End to End Speed: Peak D.Rose, John Wall, Westbrook, De'Aaron Fox

[McBubbles]

That is a mighty ignorant statement. There was incredible athletes in every era and while most of those athletes in older era's don't have precise timed runs, and those that do were hand timed and probably ran barefoot or in converse, that doesn't mean they aren't in the conversation for fastest.

There are certainly role players who could match super elite times from most eras, but if we are only talking about star players or widely known players (in 40-yard dash):

Wilt Chamberlain 4.6
Bill Russell 4.3

Bill's time matches the fastest runs aside from Rose. Of course that was hand timed so it could be a bit off, but it was also pre-modern footwear and pre-weight lifting. Both Wilt and Russell were track and field stars so they had official runs there, just not by the NBA.

Spud Webb 4.3
Iverson 4.3
Ja Morant 4.29

We don't have timed runs for these players but they likely would have clocked elite times:
John Thompson
Walt Frazier
Julius Erving
Isiah Thomas
Muggsey Bogues
Nate Robinson

You guys need to chill. Obviously fake 40 yard dashes that people somehow still believe because they don't know much about sprinting or biomechanics or comparable sports™ are one of my biggest pet peeves lol.

I can tell you off rip that all those are fake. Incredibly tall, incredibly gym weak, non-power athletes aren't running anything below a 4.5. There are probably literally less than 10 players in NBA history that can run an electronically timed 4.5, and they're likely not even the best players, just some randoms.

Usain Bolt, the man who had the world record for both 40m and 60m splits at the time (so no "he starts slow" baloney), ran a 4.22 40 yard dash. There ain't no **** way ANY NBA player came close to, or even exceeded Usain Bolt's split.

+ That's just blissfully ignorant to the point of arrogance in regards to NFL athletes capabilities. The NFL, the organisation that has previously housed and tested some 100m Olympians mind you, and the organisation that has the most fastest and explosive field athletes in human history, who all from a genetic standpoint, have the most fast twitch muscle fibers out of anyone on the planet besides sprinters, who all constantly train with the explicit purpose of maximising their acceleration from a stand still, has a 40 yard dash record of 4.22.

Why on earth would the fastest NBA players i.e, the really tall, (bad for acceleration, especially after a certain height) guys that aren't the most explosive athletes ever, who don't even train for the 40 yard dash, have 40 yard dash times that exceed the NFLs record? Answer, they would not.

P.S, almost every single commonly sited Wilt Chamberlain athletic feat is an unsubstantiated myth.

6'5" Usain Bolt is a slow starter and a number of people beat his 20 and 40 meter splits. Bolt catches the field at the 50 mark and blows them away by the 70 mark. For comparison, Calvin Johnson, 6'5", 237 pounds, ripped to the max, ran an official time of 4.35 at the NFL combine.

Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were both track and field training from a young age (before basketball for them), so the 4.6 from Wilt is certainly believable and to my knowledge recorded at Overbrook in Philly, along with a number of his high school and Pennsylvania state records. Russell was a better high jumper than Wilt and quite the sprinter as well. 4.3 may be off, but 4.5 is believable for such an athlete. I don't know of any other NBA player who specifically started out as a track and field athlete before playing basketball except for Bobby Jones, who was a star high jumper as well and like Wilt, enjoyed track and field more than basketball. As a trivia point, Jones took second place in his state track meet (high jump) to Bob McAdoo. It's interesting how many old school bigs (Wilt, 7'1"+, Bill 6'9"+, Jones 6'9", McAdoo 6'9") were excellent high jumpers before becoming NBA pros. People continually underestimate the core strength and lower body strength of these big men. These outliers specifically trained for track events.

Side note: Before anyone disses Wilt and Bill for their high jump heights, this was pre-Fosbury flop technique. What they did was on pure strength.

I already addressed this. Usain Bolt has one of the fastest 30m splits in history at 3.78s after Su Bingtian's 3.73s. So no he's not a slow starter.

Read on Twitter

After looking at over a dozen pages of what LA Bird posted, it shows that when you take reaction time into account Bolt is like top 3 ever for his 20m, 30m and 40m splits. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Maurice Green, Justin Gatlin, Asafa Powell and Tyson Gay to name a few never bested this, so I have no idea who these "numbers of people" that could exceed his 20-40 splits you're referring to are.

Also Calvin Johnson is the fastest person for his height and weight ever, so one of the biggest outliers ever in that regard (along with DK Metcalf and his 4.33) and he's still .13s off the fastest recorded NFL time with dozens of people ahead of him, so that actually helps prove my point.

Also x2, what are we doing? There is ZERO reliable source for the 4.6 or this blistering 4.3. You literally have no evidence to support those numbers yet for some reason say "I think it's believable" as if that's an argument. It's like the people who think Wilt could bench 500lbs because they think it's "believable" that a guy that has a reputation for being strong could do that, despite that making no god damn sense.

Plus like I said most of Wilt's numbers are nonsense too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9akkos/debunking_most_every_wilt_chamberlain_track_field/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[IdolW0rm]

TJ Ford.

[McBubbles]

That is a mighty ignorant statement. There was incredible athletes in every era and while most of those athletes in older era's don't have precise timed runs, and those that do were hand timed and probably ran barefoot or in converse, that doesn't mean they aren't in the conversation for fastest.

There are certainly role players who could match super elite times from most eras, but if we are only talking about star players or widely known players (in 40-yard dash):

Wilt Chamberlain 4.6
Bill Russell 4.3

Bill's time matches the fastest runs aside from Rose. Of course that was hand timed so it could be a bit off, but it was also pre-modern footwear and pre-weight lifting. Both Wilt and Russell were track and field stars so they had official runs there, just not by the NBA.

Spud Webb 4.3
Iverson 4.3
Ja Morant 4.29

We don't have timed runs for these players but they likely would have clocked elite times:
John Thompson
Walt Frazier
Julius Erving
Isiah Thomas
Muggsey Bogues
Nate Robinson

You guys need to chill. Obviously fake 40 yard dashes that people somehow still believe because they don't know much about sprinting or biomechanics or comparable sports™ are one of my biggest pet peeves lol.

I can tell you off rip that all those are fake. Incredibly tall, incredibly gym weak, non-power athletes aren't running anything below a 4.5. There are probably literally less than 10 players in NBA history that can run an electronically timed 4.5, and they're likely not even the best players, just some randoms.

Usain Bolt, the man who had the world record for both 40m and 60m splits at the time (so no "he starts slow" baloney), ran a 4.22 40 yard dash. There ain't no **** way ANY NBA player came close to, or even exceeded Usain Bolt's split.

+ That's just blissfully ignorant to the point of arrogance in regards to NFL athletes capabilities. The NFL, the organisation that has previously housed and tested some 100m Olympians mind you, and the organisation that has the most fastest and explosive field athletes in human history, who all from a genetic standpoint, have the most fast twitch muscle fibers out of anyone on the planet besides sprinters, who all constantly train with the explicit purpose of maximising their acceleration from a stand still, has a 40 yard dash record of 4.22.

Why on earth would the fastest NBA players i.e, the really tall, (bad for acceleration, especially after a certain height) guys that aren't the most explosive athletes ever, who don't even train for the 40 yard dash, have 40 yard dash times that exceed the NFLs record? Answer, they would not.

P.S, almost every single commonly sited Wilt Chamberlain athletic feat is an unsubstantiated myth.

Usain Bolt's time was 1 random run he did in sweatpants. He could certainly get a better time if he tried.

These times aren't by super tall unathletic players. These are all small guards who are absolutely freak athletes. All NBA players are doing weight training these days I'm not sure what world you live on, but it certainly isn't earth. Also the top NFL speedsters are between 4.2 and 4.3 on their runs, and for the NBA its between 4.3 and 4.4. So yes the NFL speedsters are a bit faster on average. To say there isn't 10 players in NBA history that can run a 4.5 is very much not true. And yes all of these players are smaller guards like Rose, Westbrook, Iverson, etc. The fastest bigger guys are clocking 4.5-4.7.

Also all the strength training hurts the NFL guys top speeds to some extent. Having big arms is just extra weight to lug around. Which is why the unoffical college timed runs these guys do are invariably faster (Bo Jackson apparently ran a 4.13 in college)

And there are some very tall players with huge strides like Giannis that have elite speed. Wilt and Russ were track and field athletes in college and are every bit as fast as Giannis, who can run over half the court in 6 steps.

Also the NFL might have on average better athletes (at least certain positions), but the NBA has many of the best athletes in the world because NBA players are better paid, have larger guaranteed contracts, and don't have to play full contact and have debilitating conditions from multiple concussions post retirement.

These times were not done on the NBA combine of course, which is a 75ft sprint and most top draft picks don't participate anyway. Most of these were runs timed in college. Obviously a lot of these guys flirted with playing football. And yes most of these runs are self reported and not official with video evidence, but we also have video evidence to back the times up...many of the best NBA athletes have been clocked in MPH from NBA video, which you can use to extrapolate times. Russell Westbrook for example was clocked at 21.6mph in a game. That's not even on fresh legs that's in the middle of a game after playing many minutes. Bolt's top speed is 27mph but that is an official run using running gear and fresh legs.

1. I didn't say NBA players don't go to the gym, I said they're gym weak, because they are.

2. I don't care about any information given to me about Bo "Source; Just trust me bro" Jackson has even more myths surrounding him than Wilt.

Most importantly though;

"And yes most of these runs are self reported and not official with video evidence".

Great, conversation over lol. Happy you acknowledged this because it was getting silly reading your made up numbers. The official fastest NFL times are 4.2-4.3, nobody knows what the fastest NBA times are because we don't have any, so you have no idea how much faster the former group is on average. I don't know why you're confidently throwing out numbers as if a handful of players (who lie and exaggerate their athletic traits all the time) over the course of 60 years from Bill Russell to Muggsy Bogues to Derrick Rose (a guy who's so honest that he lied about taking his SAT's), saying "yeah bro I ran a 4.3 in college or something idk" is something to be taken seriously.

Players lie so much that we don't even have accurate data about the things the NBA records itself, but you think we have accurate data on the unmeasured, unverifiable 40 times done decades ago? Ok.

And no, we can't extrapolate anything from video evidence wtf.

Usain Bolt's max velocity is 27mph. Russell Westbrook's max velocity is 21.6mph. This is a 20% gap between them, which is absolutely **** massive mind you, already way too big to extrapolate anything. But you're saying that because we know Westbrook's max speed is 21.6mph, and Usain Bolt's max speed is 27mph, we can extrapolate Westbrooks acceleration, the thing that has nothing to do with the two numbers you just gave me, that are already extremely far apart ?

Ultimately it comes down to this. The athletic traits that the NBA selects for first are height (disproportionately), hand-eye co-ordination, stamina, vertical and then maybe after that speed. They are jack of all trade athletes physically and like footballers are very much "skill based" athletes. The fastest positions in the NFL selects damn near exclusively for speed, agility, power and that's it. Furthermore it's physiologically impossible, not difficult or unlikely, but physiologically impossible to have top level speed AND top level stamina, which is required to be an elite NBA player. Blah blah fast and slow twitch muscle fibres and what not.

With that in mind, why would group A get faster, just as fast or slightly slower athletes than the athletes in group B, when like I've already mentioned, Group A is not genetically predisposed to being better at the 40 yard dash on account of their height and stamina requirements, and also don't even train for the 40, unlike Group B? They wouldn't. The fastest people in the league will be fast FOR NBA players, not world class fast. Like I said it's not even physiologically possible for them to be world class fast.

[Gooner]

Watch on YouTube

[SkyHookFTW]

You guys need to chill. Obviously fake 40 yard dashes that people somehow still believe because they don't know much about sprinting or biomechanics or comparable sports™ are one of my biggest pet peeves lol.

I can tell you off rip that all those are fake. Incredibly tall, incredibly gym weak, non-power athletes aren't running anything below a 4.5. There are probably literally less than 10 players in NBA history that can run an electronically timed 4.5, and they're likely not even the best players, just some randoms.

Usain Bolt, the man who had the world record for both 40m and 60m splits at the time (so no "he starts slow" baloney), ran a 4.22 40 yard dash. There ain't no **** way ANY NBA player came close to, or even exceeded Usain Bolt's split.

+ That's just blissfully ignorant to the point of arrogance in regards to NFL athletes capabilities. The NFL, the organisation that has previously housed and tested some 100m Olympians mind you, and the organisation that has the most fastest and explosive field athletes in human history, who all from a genetic standpoint, have the most fast twitch muscle fibers out of anyone on the planet besides sprinters, who all constantly train with the explicit purpose of maximising their acceleration from a stand still, has a 40 yard dash record of 4.22.

Why on earth would the fastest NBA players i.e, the really tall, (bad for acceleration, especially after a certain height) guys that aren't the most explosive athletes ever, who don't even train for the 40 yard dash, have 40 yard dash times that exceed the NFLs record? Answer, they would not.

P.S, almost every single commonly sited Wilt Chamberlain athletic feat is an unsubstantiated myth.

6'5" Usain Bolt is a slow starter and a number of people beat his 20 and 40 meter splits. Bolt catches the field at the 50 mark and blows them away by the 70 mark. For comparison, Calvin Johnson, 6'5", 237 pounds, ripped to the max, ran an official time of 4.35 at the NFL combine.

Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell were both track and field training from a young age (before basketball for them), so the 4.6 from Wilt is certainly believable and to my knowledge recorded at Overbrook in Philly, along with a number of his high school and Pennsylvania state records. Russell was a better high jumper than Wilt and quite the sprinter as well. 4.3 may be off, but 4.5 is believable for such an athlete. I don't know of any other NBA player who specifically started out as a track and field athlete before playing basketball except for Bobby Jones, who was a star high jumper as well and like Wilt, enjoyed track and field more than basketball. As a trivia point, Jones took second place in his state track meet (high jump) to Bob McAdoo. It's interesting how many old school bigs (Wilt, 7'1"+, Bill 6'9"+, Jones 6'9", McAdoo 6'9") were excellent high jumpers before becoming NBA pros. People continually underestimate the core strength and lower body strength of these big men. These outliers specifically trained for track events.

Side note: Before anyone disses Wilt and Bill for their high jump heights, this was pre-Fosbury flop technique. What they did was on pure strength.

I already addressed this. Usain Bolt has one of the fastest 30m splits in history at 3.78s after Su Bingtian's 3.73s. So no he's not a slow starter.

Read on Twitter

After looking at over a dozen pages of what LA Bird posted, it shows that when you take reaction time into account Bolt is like top 3 ever for his 20m, 30m and 40m splits. Ben Johnson, Carl Lewis, Maurice Green, Justin Gatlin, Asafa Powell and Tyson Gay to name a few never bested this, so I have no idea who these "numbers of people" that could exceed his 20-40 splits you're referring to are.

Also Calvin Johnson is the fastest person for his height and weight ever, so one of the biggest outliers ever in that regard (along with DK Metcalf and his 4.33) and he's still .13s off the fastest recorded NFL time with dozens of people ahead of him, so that actually helps prove my point.

Also x2, what are we doing? There is ZERO reliable source for the 4.6 or this blistering 4.3. You literally have no evidence to support those numbers yet for some reason say "I think it's believable" as if that's an argument. It's like the people who think Wilt could bench 500lbs because they think it's "believable" that a guy that has a reputation for being strong could do that, despite that making no god damn sense.

Plus like I said most of Wilt's numbers are nonsense too.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/9akkos/debunking_most_every_wilt_chamberlain_track_field/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I am not going to do a point-by-point reply, as I don't have the time. The Reddit link you are referencing is from a person who supposedly did meticulous research debunking Wilt. Well, it took me a mere 30 seconds to find an example of his "meticulous" research. He claims that Wilt never cleared more than 6'5" in the high jump in 1957, yet there is a video from the Drake Relays in 1957 that shows him jumping 6'6 1/4". He tied for first in the event. It's been on YouTube for over five years. Now, I'm not saying that the post you are linked to is entirely wrong, but after seeing such a simple oversight, I do question his overall ability to research properly.

As for the 500 pound bench, I saw it in person when I worked on the Conan movie. I have already made a few posts about this and will not go over old ground again.

My bad on Bolt. I recall seeing so many of his races when he was older and remember him getting beat off the line often but always winning in the end. I need to see young Bolt again to get that out of my mind. The NFL times I posted are right from official NFL combines, easy to source.

[Jaivl]

I don't think people realize that "official" combine numbers are hand timed and are wildly inaccurate. Even the 40 yard estimates I see quoted for Su Bingtian and Usain Bolt ITT are way off

(...)

The fastest 0-30m split in history is 3.73 seconds by Su
The fastest 30-40m split in history is 0.85 seconds by Bolt and Gatlin

40 yards is 36.576 meters. Ignoring the fact that these guys are still accelerating at that point and assuming a linear extrapolation, 3.73 + 0.85 x 0.6576 = 4.29 seconds. 4.3 is the best 40 yard dash time possible from combining the time of sprinters with the best start and best top speed. And that's athletes who specialized in sprinting, running on track surface, with spikes, and a block start. Nobody in the NBA or NFL is touching that number. They are insanely fast but they would still get dusted by Olympic sprinters.

Remove 0.146s of reaction time, and that's where Su's quoted time (4.1 s truncating to the tenth) comes from.

[kendogg]

Usain Bolt's max velocity is 27mph. Russell Westbrook's max velocity is 21.6mph. This is a 20% gap between them, which is absolutely **** massive mind you, already way too big to extrapolate anything. But you're saying that because we know Westbrook's max speed is 21.6mph, and Usain Bolt's max speed is 27mph, we can extrapolate Westbrooks acceleration, the thing that has nothing to do with the two numbers you just gave me, that are already extremely far apart ?

Bolt was clocked at 27mph in a longer sprint, using running shoes and gear.

Westbrook was clocked at 22 on a basketball court while playing basketball. Clearly not his max velocity, as you couldn't even reach max velocity running down a basketball court. And no you can't extrapolate 40 yard dash from a velocity snapshot, but you can still gauge some level of relative speed compared to others.

[McBubbles]

Usain Bolt's max velocity is 27mph. Russell Westbrook's max velocity is 21.6mph. This is a 20% gap between them, which is absolutely **** massive mind you, already way too big to extrapolate anything. But you're saying that because we know Westbrook's max speed is 21.6mph, and Usain Bolt's max speed is 27mph, we can extrapolate Westbrooks acceleration, the thing that has nothing to do with the two numbers you just gave me, that are already extremely far apart ?

Bolt was clocked at 27mph in a longer sprint, using running shoes and gear.

Westbrook was clocked at 22 on a basketball court while playing basketball. Clearly not his max velocity, as you couldn't even reach max velocity running down a basketball court. And no you can't extrapolate 40 yard dash from a velocity snapshot, but you can still gauge some level of relative speed compared to others.

I thought you'd reply something like that. If Westbrook can run a 21.7 on a basketball court, then that means he could surely run *insert any higher number* in sprinting conditions.

How fast do you think Westbrook could run in MPH, if he had sprinting spikes and running gear under the same conditions as Bolt?

[eminence]

Fastest 3/4 court at the combine (electronic) timed yesterday was 3.06 by Terrence Shannon Jr. I'd expect that to be sub 4.5 speed, though maybe basketball courts create faster speeds than tracks.

[kendogg]

Usain Bolt's max velocity is 27mph. Russell Westbrook's max velocity is 21.6mph. This is a 20% gap between them, which is absolutely **** massive mind you, already way too big to extrapolate anything. But you're saying that because we know Westbrook's max speed is 21.6mph, and Usain Bolt's max speed is 27mph, we can extrapolate Westbrooks acceleration, the thing that has nothing to do with the two numbers you just gave me, that are already extremely far apart ?

Bolt was clocked at 27mph in a longer sprint, using running shoes and gear.

Westbrook was clocked at 22 on a basketball court while playing basketball. Clearly not his max velocity, as you couldn't even reach max velocity running down a basketball court. And no you can't extrapolate 40 yard dash from a velocity snapshot, but you can still gauge some level of relative speed compared to others.

I thought you'd reply something like that. If Westbrook can run a 21.7 on a basketball court, then that means he could surely run *insert any higher number* in sprinting conditions.

How fast do you think Westbrook could run in MPH, if he had sprinting spikes and running gear under the same conditions as Bolt?

No idea. Nobody is trying to argue that NBA players are as fast as track and field stars, or even certain positions for NFL players. But agility and speed are very important to NBA players, as it is all about beating your opponent by a step or even half a step. And there is more player movement today than ever and schemes are increasingly complex on both sides of the ball. Also with all the switching schemes and small ball lineups, positions for NBA matter less and average height is way down as well.

To just flatly say that NFL are faster and stronger is not true. It depends on the position. There are some skinny ass receivers in the NFL. And there are some blobs for linesman, and yes, they are much faster than you'd think for their size, but that doesn't mean any of those guys can run a 4.3 unless they are a corner. NFL is all about specialists...every position specializes in doing one or two things well and nothing else matters. While NBA players are better all around athletes. And yes coordination is a top attribute for NBA players, while it only really matters for QB's and receivers in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that agility and speed aren't right up there as one the most important attributes for an NBA player. Even most centers in the NBA are quick these days. But outside of rim protectors, speed is more important than height. And strength is also important, being able to take a hit and maintain balance is one of the main attributes that separates bad finishers from good finishers.

The average height in the NFL is 6'2". The average height of an NBA player today is 6'6". If you exclude centers, the average height probably drops to like 6'4". There are a lot of 6'4"-6'6" front line players today, and plenty of guards that are barely over 6'. To say the NBA values height over all else is just blatantly false. The top athletes in the NBA are as fast or nearly as fast as the top athletes in the NFL. And you could probably even argue that non-center NBA players are on average faster than NFL players, but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison since again NFL positions are so specialized. If you compared top 10 fastest NFL receivers to top 10 NBA guards, that would be pretty close, the receivers would probably slightly edge out, but not by a large margin.

[McBubbles]

Bolt was clocked at 27mph in a longer sprint, using running shoes and gear.

Westbrook was clocked at 22 on a basketball court while playing basketball. Clearly not his max velocity, as you couldn't even reach max velocity running down a basketball court. And no you can't extrapolate 40 yard dash from a velocity snapshot, but you can still gauge some level of relative speed compared to others.

I thought you'd reply something like that. If Westbrook can run a 21.7 on a basketball court, then that means he could surely run *insert any higher number* in sprinting conditions.

How fast do you think Westbrook could run in MPH, if he had sprinting spikes and running gear under the same conditions as Bolt?

No idea. Nobody is trying to argue that NBA players are as fast as track and field stars, or even certain positions for NFL players. But agility and speed are very important to NBA players, as it is all about beating your opponent by a step or even half a step. And there is more player movement today than ever and schemes are increasingly complex on both sides of the ball. Also with all the switching schemes and small ball lineups, positions for NBA matter less and average height is way down as well.

To just flatly say that NFL are faster and stronger is not true. It depends on the position. There are some skinny ass receivers in the NFL. And there are some blobs for linesman, and yes, they are much faster than you'd think for their size, but that doesn't mean any of those guys can run a 4.3 unless they are a corner. NFL is all about specialists...every position specializes in doing one or two things well and nothing else matters. While NBA players are better all around athletes. And yes coordination is a top attribute for NBA players, while it only really matters for QB's and receivers in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that agility and speed aren't right up there as one the most important attributes for an NBA player. Even most centers in the NBA are quick these days. But outside of rim protectors, speed is more important than height. And strength is also important, being able to take a hit and maintain balance is one of the main attributes that separates bad finishers from good finishers.

The average height in the NFL is 6'2". The average height of an NBA player today is 6'6". If you exclude centers, the average height probably drops to like 6'4". There are a lot of 6'4"-6'6" front line players today, and plenty of guards that are barely over 6'. To say the NBA values height over all else is just blatantly false. The top athletes in the NBA are as fast or nearly as fast as the top athletes in the NFL. And you could probably even argue that non-center NBA players are on average faster than NFL players, but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison since again NFL positions are so specialized. If you compared top 10 fastest NFL receivers to top 10 NBA guards, that would be pretty close, the receivers would probably slightly edge out, but not by a large margin.

How are you going to say "the average height for the NBA is 6'6" and say "the NBA doesn't disproportionately value height" in the same sentence? M8 less than 0.01% of the population are 6'6. 9 out of the 10 most commonly cited top 10 players of all time are 6'9 or taller, with the shortest being 6'6 MJ. And why would we arbitrarily exclude centers and big men from that statement?

Whatevs. The bolded is the limit for me. I site unreconcilable differences. Agree to disagree.

[eminence]

.

.

Any thoughts on NBA combine 3/4 court sprint times? Fastest at yesterdays combine was 3.06 (Terrence Shannon Jr), Donovan Mitchell has a 3.01 to his name. Nate Robinson into the 2.9x, but unsure if that was electronic.

[SkyHookFTW]

Bolt was clocked at 27mph in a longer sprint, using running shoes and gear.

Westbrook was clocked at 22 on a basketball court while playing basketball. Clearly not his max velocity, as you couldn't even reach max velocity running down a basketball court. And no you can't extrapolate 40 yard dash from a velocity snapshot, but you can still gauge some level of relative speed compared to others.

I thought you'd reply something like that. If Westbrook can run a 21.7 on a basketball court, then that means he could surely run *insert any higher number* in sprinting conditions.

How fast do you think Westbrook could run in MPH, if he had sprinting spikes and running gear under the same conditions as Bolt?

No idea. Nobody is trying to argue that NBA players are as fast as track and field stars, or even certain positions for NFL players. But agility and speed are very important to NBA players, as it is all about beating your opponent by a step or even half a step. And there is more player movement today than ever and schemes are increasingly complex on both sides of the ball. Also with all the switching schemes and small ball lineups, positions for NBA matter less and average height is way down as well.

To just flatly say that NFL are faster and stronger is not true. It depends on the position. There are some skinny ass receivers in the NFL. And there are some blobs for linesman, and yes, they are much faster than you'd think for their size, but that doesn't mean any of those guys can run a 4.3 unless they are a corner. NFL is all about specialists...every position specializes in doing one or two things well and nothing else matters. While NBA players are better all around athletes. And yes coordination is a top attribute for NBA players, while it only really matters for QB's and receivers in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that agility and speed aren't right up there as one the most important attributes for an NBA player. Even most centers in the NBA are quick these days. But outside of rim protectors, speed is more important than height. And strength is also important, being able to take a hit and maintain balance is one of the main attributes that separates bad finishers from good finishers.

The average height in the NFL is 6'2". The average height of an NBA player today is 6'6". If you exclude centers, the average height probably drops to like 6'4". There are a lot of 6'4"-6'6" front line players today, and plenty of guards that are barely over 6'. To say the NBA values height over all else is just blatantly false. The top athletes in the NBA are as fast or nearly as fast as the top athletes in the NFL. And you could probably even argue that non-center NBA players are on average faster than NFL players, but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison since again NFL positions are so specialized. If you compared top 10 fastest NFL receivers to top 10 NBA guards, that would be pretty close, the receivers would probably slightly edge out, but not by a large margin.

I wouldn't say that NBA players are flat out better athletes. NFL and NBA train differently. All NFL players train for short burst explosiveness and power with the expectation that they are going to be hit hard repeatedly. Some positions require an insane amount of agility. To say coordination doesn't matter in the NFL except for QB's and WR's in the NFL is just ridiculous. You would probably crap your pants if you saw the agility drills I had to do in college as a linebacker. Hell, a cornerback that can't swivel their hips on a dime and burst out to top speed within two steps is not for long on the field. The leg and hand techniques employed by pass rushers against massive offensive linemen require incredible footwork and coordinated changes of direction. One wrong move and you're on your ass. It doesn't always look that way on TV, but on the field you'd be shocked at how fast everything is going.

NBA players can't train the same way. It would make no sense to do so. Hand-eye coordination along with overall coordination of body is more important, as every player handles the ball, has to run the court with control, and must have ball handling skills. It is more important for a NBA player to have full awareness and vision on the court on average. Of course not everyone has to have handles or a first step like Iverson, but the old "big, white stiff" player is a thing of the past. On that note, seeing A.I. on TV was nothing like seeing him in person. The man was a blur and made so many defenders look flat out silly. Or you can be just "average" athletically but still be the best player in the game because your BBIQ is off the charts and have GOAT-like vision, passing, and play-making ability like Jokic, who I believe is the best player in the game. Sounds like he's the Tom Brady of the NBA.

Different sport, both to some degree have the same baseline athletic requirements, both have positions that branch out to more precise requirements and skills, more so in the NFL due to the sheer nature and number of different positions.

For anyone interested, the average size of a NBA player is 6'6", 216, while the NFL is 6'2 1/2, 237 (as of 2020).

[McBubbles]

I thought you'd reply something like that. If Westbrook can run a 21.7 on a basketball court, then that means he could surely run *insert any higher number* in sprinting conditions.

How fast do you think Westbrook could run in MPH, if he had sprinting spikes and running gear under the same conditions as Bolt?

No idea. Nobody is trying to argue that NBA players are as fast as track and field stars, or even certain positions for NFL players. But agility and speed are very important to NBA players, as it is all about beating your opponent by a step or even half a step. And there is more player movement today than ever and schemes are increasingly complex on both sides of the ball. Also with all the switching schemes and small ball lineups, positions for NBA matter less and average height is way down as well.

To just flatly say that NFL are faster and stronger is not true. It depends on the position. There are some skinny ass receivers in the NFL. And there are some blobs for linesman, and yes, they are much faster than you'd think for their size, but that doesn't mean any of those guys can run a 4.3 unless they are a corner. NFL is all about specialists...every position specializes in doing one or two things well and nothing else matters. While NBA players are better all around athletes. And yes coordination is a top attribute for NBA players, while it only really matters for QB's and receivers in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that agility and speed aren't right up there as one the most important attributes for an NBA player. Even most centers in the NBA are quick these days. But outside of rim protectors, speed is more important than height. And strength is also important, being able to take a hit and maintain balance is one of the main attributes that separates bad finishers from good finishers.

The average height in the NFL is 6'2". The average height of an NBA player today is 6'6". If you exclude centers, the average height probably drops to like 6'4". There are a lot of 6'4"-6'6" front line players today, and plenty of guards that are barely over 6'. To say the NBA values height over all else is just blatantly false. The top athletes in the NBA are as fast or nearly as fast as the top athletes in the NFL. And you could probably even argue that non-center NBA players are on average faster than NFL players, but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison since again NFL positions are so specialized. If you compared top 10 fastest NFL receivers to top 10 NBA guards, that would be pretty close, the receivers would probably slightly edge out, but not by a large margin.

I wouldn't say that NBA players are flat out better athletes. NFL and NBA train differently. All NFL players train for short burst explosiveness and power with the expectation that they are going to be hit hard repeatedly. Some positions require an insane amount of agility. To say coordination doesn't matter in the NFL except for QB's and WR's in the NFL is just ridiculous. You would probably crap your pants if you saw the agility drills I had to do in college as a linebacker. Hell, a cornerback that can't swivel their hips on a dime and burst out to top speed within two steps is not for long on the field. The leg and hand techniques employed by pass rushers against massive offensive linemen require incredible footwork and coordinated changes of direction. One wrong move and you're on your ass. It doesn't always look that way on TV, but on the field you'd be shocked at how fast everything is going.

NBA players can't train the same way. It would make no sense to do so. Hand-eye coordination along with overall coordination of body is more important, as every player handles the ball, has to run the court with control, and must have ball handling skills. It is more important for a NBA player to have full awareness and vision on the court on average. Of course not everyone has to have handles or a first step like Iverson, but the old "big, white stiff" player is a thing of the past. On that note, seeing A.I. on TV was nothing like seeing him in person. The man was a blur and made so many defenders look flat out silly. Or you can be just "average" athletically but still be the best player in the game because your BBIQ is off the charts and have GOAT-like vision, passing, and play-making ability like Jokic, who I believe is the best player in the game. Sounds like he's the Tom Brady of the NBA.

Different sport, both to some degree have the same baseline athletic requirements, both have positions that branch out to more precise requirements and skills, more so in the NFL due to the sheer nature and number of different positions.

For anyone interested, the average size of a NBA player is 6'6", 216, while the NFL is 6'2 1/2, 237 (as of 2020).

At the highest level the term "better athlete" doesn't even really make sense / even exist on account of the nature of sports and specialization. It's like saying a wolf is "better evolved" than a deer, or that an engineer is "more intelligent" than an artist. All these terms while usually used in reference to some holistic quality are extremely multifaceted.

Not accusing you of saying that btw, just pointing it out cuz I find it interesting.

[McBubbles]

.

.

Any thoughts on NBA combine 3/4 court sprint times? Fastest at yesterdays combine was 3.06 (Terrence Shannon Jr), Donovan Mitchell has a 3.01 to his name. Nate Robinson into the 2.9x, but unsure if that was electronic.

People like converting them into 40 yard dash times which doesn't really make sense to me for several reasons.

I personally would pay money to see some sort of international combine, at least for North American sports. All the NFL stuff, + all the NBA stuff, + one rep maxes for bench, squat and deadlift + an 100m sprint.

0 reason for this to happen obviously, but it'd make me happy at least

[kendogg]

The average height in the NFL is 6'2". The average height of an NBA player today is 6'6". If you exclude centers, the average height probably drops to like 6'4". There are a lot of 6'4"-6'6" front line players today, and plenty of guards that are barely over 6'. To say the NBA values height over all else is just blatantly false. The top athletes in the NBA are as fast or nearly as fast as the top athletes in the NFL. And you could probably even argue that non-center NBA players are on average faster than NFL players, but that wouldn't really be a fair comparison since again NFL positions are so specialized. If you compared top 10 fastest NFL receivers to top 10 NBA guards, that would be pretty close, the receivers would probably slightly edge out, but not by a large margin.

How are you going to say "the average height for the NBA is 6'6" and say "the NBA doesn't disproportionately value height" in the same sentence? M8 less than 0.01% of the population are 6'6. 9 out of the 10 most commonly cited top 10 players of all time are 6'9 or taller, with the shortest being 6'6 MJ. And why would we arbitrarily exclude centers and big men from that statement?

Whatevs. The bolded is the limit for me. I site unreconcilable differences. Agree to disagree.

The historical list of GOATS being center heavy is irrelevant to the athleticism of the average NBA athlete. It's the same reason that QB's are almost always drafted first in the NFL, and are not included when you are talking about the most athletic players in the NFL. These are heavily specialized roles, but have an extremely large impact on winning due to the nature of the sport. Centers are your rim protectors and defend the highest percentage shots, but they are really the only position where height is disproportionately valued. Even then there are exceptions and trends towards smaller players (there are a number of players playing center full time who are 6'6"-6'9" which is far smaller than the average center height in previous eras)

Height is valued in the NFL as well. There's a reason that NFL players are 3-4 inches taller than the average male. Length matters in disrupting passes as well as catching passes, and of course for QB's to be able to see the field and have a better passing angle. Average height is trending up for NFL players while it is trending down for NBA players.

So it should be pretty obvious why we would exclude centers in talks of the most athletic players, just like we exclude QB's and kickers for NFL. I'm kinda flabbergasted as to why you would even question this.

[Samurai]

It can't be anybody pre 90s unless you're talking about MJ.

Why?

Not sure why 1990 is some sort of cutoff point but I'd say Randy Smith (in his Buffalo days) has long been considered one of the fastest players in NBA history. And he played before 1990.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Pre-Back Injury Ben Simmons I think is an honorable mention, even if he isn't quite as good as everyone here.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Watch on YouTube