zimpy27 wrote:1. LeBron 41
2. Fisher 40
3. Horry 39
4. KAJ 37
5. Duncan 35
6. Kobe 33
7. Pippen 33
8. Magic 32
9. Shaq 32
10. Jordan 30
There’s only 2 players where we can say on this list where they were the top guy . MJ , Lebron .
Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal
zimpy27 wrote:1. LeBron 41
2. Fisher 40
3. Horry 39
4. KAJ 37
5. Duncan 35
6. Kobe 33
7. Pippen 33
8. Magic 32
9. Shaq 32
10. Jordan 30
Mogspan wrote:I think they see the super rare combo of high IQ with freakish athleticism and overrate the former a bit, kind of like a hot girl who is rather articulate being thought of as “super smart.” I don’t know kind of a weird analogy, but you catch my drift.
Dr Positivity wrote:I think being in 10 NBA finals, possibly soon 11 does a better job illustrating how many playoff runs Lebron has had.
Doctor MJ wrote:So first: "best GOAT argument"? I'm not going to say that.
But what I will say is that this is a stat I track. I think there's something very real about player series wins.
Obvious caveats:
1. No one number stat covers enough that I would use it to define my rankings, and this is more simplistic than most.
2. To some degree it's a longevity thing rather than a prime thing.
2. Obviously, a role player who plays less isn't accomplishing as much as a superstar playing big minutes.
4. Players didn't use to play as many series so this obviously can't be used against the Bill Russells of the world.
But yeah, this is a major feather in LeBron's cap I'd say, and I think you really see it when you see what I track:
List of guys with 30 or more winning series as a Top 5 minutes guy on his team:
1. LeBron James 41
2. Tim Duncan 34
3. Scottie Pippen 33
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 32
(tie) Magic Johnson 32
6. Shaquille O'Neal 31
7.Kobe Bryant 30
(tie) Michael Jordan 30
Note that when you do this, Fisher & Horry drop off - they stand at 26 & 22 respectively - and you're left with the stars of the most successful, sustained cores since they started playing 4 rounds of playoffs.
Note also that Kareem played for 5 years before this era, and so if you wanted to add 5 more series wins to his total to make it more apples-to-apples, that would be pretty reasonable. Still only gets him to 37.
So clearly, of any of these guys, LeBron stands out by a significant margin.
Incidentally, if we treated Russell's career as if there were 4 rounds each time, you'd get:
11 titles ~ 44 series wins
1 finalist ~ 3 series wins
1 ECF ~ 2 wins
Add that up ~ 49 series wins
So if LeBron can break 50, he'd have the edge even adjusting for these things.
Matt15 wrote:No not anymore than him having a losing finals record is a good argument against him being the GOAT.
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it
Doctor MJ wrote:An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it
We can try to adjust for that, and it's not an unreasonable ask. Let's see:
2006 - got to 2nd round, likely 2nd round out in the West. Unchanged.
2007 - got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2008 - got to 2nd round, pushed champs to the brink. Unchanged.
2009 - Got to CF, likely CF out in the West. Unchanged.
2010 - Got to 2nd round, likely gets at least that far in West. Unchanged.
2011 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd best team in league. Unchanged.
2012 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2013 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2014 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2015 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2016 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2017 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2018 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
So I could see an argument of thinking of LeBron as winning the equivalent for as low as 35 when "normalized" by conference.
An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it
An Unbiased Fan wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:An Unbiased Fan wrote:The strength of the East hurts it
We can try to adjust for that, and it's not an unreasonable ask. Let's see:
2006 - got to 2nd round, likely 2nd round out in the West. Unchanged.
2007 - got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2008 - got to 2nd round, pushed champs to the brink. Unchanged.
2009 - Got to CF, likely CF out in the West. Unchanged.
2010 - Got to 2nd round, likely gets at least that far in West. Unchanged.
2011 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd best team in league. Unchanged.
2012 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2013 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2014 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
2015 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2016 - Won title. Irrelevant.
2017 - Got to Finals, champs toughest out. Unchanged.
2018 - Got to Finals, likely 2nd round out in the West. Drop by 2 series wins.
So I could see an argument of thinking of LeBron as winning the equivalent for as low as 35 when "normalized" by conference.
You didn't adjust though
2006 - Cavs are a 2.17 SRS, out West they're a #8 seed most likely and bounced by the Spurs. At best the get to the #7 seed, but LA had that anda higher SRS. Cavs still get bounced in 1st round
2007 - Would be around a #5/#6 seed and bounced in 1st round
2008 - Cavs had a negative SRS, and well behind the #8 seed out West. They miss the playoffs
2009 - Make the WCF, likely love to Lakers
2010 - Make the 2nd round, assuming Lebron's elbow thing happens they miss out on a WCF rematch
2011 - Lose in WCF to Mavs
2012 - Title
2013 - Title
2014 - Makes the 2nd round, unless they paly teh Clips who always choke, then they made the WCF![]()
2015 - Might make WCF
2016 - Title
2017 - 2nd round, GS and SA both better
2018 - 0.59 SRS team, maybe the squeak into the playoffs, but 1st round bounce
Doctor MJ wrote:
I mean, none of this actually happened so obviously you can disagree with my quick assessment.
What's your tally?