level winger may make more sense.

Toronto isn't desirable because its in Canada and to a lesser degree the weather isn't great for large parts of the year. Put LA in Toronto's location and Toronto in LA's location and all of a sudden Toronto would have no problems attracting stars while far fewer players would want to come to LA to play.

I don't understand this point. It is exactly what I was saying. Toronto cannot attract the same level of talent as LA, and therefore needs to be more creative and bold in trying to acquire the talent to win, which Masai did.

Or are you just saying if we start referring to our city as LA, maybe we could confuse some stars and get them to sign Make sure they only come to see the city in the summer

[Clay Davis]

Its been done 4 times, out of maybe 200 chances. So 50-1 rough odds. Better than Raps chances at getting Wemby.

I mean, looking at it like that... we only had a 3% better chance to get out of the first round

[WaltFrazier]

It really is a strange thing about Matthews, in terms of personal vibes. He always looks so incredibly sad, pouting like a kid whose BMX bike was just stolen. He's this incredibly lethal offensive weapon with a rare set of skills, capable of delivering instant joy to millions of people and stoking fear and disbelief in his opponents. Yet he constantly frowns underneath his questionably looking moustache.

[will]

Let's go Leafs
Let's go Leafs

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Its been done 4 times, out of maybe 200 chances. So 50-1 rough odds. Better than Raps chances at getting Wemby.

still, lets go.

as a Canadiens fan.

[fbalmeida]

Its been done 4 times, out of maybe 200 chances. So 50-1 rough odds. Better than Raps chances at getting Wemby.

still, lets go.

as a Canadiens fan.

This is admirable and I acknowledge you for it. All while admitting I could never possibly bring myself to cheer for the Habs in any circumstances. The asymmetry of success and historical institutional unfairness - Sam Pollack was de facto running the NHL to his benefit while we had Harold **** Ballard - is just too great for me to overlook.

I hate the Habs guts is what I'm saying.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

Its been done 4 times, out of maybe 200 chances. So 50-1 rough odds. Better than Raps chances at getting Wemby.

still, lets go.

as a Canadiens fan.

This is admirable and I acknowledge you for it. All while admitting I could never possibly bring myself to cheer for the Habs in any circumstances. The asymmetry of success and historical institutional unfairness - Sam Pollack was de facto running the NHL to his benefit while we had Harold **** Ballard - is just too great for me to overlook.

I hate the Habs guts is what I'm saying.

i get it.

[mdenny]

So wait you'd trade away a young star franchise center just because he didn't help bring home a championship by the time he hit 23? Really? Why even bother rebuilding when every few years you're going to turnover your roster of young players because they didn't win a championship or have great success in the first few years of their careers?

I mean I can understand thinking about moving a star player when they've been around for a number of years and they're nearing their 30s. By that time they've been in the league for a long time and you can evaluate their body of work and decide if they should stay or not, but moving a top player their early 20s? That makes no sense unless the player wants out.

The moment the Leafs drafted Matthews, the clock started ticking. He is a US born star, drafted 1st overall, and was projected to be a superstar player, like a McDavid, Crosby, Ovie. The league is 2/3rds US teams. US teams, no matter what the sport, love having US stars. So finally a big time US born star in hockey comes along, it seems like it is only a matter of time before he leaves for the bigger US market.

Even before Matthews signed his extension, I think the Leafs were worried about him forcing his way out, and that is why they signed Tavares, as a backup plan in case Matthews did force his way out. Even the extension signed (5 years), while giving him a contract comparable to McDavid, only bought one year of free agency (McDavid's extension was 8 years and bought 4 years of FA). Matthews was looking to get to FA as quick as possible. Two reasons. One, to be able to set the benchmark for salary absent of the pressure of McDavid's deal (he couldn't justify asking for more than McDavid when he signed the extension, but since his deal expires before McDavid's, he can now ask for the limit). Two, gives Matthews the option of going south of the border.

I honestly don't see Matthews spending his whole career in Toronto, and therefore, move him when his value is at its peak, which would have been one or two years ago. Now whatever team is trading for him, is trading for a one year window to negotiate with him to convince him to stay.

Holl isn't useless lets just put it that way. Just that his role shouldn't be as large as it is much of the time. Liljegren has played very well for much of the regular season and that absolutely should earn him a shot in the playoffs to prove himself that he's capable of playing in the postseason and guess what? He looked pretty good in game 4. Liljegren isn't a bruiser, but he isn't soft and he largely makes good decisions and is a good/very good passer which helps in getting the puck out of the Leafs own zone and that's why he should be in over Holl and Gio for sure by now.

Liljegren and Holl, while decent at moving the puck, are not better than Rielly, Brodie and McCabe at doing it, and none of those players would be considered bruisers. The back end needs some bruisers to wear down the opposition. Playoffs are a grind because of these style of players who are there to wear down the opposition over the course of a series. That's why a Schenn and Gio get time over Liljegren and Holl. Plus Schenn and Gio are probably trusted more to take the hit to make a play.

Schenn was decent playing with Tampa and its hard to place him higher in the lineup when you have Hedman, Sergachev, Cernak and McDonagh as your top four. Its taken a long time, but Schenn has seemed to develop into a steady Dman with toughness. Its why even though he was only there for a couple of seasons Canucks fans were sad to see him get traded and had plenty of praise for him because he played so well for them. Heck I was skeptical of trading for him, but having seen him play with the Leafs, he's added much need toughness on the backend that so many complained that the Leafs lacked while still playing steady defense.

The goal the Leafs are targeting is a Stanley Cup win. Tampa had a championship level defense, and on that D, Schenn could never break into the top 4 (who would play 90% of the minutes). The fact that Schenn plays in the top 4 of the Leafs D just shows how far this team is off from having a D that can compete for a championship, and most Stanley Cup winners are built from the back end out.

Whether Amirov was the correct pick or not excluding his illness is debatable, but I would still have been in favor of drafting a talented forward over a Dman unless a really good defense prospect dropped to their pick. As I've said before the Leafs have enough young Dmen in their system for the next few years and as we're seeing now in the playoffs you can NEVER have enough scoring talent on your roster so that when some players aren't getting it done you have other guys who can help with the offense.

Winning in the playoffs is about D. This is exactly the problem with the Leafs. They are built almost primarily with a focus on offence and puck control, over D. The Leafs had and have nothing in their system like Guhle and Schneider. The moment they had the opportunity to draft that type of talent on the back end, they should have immediately taken it. When they chose Amirov (as a representation of their focus completely on offensive players) over Guhle and Schneider, I knew immediately the Leafs under Dubas would never change, and would never make it near a Cup final. Funny that it was the Canadians (a team that knows success) drafted Guhle immediately after the Amirov pick. In terms of offence for the playoffs, all the team really needs is a great powerplay. Why I would keep players like Rielly, Nylander and Tavares. The most opportunities they'll get to score will come on the powerplay. The rest of the goals scored in the playoffs are usually grinder goals, or goals converted off of mistakes.

Dubas had young star players who were just starting to gain experience in the league. Not every young player can jump in and have immediate success and start leading their teams to playoff success and champions. You need really special players and a decent amount of luck to do that. Also I disagree that Tavares is overpaid because that's what it would cost if not more to sign a free agent of his caliber. Marner at most you could say might've been overpaid by a million or two, but its not like he was GROSSLY overpaid. Matthews its hard to say he's overpaid when he's your franchise center and all the people who complained that Nylander was overpaid are now saying his deal is great now.

Crosby (4 years in the league) and Malkin (3 years in the league) won a Cup. Those are the types of players Matthews is being compared to, in terms of potential. So him being able to lead the Leafs at least to a conference finals after 5 years in the league (especially the COVID playoffs where they were almost guaranteed a conference finals) is not crazy to think.

I agree. Tavares is not overpaid in the sense it is what he commanded. If anything, I think San Jose would have paid him more in his FA, and he took less to come home. But, if 50% of your salary cap is taken up by 4 players on your roster, it will be hard to build a team around that, especially when all 4 players are forwards. If that four covered your goaltender and top D (that was championship level), with two forwards (preferably C's) then that is a different story.

Also the Oilers had McDavid and Drasaidtl who are perhaps the two best players in the league and they STILL missed the playoffs 3 out 4 of McDavid's first seasons there. Guess it was time to blow things up right? It took 9 seasons for MacKinnon to finally win a cup with the Avs and I remember there was some talk about perhaps moving him when he was putting up decent but not great numbers for a 1st overall pick. How big a mistake would that have been for the Avs having seen what kind of player he's turned into now?

Connor, as the best player in the world, is only making $12.5M on an 8 year extension. Draisaitl is only making $8.5M, also on an 8 year extension. Both are C's. They are exactly what you want to build with. Problem for Edmonton is location. They need to overpay FAs to get them to come, which wastes cap room, and they have not drafted and developed well around those two.

MacKinnon was on a very cheap deal, and hugely productive. Perfect player to build around then. Now with his extension, a different story. Still a great player, but he'll be 28 in the first year of an 8 year extension at $12.6M. They probably have a two year window until things really go off the rails for them. Losing Kadri in FA and Landeskog to injury was already a big hit to them this year. In two years their goaltender and Rantanen are FAs.

I disagree. Sinking your money into a great player isn't a bad thing at all regardless of their position. If Crosby were a winger instead of a center he'd still be the same amazing player that he is today and deserving of the big salary that he's getting.

Have you ever played the game? The players that influence the game the most are: goaltenders (play the whole game), top D (can play up to half the game and can control the flow of the game), and top C (play a third of the game, and are responsible to control the play in all zones). No matter how great wingers are, their influence is limited. So if a team has limited cap space to spend, to win you typically want to invest it in those key areas. Now, that doesn't mean overpaying a middle of the pack goaltender or D as a top option (if you could not acquire a top G or D), then yes, putting your money into a top level winger may make more sense.

Toronto isn't desirable because its in Canada and to a lesser degree the weather isn't great for large parts of the year. Put LA in Toronto's location and Toronto in LA's location and all of a sudden Toronto would have no problems attracting stars while far fewer players would want to come to LA to play.

I don't understand this point. It is exactly what I was saying. Toronto cannot attract the same level of talent as LA, and therefore needs to be more creative and bold in trying to acquire the talent to win, which Masai did.

Or are you just saying if we start referring to our city as LA, maybe we could confuse some stars and get them to sign Make sure they only come to see the city in the summer

Agreed. I don't think leaf fans realize how great the risk is with matthews leaving. You don't see it discussed very much on sports media outlets or on social media.

I'm not sure about the pertinent rules but I know next season is his last contract year. If he doesn't sign an extension than I suspect they might have to trade him. Him leaving for nothing would reset the whole franchise once again.

Anyone know if he can extend this summer? Do hockey teams need to match salary? If he turns down extension then maybe we can trade him to a team for whom he DOES sign an extension and then we'll get something close to market value rather than the one year rental value.

[rocky_da_best]

It really is a strange thing about Matthews, in terms of personal vibes. He always looks so incredibly sad, pouting like a kid whose BMX bike was just stolen. He's this incredibly lethal offensive weapon with a rare set of skills, capable of delivering instant joy to millions of people and stoking fear and disbelief in his opponents. Yet he constantly frowns underneath his questionably looking moustache.

Lord. I know you guys read into everything with the Raptors guys like Freddy but can we at least the Leafs players alone on this forum

[JB7]

Agreed. I don't think leaf fans realize how great the risk is with matthews leaving. You don't see it discussed very much on sports media outlets or on social media.

I'm not sure about the pertinent rules but I know next season is his last contract year. If he doesn't sign an extension than I suspect they might have to trade him. Him leaving for nothing would reset the whole franchise once again.

Anyone know if he can extend this summer? Do hockey teams need to match salary? If he turns down extension then maybe we can trade him to a team for whom he DOES sign an extension and then we'll get something close to market value rather than the one year rental value.

Matthews has a NMC that kicks in on his last year. Since July 1st I believe is free agency, do all contracts run July 1st to June 30th, and therefore the Leafs have just over a month until his NMC kicks in?

[fbalmeida]

It really is a strange thing about Matthews, in terms of personal vibes. He always looks so incredibly sad, pouting like a kid whose BMX bike was just stolen. He's this incredibly lethal offensive weapon with a rare set of skills, capable of delivering instant joy to millions of people and stoking fear and disbelief in his opponents. Yet he constantly frowns underneath his questionably looking moustache.

Lord. I know you guys read into everything with the Raptors guys like Freddy but can we at least the Leafs players alone on this forum

Kinda hard not to. Afterall sports is kind of like a soap opera for men.

[wegotthabeet]

So wait you'd trade away a young star franchise center just because he didn't help bring home a championship by the time he hit 23? Really? Why even bother rebuilding when every few years you're going to turnover your roster of young players because they didn't win a championship or have great success in the first few years of their careers?

I mean I can understand thinking about moving a star player when they've been around for a number of years and they're nearing their 30s. By that time they've been in the league for a long time and you can evaluate their body of work and decide if they should stay or not, but moving a top player their early 20s? That makes no sense unless the player wants out.

The moment the Leafs drafted Matthews, the clock started ticking. He is a US born star, drafted 1st overall, and was projected to be a superstar player, like a McDavid, Crosby, Ovie. The league is 2/3rds US teams. US teams, no matter what the sport, love having US stars. So finally a big time US born star in hockey comes along, it seems like it is only a matter of time before he leaves for the bigger US market.

Even before Matthews signed his extension, I think the Leafs were worried about him forcing his way out, and that is why they signed Tavares, as a backup plan in case Matthews did force his way out. Even the extension signed (5 years), while giving him a contract comparable to McDavid, only bought one year of free agency (McDavid's extension was 8 years and bought 4 years of FA). Matthews was looking to get to FA as quick as possible. Two reasons. One, to be able to set the benchmark for salary absent of the pressure of McDavid's deal (he couldn't justify asking for more than McDavid when he signed the extension, but since his deal expires before McDavid's, he can now ask for the limit). Two, gives Matthews the option of going south of the border.

I honestly don't see Matthews spending his whole career in Toronto, and therefore, move him when his value is at its peak, which would have been one or two years ago. Now whatever team is trading for him, is trading for a one year window to negotiate with him to convince him to stay.

Holl isn't useless lets just put it that way. Just that his role shouldn't be as large as it is much of the time. Liljegren has played very well for much of the regular season and that absolutely should earn him a shot in the playoffs to prove himself that he's capable of playing in the postseason and guess what? He looked pretty good in game 4. Liljegren isn't a bruiser, but he isn't soft and he largely makes good decisions and is a good/very good passer which helps in getting the puck out of the Leafs own zone and that's why he should be in over Holl and Gio for sure by now.

Liljegren and Holl, while decent at moving the puck, are not better than Rielly, Brodie and McCabe at doing it, and none of those players would be considered bruisers. The back end needs some bruisers to wear down the opposition. Playoffs are a grind because of these style of players who are there to wear down the opposition over the course of a series. That's why a Schenn and Gio get time over Liljegren and Holl. Plus Schenn and Gio are probably trusted more to take the hit to make a play.

Schenn was decent playing with Tampa and its hard to place him higher in the lineup when you have Hedman, Sergachev, Cernak and McDonagh as your top four. Its taken a long time, but Schenn has seemed to develop into a steady Dman with toughness. Its why even though he was only there for a couple of seasons Canucks fans were sad to see him get traded and had plenty of praise for him because he played so well for them. Heck I was skeptical of trading for him, but having seen him play with the Leafs, he's added much need toughness on the backend that so many complained that the Leafs lacked while still playing steady defense.

The goal the Leafs are targeting is a Stanley Cup win. Tampa had a championship level defense, and on that D, Schenn could never break into the top 4 (who would play 90% of the minutes). The fact that Schenn plays in the top 4 of the Leafs D just shows how far this team is off from having a D that can compete for a championship, and most Stanley Cup winners are built from the back end out.

Whether Amirov was the correct pick or not excluding his illness is debatable, but I would still have been in favor of drafting a talented forward over a Dman unless a really good defense prospect dropped to their pick. As I've said before the Leafs have enough young Dmen in their system for the next few years and as we're seeing now in the playoffs you can NEVER have enough scoring talent on your roster so that when some players aren't getting it done you have other guys who can help with the offense.

Winning in the playoffs is about D. This is exactly the problem with the Leafs. They are built almost primarily with a focus on offence and puck control, over D. The Leafs had and have nothing in their system like Guhle and Schneider. The moment they had the opportunity to draft that type of talent on the back end, they should have immediately taken it. When they chose Amirov (as a representation of their focus completely on offensive players) over Guhle and Schneider, I knew immediately the Leafs under Dubas would never change, and would never make it near a Cup final. Funny that it was the Canadians (a team that knows success) drafted Guhle immediately after the Amirov pick. In terms of offence for the playoffs, all the team really needs is a great powerplay. Why I would keep players like Rielly, Nylander and Tavares. The most opportunities they'll get to score will come on the powerplay. The rest of the goals scored in the playoffs are usually grinder goals, or goals converted off of mistakes.

Dubas had young star players who were just starting to gain experience in the league. Not every young player can jump in and have immediate success and start leading their teams to playoff success and champions. You need really special players and a decent amount of luck to do that. Also I disagree that Tavares is overpaid because that's what it would cost if not more to sign a free agent of his caliber. Marner at most you could say might've been overpaid by a million or two, but its not like he was GROSSLY overpaid. Matthews its hard to say he's overpaid when he's your franchise center and all the people who complained that Nylander was overpaid are now saying his deal is great now.

Crosby (4 years in the league) and Malkin (3 years in the league) won a Cup. Those are the types of players Matthews is being compared to, in terms of potential. So him being able to lead the Leafs at least to a conference finals after 5 years in the league (especially the COVID playoffs where they were almost guaranteed a conference finals) is not crazy to think.

I agree. Tavares is not overpaid in the sense it is what he commanded. If anything, I think San Jose would have paid him more in his FA, and he took less to come home. But, if 50% of your salary cap is taken up by 4 players on your roster, it will be hard to build a team around that, especially when all 4 players are forwards. If that four covered your goaltender and top D (that was championship level), with two forwards (preferably C's) then that is a different story.

Also the Oilers had McDavid and Drasaidtl who are perhaps the two best players in the league and they STILL missed the playoffs 3 out 4 of McDavid's first seasons there. Guess it was time to blow things up right? It took 9 seasons for MacKinnon to finally win a cup with the Avs and I remember there was some talk about perhaps moving him when he was putting up decent but not great numbers for a 1st overall pick. How big a mistake would that have been for the Avs having seen what kind of player he's turned into now?

Connor, as the best player in the world, is only making $12.5M on an 8 year extension. Draisaitl is only making $8.5M, also on an 8 year extension. Both are C's. They are exactly what you want to build with. Problem for Edmonton is location. They need to overpay FAs to get them to come, which wastes cap room, and they have not drafted and developed well around those two.

MacKinnon was on a very cheap deal, and hugely productive. Perfect player to build around then. Now with his extension, a different story. Still a great player, but he'll be 28 in the first year of an 8 year extension at $12.6M. They probably have a two year window until things really go off the rails for them. Losing Kadri in FA and Landeskog to injury was already a big hit to them this year. In two years their goaltender and Rantanen are FAs.

I disagree. Sinking your money into a great player isn't a bad thing at all regardless of their position. If Crosby were a winger instead of a center he'd still be the same amazing player that he is today and deserving of the big salary that he's getting.

Have you ever played the game? The players that influence the game the most are: goaltenders (play the whole game), top D (can play up to half the game and can control the flow of the game), and top C (play a third of the game, and are responsible to control the play in all zones). No matter how great wingers are, their influence is limited. So if a team has limited cap space to spend, to win you typically want to invest it in those key areas. Now, that doesn't mean overpaying a middle of the pack goaltender or D as a top option (if you could not acquire a top G or D), then yes, putting your money into a top level winger may make more sense.

Toronto isn't desirable because its in Canada and to a lesser degree the weather isn't great for large parts of the year. Put LA in Toronto's location and Toronto in LA's location and all of a sudden Toronto would have no problems attracting stars while far fewer players would want to come to LA to play.

I don't understand this point. It is exactly what I was saying. Toronto cannot attract the same level of talent as LA, and therefore needs to be more creative and bold in trying to acquire the talent to win, which Masai did.

Or are you just saying if we start referring to our city as LA, maybe we could confuse some stars and get them to sign Make sure they only come to see the city in the summer

Agreed. I don't think leaf fans realize how great the risk is with matthews leaving. You don't see it discussed very much on sports media outlets or on social media.

I'm not sure about the pertinent rules but I know next season is his last contract year. If he doesn't sign an extension than I suspect they might have to trade him. Him leaving for nothing would reset the whole franchise once again.

Anyone know if he can extend this summer? Do hockey teams need to match salary? If he turns down extension then maybe we can trade him to a team for whom he DOES sign an extension and then we'll get something close to market value rather than the one year rental value.

there's a > 90% chance Matthews stays in Toronto. this isn't like the Kawhi situation and the Leafs are viewed in a completely different light than the Raps for free agents in the NHL.

[Los_29]

I can't imagine Matthews leaving the Leafs. And there is absolutely no reason to trade him. I don't think people realize how rare it is to have a player like Matthews. He's universally regarded as an elite player. In the playoffs he's averaging around a point a game.

As frustrating as this series has been, it could easily be a 2-2 series or even a 3-1 series in favour of us. Every game has been extremely competitive. It's been the most competitive 2nd round matchup thus far.