Kuzma or Randle

[penbeast0]

I've been told I drastically underrate Kyle Kuzma; how does his value compare to Julius Randle?

Randle is an efficient 20 ppg scorer with weak defense who made 3rd team All-NBA (deservedly or not). Kuzma is a clearly less inefficient 20 ppg scorer but gives you more options with his ability to play SF, greater range, better defense, and superior playmaking.

Who would you rather have on NY?
Who would you rather have on DC?

[Amare_1_Knicks]

I think Randle is clearly the superior player, and not sure it’s close either. A better, more efficient volume scorer. A better rebounder. Would be interested to hear why you’d say Kuzma is a better playmaker than Randle? Randle has his tells and habits that defenses can key in on, but when he’s rolling he’s a good passing big.

But like I said, I don’t think this particularly close and whatever edge Kuzma may have defensively, if he has one, is a negligible one that does not move the needle.

For all his shortcomings (mostly in the postseason), Randle was 25/10/4 on 58%TS (right at league average) for a 47 win team.

[carlquincy]

You are not making a good case comparing Kuzma to a 3rd team all nba player.

[penbeast0]

Whether or not he's better than Kuzma, was Randle actually one of the top 6 forwards in the league last year?

[Jaivl]

Whether or not he's better than Kuzma, was Randle actually one of the top 6 forwards in the league last year?

No. Was Kuzma one of the top 25 forwards in the league last year?

[tsherkin]

Randle is an efficient 20 ppg scorer

No he isn't. 10 years ago he would be, but today, he's been at 90-100 TS+ for the past 4 years, topping out at 100 this past season. He was a +0.0% rTS guy this year. A couple of years ago in 2018 and 2019, he was an efficient scorer on like 11 and 15 FGA/g. Since he rose above 14.9 FGA/g (and 31 mpg), he has not been an efficient scorer. He was also at -5% TS relative to his RS average vs Miami, and was a disaster clown against Cleveland.

Just some food for thought.

EDIT: Also, even with all that, he's still like +4% TS over Kuzma this year, and has handled volume scoring load better than has Kyle, so...

[RCM88x]

Assuming cost is the same I'd rather have Kuzma, just more versatile and can do more things when their scoring isn't there.

[kendogg]

Randle is overrated for sure, but he's still better than Kuz

[penbeast0]

Thanks tsherkin, I hadn't realized Randle's scoring was not efficient, I had had the impression that it was. The case for Kuzma, as RCM88x says, is almost certainly not based on scoring but on other factors.

[tsherkin]

Thanks tsherkin, I hadn't realized Randle's scoring was not efficient, I had had the impression that it was. The case for Kuzma, as RCM88x says, is almost certainly not based on scoring but on other factors.

Yeah, he has value for sure. He's developed his perimeter jumper the last couple seasons, he's evidenced some mild improvement at the line, he's been developing a mediocre three-point shot similar to Kuzma's (certainly spammed the crap out of it this year). It was actually his best season from the perspective of, say, OBPM. He was 26th in the league in O-EPM. He's just, you know, -0.3 TSAdd.

I think he'd look better if he were shooting less. And obviously, league average has risen to a point where Shaq would be league-average if you don't envision his raw efficiency raising, you know? Offenses are brutally effective right now, so you have to be something unreal to be above-average/efficient.

[cupcakesnake]

I think Randle has better tools than Kuzma. His strength and explosiveness give him some rim pressure (not quite star level but he could help a team that needs a boost in that area) even if he's not an elite finisher. He gives you some passing and some shooting, but he's not good enough at either that you love him as a primary or secondary option. He had some good stretches as a play-finisher next to Brunson this year. I hoped to see that translate in the playoffs, but Randle also went into these playoffs injured and didn't look peppy when he returned. He's had 2 years of bad defense after an encouraging first season in New York. He's got an intriguing mix of strength and foot speed, but a sore lack of focus.

I don't see Randle as a top 6 forward at all. I vastly prefer Siakam and Markannen over Randle. Siakam is a slightly worse shooter than Randle, and doesn't have his strength, but is so much better in every other area (defense, playmaking, hustle, cutting). If Randle's best optimization is as a finisher, then Markannen is still better at this (even if Randle is the better playmaker here). I like Evan Mobley, JJJ, Draymond, OG, and Aaron Gordon this year over Randle. I don't think we need to discuss Giannis, Tatum, Butler, Durant, Lebron, Zion, George. If Bridges or Jaylen Brown are forwards, I probably like them over Randle as well. I'm more comfortable discussing Randle amongst other offensively slanted forwards like Derozan and Ingram.

I have to admit Washington was the team I watched least this year, so I don't know how up-to-date my Kuzma scouting report is. He strikes me as Randle without the rim pressure and passing but with more consistent perimeter defense and an extra splash of transition scoring. He's faster than Randle and lighter on his feet. The perimeter defense was good in LA when he had a lot of size behind him. I don't know what his defense looked like this year.

[Medbrat]

Kuzma, just to keep bullock away from the starting spot as much as possible... Also, Randle is crap plyoff performer, we already have 10 of those on my Dallas.

[cgf]

Randle's #s have suffered from having too much put on his shoulders in New York. He's a damn good player, but he's not an elite #1 option and he shouldn't be your PG...which is exactly what we've asked him to do for the past three years. It should not have been a surprise to anyone that his first efficient season as a knick came as soon as we gave him a competent PG.

He's a steaky shooter, inconsistent defender*, he can get loose with his handle & forget to put any touch on his passes, and some of "his spots" are objectively bad shots for most players...but if you don't ask him to do too much and have someone who can run the offense for him in crunchtime, letting Julius just make quick decisions, he's shown he can give you high volume scoring on good efficiency, with excellent rebounding & secondary playmaking.

Time may prove him to be a playoff choker, but I have a tough time blaming any non-superstar for struggling in 5 games with Elfrid Payton, Nerlens Noel, Reggie Bullock, and a sophomore RJ Barrett starting next to him. Similarly I have a tough time blaming someone for racing back from a 4-6 week ankle injury after just 2, only to reinjure his ankle at the end of round 1.

*though he did show in 2020-2021 that he can be a defensive difference-maker over an extended period of time when he's locked in & focused on that side of the ball.


EDIT:
I don't have #s to support this, but I also think that playing him next to Robinson has reinforced some of the habits people criticize Randle most for.

Next to Noel, Randle had to put in a lot more effort defensively, whereas Mitch is able to clean up so much around the rim that it's often better for us if Julius & Jalen just funnel drivers going by them into Robinson, than risk picking up a foul by making a play themselves.

And on the offensive end, our mid-3 sometimes throws garbage up at the rim when doubled just because they know Robinson or Hartenstein has been left alone under the rim, ready to put back the offensive rebound.

[cgf]

Kuzma, just to keep bullock away from the starting spot as much as possible... Also, Randle is crap plyoff performer, we already have 10 of those on my Dallas.

Might just be me, but I'd rather start Reggie than kuz...for either of our teams.