How many centers in NBA history were better on offense at their peak than current Jokic?

[INKtastic]

This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.

I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.

Wilt

[OdomFan]

Patrick Ewing was just as skilled. Could shoot the ball well, finish at the rim, etc. Even after the injuries to a stand point. I'm including him.

Then there's of course Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, and Shaq.

Lmao bro no freaking way. People have a tendency to overrate 90s players so hard. Jokic wins 2 straight MVPs, should have been 3. All MVPs due to his offense, not defense. But somehow Patrick Ewing was better offensively at his peak. That's ridiculous.

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

[cupcakesnake]

This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.

I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.

Jokic probably studied Hakeem when he learned how to play basketball.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt . That’s it

Wilt, Kareem and Shqa better than Jokic on offense (even), but on more stacked teams
a case would be Hakeem too

I get why people are considering Hakeem. Big scoring numbers, sick post moves, clear #1 on b2b title teams without an obviously stacked roster. But I think it's pretty clear that Hakeem is not in a tier with these guys offensively. Bring defense into the equation and he obviously is in any center conversation, but offensively there are some clear indicators he's a step down.

Hakeem is by far the least impressive passer of this group by any measurement. Shaq would be the closest to him, but peak Shaq (vs. peak Dream) averages more assists and less turnovers. On tape, Shaq is clearly the more willing passer of the 2 players. By assist percentage, Shaq is closer to prime Wilt than prime Dream.

And then there's scoring. Hakeem isn't in the same scoring volume tier as Jokic and Shaq (but compares just fine to Kareem and Wilt), and he's dead last in this group in terms of scoring efficiency. Hakeem simply did not generate easy offense like the rest of these guys did. He had to work harder for his points with his strong array of post moves. Kareem had the sky hook, Shaq had the deep seal, Wilt had the massive size advantage, and Jokic has the soft touch from everywhere. Using league adjusted stats (FG Add, TS Add, rTS%) Hakeem is not anywhere neat these other 4.

I'm not saying Hakeem isn't on their level. But I think it's a misconception that Hakeem is on this level offensively. He gets a ton of value on defense. As a scorer he's more: really great, rather than all-time best ever at his position.

[cupcakesnake]

This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.

I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.

Wilt

Already added Wilt a couple posts below the one you quoted. I agree.

[Chokic]

Kareem
Wilt
Embiid


That's it

[The Moose]

Patrick Ewing was just as skilled. Could shoot the ball well, finish at the rim, etc. Even after the injuries to a stand point. I'm including him.

Then there's of course Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, and Shaq.

Lmao bro no freaking way. People have a tendency to overrate 90s players so hard. Jokic wins 2 straight MVPs, should have been 3. All MVPs due to his offense, not defense. But somehow Patrick Ewing was better offensively at his peak. That's ridiculous.

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

[Sedale Threatt]

Lmao bro no freaking way. People have a tendency to overrate 90s players so hard. Jokic wins 2 straight MVPs, should have been 3. All MVPs due to his offense, not defense. But somehow Patrick Ewing was better offensively at his peak. That's ridiculous.

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

This is where people need to define what they're talking about with "skill," because Jokic is one of the most versatile, multi-faceted players of all time. Not just centers, players. Even if he was just a post-up machine who couldn't pass/shoot he'd still be incredibly dangerous. Add those abilities and he's almost unguardable. Outside of having a nice spot up jump shot, I don't remember Ewing being particularly skillful at all. He certainly couldn't handle the ball and distribute like Jokic.

[Pharmcat]

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

This is where people need to define what they're talking about with "skill," because Jokic is one of the most versatile, multi-faceted players of all time. Not just centers, players. Even if he was just a post-up machine who couldn't pass/shoot he'd still be incredibly dangerous. Add those abilities and he's almost unguardable. Outside of having a nice spot up jump shot, I don't remember Ewing being particularly skillful at all. He certainly couldn't handle the ball and distribute like Jokic.

But you have to factor in the era: defense isnt even allowed to played these days , big guys as a whole have been phased out, and recency bias. People have forgotten how great Shaq was , he instilled fear into
The opposition. Don’t get that feeling with jokic.

[Taj FTW]

Patrick Ewing was just as skilled. Could shoot the ball well, finish at the rim, etc. Even after the injuries to a stand point. I'm including him.

Then there's of course Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, and Shaq.

Lmao bro no freaking way. People have a tendency to overrate 90s players so hard. Jokic wins 2 straight MVPs, should have been 3. All MVPs due to his offense, not defense. But somehow Patrick Ewing was better offensively at his peak. That's ridiculous.

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The question was "how many centers were better offensively at their peak than Jokic?". You answered Patrick freaking Ewing. Quite frankly he isn't even close to Jokic offensively. Even if you say "skilled" instead of "who is better", it isn't even close. Jokic is on another level than Ewing. The MVPs and stats show this.

Well throw this one into the same category as your famous "Havlicek was a role player" declaration. You COMPLETELY overrate 80s-90s players.

[Taj FTW]

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

This is where people need to define what they're talking about with "skill," because Jokic is one of the most versatile, multi-faceted players of all time. Not just centers, players. Even if he was just a post-up machine who couldn't pass/shoot he'd still be incredibly dangerous. Add those abilities and he's almost unguardable. Outside of having a nice spot up jump shot, I don't remember Ewing being particularly skillful at all. He certainly couldn't handle the ball and distribute like Jokic.

But he played in the 90s bro. He'd be averaging 38-13 in today's game!

[Ni Da Ye]

This is a Kareem vs. Shaq vs. Jokic question.

I don't think there's another center, if we're just talking offense, that needs apply.

Jokic probably studied Hakeem when he learned how to play basketball.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt . That’s it

Wilt, Kareem and Shqa better than Jokic on offense (even), but on more stacked teams
a case would be Hakeem too

I get why people are considering Hakeem. Big scoring numbers, sick post moves, clear #1 on b2b title teams without an obviously stacked roster. But I think it's pretty clear that Hakeem is not in a tier with these guys offensively. Bring defense into the equation and he obviously is in any center conversation, but offensively there are some clear indicators he's a step down.

Hakeem is by far the least impressive passer of this group by any measurement. Shaq would be the closest to him, but peak Shaq (vs. peak Dream) averages more assists and less turnovers. On tape, Shaq is clearly the more willing passer of the 2 players. By assist percentage, Shaq is closer to prime Wilt than prime Dream.

And then there's scoring. Hakeem isn't in the same scoring volume tier as Jokic and Shaq (but compares just fine to Kareem and Wilt), and he's dead last in this group in terms of scoring efficiency. Hakeem simply did not generate easy offense like the rest of these guys did. He had to work harder for his points with his strong array of post moves. Kareem had the sky hook, Shaq had the deep seal, Wilt had the massive size advantage, and Jokic has the soft touch from everywhere. Using league adjusted stats (FG Add, TS Add, rTS%) Hakeem is not anywhere neat these other 4.

I'm not saying Hakeem isn't on their level. But I think it's a misconception that Hakeem is on this level offensively. He gets a ton of value on defense. As a scorer he's more: really great, rather than all-time best ever at his position.

Weighing Hakeem's passing skills is like mentioning about Shaq's ft%. Not a fair mention.

Hakeem is the core on both offense and defense on his championship team. Just like Jokic.

[Peregrine01]

I too want to see Jokic with a longer track record of doing his thing against better defenses before anointing him.

That said, he is a truly unprecedented offensive player. When you think about it, he legitimately has an argument for being one of the best scorers AND one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. How many other guys have an argument for being both? Maybe Bron but I don't think Bron was ever the passer that Jokic is.

And Jokic plays in such a way that allows other ball-dominant players to thrive. So not only is he one of the greatest floor raisers of an offense we've ever seen, capable of carrying a team devoid of much offensive talent to top-5 level, but he can also mesh seamlessly with other offensive talents who need the ball in their hands to be at their best.

[Braggins]

Zero.

[Bergmaniac]

Lmao bro no freaking way. People have a tendency to overrate 90s players so hard. Jokic wins 2 straight MVPs, should have been 3. All MVPs due to his offense, not defense. But somehow Patrick Ewing was better offensively at his peak. That's ridiculous.

He was just as skilled offensively and I stand by that, and I agree with your signature.

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

Yeah, but Ewing played in the mythical 1990s which automatically makes him better according to some posters.

I'd love to hear an explanation how a guy supposedly "just as skilled offensively" as Jokic led a good offense exactly once in his career. Ewing's Knicks were usually bottom 10 in offensive rating, including the year when they won 60 games. The Nuggets were 6th in offensive rating even the year when Murray missed the whole season and MPJ played 9 games in total.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Nobody, feeling quite confident on this

[Braggins]

Holy ****, guys like Ewing or even Hakeem were not nearly as good offensively as Jokic... Some of you have lost your minds and really need to get a grip.

If you want to make an argument for Hakeem being a better all-around player since he was a fantastic offensive player and also had god tier defense (case for GOAT defender), then sure, thats totally fair.

If you are just looking at offense then there are only a few players who even have a case to be in the conversation and that list doesn't include Hakeem and certainly not Ewing...

[XTC]

Jokic is in discussion for best offensive players of all time IMO, forget strictly centers/big men.

He plays such a beautiful style of basketball, he is definetly one of my alltime great big men.

[lobosloboslobos]

I too want to see Jokic with a longer track record of doing his thing against better defenses before anointing him.

That said, he is a truly unprecedented offensive player. When you think about it, he legitimately has an argument for being one of the best scorers AND one of the best playmakers the game has ever seen. How many other guys have an argument for being both? Maybe Bron but I don't think Bron was ever the passer that Jokic is.

And Jokic plays in such a way that allows other ball-dominant players to thrive. So not only is he one of the greatest floor raisers of an offense we've ever seen, capable of carrying a team devoid of much offensive talent to top-5 level, but he can also mesh seamlessly with other offensive talents who need the ball in their hands to be at their best.

His ability to dominate the game without ever seeming to be dominating it is remarkable. he doesn't demand that everyone follow him or support him as the #1 option he just sort of flows with his teammates and yet makes every one of them better constantly by feeding off their movements and through his genius turning them into sweet opportunities.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Patrick Ewing was just as skilled. Could shoot the ball well, finish at the rim, etc. Even after the injuries to a stand point. I'm including him.

Then there's of course Hakeem, David Robinson, Kareem, and Shaq.

this is hilarious

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The gap in playmaking skill is just astronomical, not to mention shooting skill(from literally everywhere on the court)

This is where people need to define what they're talking about with "skill," because Jokic is one of the most versatile, multi-faceted players of all time. Not just centers, players. Even if he was just a post-up machine who couldn't pass/shoot he'd still be incredibly dangerous. Add those abilities and he's almost unguardable. Outside of having a nice spot up jump shot, I don't remember Ewing being particularly skillful at all. He certainly couldn't handle the ball and distribute like Jokic.

But you have to factor in the era: defense isnt even allowed to played these days , big guys as a whole have been phased out, and recency bias. People have forgotten how great Shaq was , he instilled fear into
The opposition. Don’t get that feeling with jokic.

defense is allowed on big man and modern defenses can make post players with mediocre passing skills very ineffective.
I don't think a guy like Akeem would look any better, quite the opposite.