Magic or Bird 80's

[SNPA]

I maintain it’s easier for a defense to face a helio, this is different for a hub though.

Ask Pistons who is tougher to guard.

"If you put all of us in a room -- Magic, Jordan, myself and Bird -- Bird would probably be the guy who walks out of the room at the end of the day," says Isiah Thomas on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.

[SNPA]

Magic got steals, but other non great defenders have lead the league in steals. If you are willing to gamble and/or have a front court that can cover you don’t have to be a great defender to get steals (AI). The block numbers are impressive compared to guards but the guy was the size of a forward and didn’t defend PG’s.

Meanwhile.

Bird lead the league in defensive win shares 4 times. The only other players with more are Mikan, Russell, Duncan and he is tied with Hakeem (Bird finishes second twice too). Two sides to the ball.

[70sFan]

I maintain it’s easier for a defense to face a helio, this is different for a hub though.

Ask Pistons who is tougher to guard.

"If you put all of us in a room -- Magic, Jordan, myself and Bird -- Bird would probably be the guy who walks out of the room at the end of the day," says Isiah Thomas on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.

Such a shame it didn't work in 1988.

[70sFan]

Magic got steals, but other non great defenders have lead the league in steals. If you are willing to gamble and/or have a front court that can cover you don’t have to be a great defender to get steals (AI). The block numbers are impressive compared to guards but the guy was the size of a forward and didn’t defend PG’s.

Meanwhile.

Bird lead the league in defensive win shares 4 times. The only other players with more are Mikan, Russell, Duncan and he is tied with Hakeem (Bird finishes second twice too). Two sides to the ball.

Do you know what DWS measure? If not, then why do you view it as an important stat?

[SNPA]

Magic got steals, but other non great defenders have lead the league in steals. If you are willing to gamble and/or have a front court that can cover you don’t have to be a great defender to get steals (AI). The block numbers are impressive compared to guards but the guy was the size of a forward and didn’t defend PG’s.

Meanwhile.

Bird lead the league in defensive win shares 4 times. The only other players with more are Mikan, Russell, Duncan and he is tied with Hakeem (Bird finishes second twice too). Two sides to the ball.

Do you know what DWS measure? If not, then why do you view it as an important stat?

I don’t value it, I think it’s stupid. But it’s how people like to debate on this board.

[70sFan]

Magic got steals, but other non great defenders have lead the league in steals. If you are willing to gamble and/or have a front court that can cover you don’t have to be a great defender to get steals (AI). The block numbers are impressive compared to guards but the guy was the size of a forward and didn’t defend PG’s.

Meanwhile.

Bird lead the league in defensive win shares 4 times. The only other players with more are Mikan, Russell, Duncan and he is tied with Hakeem (Bird finishes second twice too). Two sides to the ball.

Do you know what DWS measure? If not, then why do you view it as an important stat?

I don’t value it, I think it’s stupid. But it’s how people like to debate on this board.

No, basically nobody values DWS at this point.

[SNPA]

Do you know what DWS measure? If not, then why do you view it as an important stat?

I don’t value it, I think it’s stupid. But it’s how people like to debate on this board.

No, basically nobody values DWS at this point.

Progress. More formula stats to go.

[ty 4191]

Do you know what DWS measure? If not, then why do you view it as an important stat?

I don’t value it, I think it’s stupid. But it’s how people like to debate on this board.

No, basically nobody values DWS at this point.

70s, are you making the case that Bird wasn't significantly better defensively than Magic?

[HeartBreakKid]

I don’t value it, I think it’s stupid. But it’s how people like to debate on this board.

No, basically nobody values DWS at this point.

70s, are you making the case that Bird wasn't significantly better defensively than Magic?

I think he's making the case that DWS isn't very useful

[ty 4191]

No, basically nobody values DWS at this point.

70s, are you making the case that Bird wasn't significantly better defensively than Magic?

I think he's making the case that DWS isn't very useful

I see that. So what defensive metrics from the 1980's should we be using?

[HeartBreakKid]

70s, are you making the case that Bird wasn't significantly better defensively than Magic?

I think he's making the case that DWS isn't very useful

I see that. So what defensive metrics from the 1980's should we be using?

I dont think there are any good ones from that time period

[70sFan]

70s, are you making the case that Bird wasn't significantly better defensively than Magic?

I think he's making the case that DWS isn't very useful

I see that. So what defensive metrics from the 1980's should we be using?

Unfortunately, I don't think there are any reliable defensive metrics for the 1980s. The best we can do is to watch as many games as possible and try to evaluate defenders by the very extensive eye test.

I think Bird was a little more valuable defensively than Magic due to his more consistent effort and better motor, but the gap is far from game changing to me. People started to overrate Bird defensively on this board recently.

[LakerLegend]

Magic was 3 years younger and his numbers in head 2 head Finals are clearly better:

Magic Johnson 20.7 PTS 7.5 REB 13.5 AST 53.3 FG% 40.0 3PT% 83.8 FT%

Larry Bird 25.3 PTS 11.1 REB 4.6 AST 46.0 FG% 47.8 3PT% 86.4 FT%

Magic has major edges in efficiency and assists, averaged more steals too. Generally speaking Magic was pretty clearly the better postseason player overall IMO.

Bird was a better shooter, but Magic was a bigger mismatch because of his size at his position, speed on the break, and ballhandling ability. Don't forget Magic also had years where he led the league in steals.