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2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1541 » by ArthurVandelay » Tue May 16, 2023 3:43 pm



I can't wait until next year when they are mandated to go through the combine. It boggles my mind why players won't even get measured. Teams are going to do it during a private workout anyways.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1542 » by bboyskinnylegs » Tue May 16, 2023 3:51 pm

Omari Moore has an impressive standing reach for his height. 6' 5.25'' without shoes, 6' 9.75'' wingspan, 9' 1.50'' standing reach.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1543 » by Dalek » Tue May 16, 2023 4:14 pm

Bufkin 6'4 no shoes 6'75 WS 187 lbs
Hawkins 6'4 no shoes 6'75 WS 186 lbs
Hood-Schifino 6'425 no shoes 6'10 WS 217 lbs
Terq Smith 6'3 no shoes 6'68 WS 163 lbs

Delon Wright 6'4 no shoes 6'75 WS 181 lbs
Jordan Poole 6'3 no shoes 6'675 WS 191 lbs

Brogdon 6'375 no shoes 6'10 WS 223 lbs
Booker 6'45 no shoes 6'83 WS 206 lbs
Lavine 6'45 no shoes 6'83 WS 181 lbs
Trent Jr. 6'43 no shoes 6'88 WS 204 lbs

I think Bufkin comps out physically closest to Wright. He might be a better shooter, but a much weaker playmaker. Poole and Bufkin are so close it is almost Spiderman man meme worthy.

What I will say is these guys you may want to slot in as PGs are light coming in and may not be NBA ready. The average guard in the NBA is almost 6’4″ and 200 pounds.

Poole took a couple years to find his way at Golden State but is at least a 6 man type with some starter upside. We already watched Trent Jr. who mostly works hard on defense get repeatedly targeted in games because of his size.

Anyone mentioning Brogdon being Bufkin's outcome has wishful thinking. He was 220 lbs with a 6'10 WS coming into the NBA. Can only Hood-Schifino hit that mark even.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1544 » by Dalek » Tue May 16, 2023 4:47 pm

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6’3.25” (without shoes)
190.8 lbs
6’7” wingspan

SG Max Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Kobe Bufkin: 11’6.5”

SG Standing Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Brandin Podziemski: 11’0”

The guy has 500,000 followers on instagram but comes across as humble and hardworking. I'd put him right there with any of the other combos because once he figures out how to harness his athleticism and his jumper - he becomes interesting. HIs defense is already going to be solid coming in (2.5 STL% and a 1.4 BLK%)
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1545 » by MainEvent » Tue May 16, 2023 4:50 pm

George/Sensabaugh/NSJ and others didn't get measured? are they doing more today?
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1546 » by gbball » Tue May 16, 2023 5:06 pm

REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
Indeed wrote:
Not sure I agree with this.
There are multiple factors to be a good defender, such as quick hands, quick feet, wingspan, defensive mindset, etc.
However, wingspan still provides better ground coverage, contesting shot, recovery, etc.

As for game play footage, it is hard to apply that to "potential", otherwise, this year first overall pick would be someone with better performance instead of potential.


Agree. Multiple factors impact great defenders, that's why Marc was able to win the award. However we've seen how disruptive a team full of players with long wingspans can be.


Players aren't disruptive because they have long wingspans. FVV has one of the shortest wingspans in the league and he's disruptive. Being disruptive is a mentality with anticipatory skills and a willingness to have active hands. Having a long wingspan just allows you to be slightly more disruptive if you have that mentality when an extra few inches happens to make a difference in game situations, which isn't often.

I honestly could care less what a player's wingspan is. If they're a good defender or shot maker, it'll show up in the stats and tape, not in their listed wingspan.


Agreed.

Look at guys like Jimmy, who doesn't have a crazy wingspan. I think having too long arms can actually dis-incentivize a player from maxing out their athleticism and they might rely on reaching vs using their feet on defense because it worked before they got to the NBA.

When your arms are long you don't have to do as much jump training. Guys with shorter wingspans have to use their legs more and train harder for the edge.

In a perfect world if two prospects have the same drive, talent and athleticism, you choose the guy with better length, but I think more physical tools can promote taking a shorter path through training while getting similar results, thereby resulting in worse intangibles.

That's my main issue with the wingspan over everything approach. How a person uses their tools is more important than just having them.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1547 » by raincityraptors » Tue May 16, 2023 5:09 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:
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Bufkin did well for his stock.


Bufkin shouldn't make it out of the lottery.

He should be the pick if no one slips.

And if he isn't available at our pick, someone interesting should be.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1548 » by ItsDanger » Tue May 16, 2023 5:10 pm

MainEvent wrote:George/Sensabaugh/NSJ and others didn't get measured? are they doing more today?

Maybe something to hide? Agents playing some kind of strategy? Might be an interesting play to angle your clients towards specific teams. Just speculating.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1549 » by ItsDanger » Tue May 16, 2023 5:14 pm

Wingspan matters if you're a C. Its really relative to the individual's physical profile, skillset, position, etc. If you're small, extra wingspan can help compensate. If you're less skilled, it can create space. So people with really good handles, deep bag, might not be as critical to them.

Most people have neutral wingspans, as you'd expect. As we see in the combine, many have positive wingspans. So by default, you'd assume that wingspans therefore contribute to positive impact on the basketball court.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1550 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue May 16, 2023 5:17 pm

Dalek wrote:
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6’3.25” (without shoes)
190.8 lbs
6’7” wingspan

SG Max Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Kobe Bufkin: 11’6.5”

SG Standing Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Brandin Podziemski: 11’0”

The guy has 500,000 followers on instagram but comes across as humble and hardworking. I'd put him right there with any of the other combos because once he figures out how to harness his athleticism and his jumper - he becomes interesting. HIs defense is already going to be solid coming in (2.5 STL% and a 1.4 BLK%)


Amari had a tough start to the year but came on towards the end and had a good showing in the tournament. He's a first round talent for sure and if a team gets him in the 20's thats a great value play. Brooklyn has 21, 22 - I'd use one on him.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1551 » by gbball » Tue May 16, 2023 5:17 pm

Psubs wrote:
OakleyDokely wrote:Leonard Miller tested out well. He's going to playing at 6'10+ in shoes with a 7'2 wingspan. He doesn't turn 20 until the end of the year. He displayed very nice growth from last year to this year. He was very efficient offensively, he shot well from the line and flashed a 3pt shot. He also has nice defensive positional versatility potential. I think he's going in the lottery.


Isn't he like Chris Bosh lite?


I see it a bit of Bosh in him. Both lefty's, similar build. Bosh was more of a prototypical 4 initially before become a bit of a 3/4 in Miami. I think Miller is more of a 3/4 already.

Not sure if he'd be as good of a rebounder as Bosh was. But you can't knock his production or his physical profile. The improvement he's shown in a short amount of time bodes well for his continued development.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1552 » by raincityraptors » Tue May 16, 2023 5:22 pm

OakleyDokely wrote:Whitehead measured very well. Close to 6'6 without shoes and a 6'10+ wingspan. That size, plus the fact he shot 40+ % from 3 will generate interest.


He also played his season on a bad foot.

If there was a way to trade back for 2 picks and he was one of those picks, I would do it.

You could take a swing with that second pick because Whitehead is probable to outperform his draft slot.

Otherwise give me Kobe or Dick.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1553 » by Dalek » Tue May 16, 2023 5:24 pm

WuTang_OG wrote:Amari had a tough start to the year but came on towards the end and had a good showing in the tournament. He's a first round talent for sure and if a team gets him in the 20's thats a great value play. Brooklyn has 21, 22 - I'd use one on him.


Honestly, the way boards online look, he is probably a second rounder. Something doesn't click for most draft people, but I project after seeing how he played in the Rico UCLA runs and looked like a true lotto pick during those times when matched against the Raps.

Brooklyn is in a really good position. To have those back-to-back firsts is an ideal spot in this draft. You could be getting a Colby Jones/Podziemski plus a big like Clowney/Holmes/Bona. To me 13, is a hard place to draft a good pick that gives you lotto value.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1554 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue May 16, 2023 5:36 pm

this guy a raps fan for sure lol

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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1555 » by ItsDanger » Tue May 16, 2023 6:01 pm

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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1556 » by REJECTEDBYCLARK » Tue May 16, 2023 6:07 pm

Kevin Willis wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
FVV is an exception. IF he had a longer wingspan he would be a huge pest and All-NBA defender. As stated a lot of factors go into being a good defender and wingspan is an important one. That's why I acknowledged Marc Gasol as an excellent defender. Typically guys like OG, Smart (6'9" inches), Green (7'1" inches), JJ (7'5"), Mobley (7'4"), Holiday (6'7"), White (6'8), Bam (7'3"), Lopez (7'5") are on all-defensive teams with a combination of motor and wingspan.


It has nothing to do with wingspan. If each of those players had 3 inches less on their wingspan they would still be in the same class of defender. What would we be talking about like .2 or .3 less stocks per 36?

Nobody here has even argued for wingspan and its effect on shot release point which is weird.

Back to my point, you do not look at a guy who had 3-4 stocks per 36 in college and shy away from taking him because his wingspan is 3 inches shorter than some imaginary magic number. Stats and footage, period. The likelihood is that players putting up those kind of stats have adequate to great wingspans. If they don't, it should not be a deterrent in any regard.


You're doing the moving goal post thing again. We were talking wingspan, I showed that the majority of All-NBA defenders have wingspan of +3 inches or more to their height. That's not a discussion, it is what it is. I also said they have a combination of motor and wingspan which addresses your claim that they will still be a good defender with shorter arms which I am not disputing. They might still be a good defender but not an All-NBA defender.

Somebody did talk about wingspan impacting release point but that hurts your argument more than anything so I was just being polite and leaving out subjective.

Then you switched to stock which is fine but I wasn't talking about stock. If you want to talk about that I can, I think stock is very important. However some players with high stock gamble too much so you have to take that into context. I believe wingspan would help a player block shots and intercept passes. I am not sure what your point here is actually. FVV stock is not that high because he doesn't block shots. Caruso is even worse. Actually going over the NCAA stats of the All-Defensive NBA teams they generally have a stock over 2.0 per 36 but nothing like 3 or 4. Players with that high of a stock tend to not make these teams, probably because they gamble too much but that's a different argument.

I don't feel like discussing this anymore - you win, let's move on.


You're not sure about what my point is then stop acting like you are. I have no idea how to even reply to this so I won't. It's not about winning a discussion, your reply was about how "we've seen how disruptive a team of players with long wingspans can be" and my post was about how wingspan numbers are overrated as a tool to project future success as a player over actual statistical production and gameplay footage. What are you even arguing about? My goalposts are exactly where they've been all along, you're just aiming your kick in the wrong direction.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1557 » by Bruin » Tue May 16, 2023 6:11 pm

Dalek wrote:
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6’3.25” (without shoes)
190.8 lbs
6’7” wingspan

SG Max Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Kobe Bufkin: 11’6.5”

SG Standing Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Brandin Podziemski: 11’0”

The guy has 500,000 followers on instagram but comes across as humble and hardworking. I'd put him right there with any of the other combos because once he figures out how to harness his athleticism and his jumper - he becomes interesting. HIs defense is already going to be solid coming in (2.5 STL% and a 1.4 BLK%)

I’ve watched him all year. Thought he’d be returning to college because his stock wasn’t as high for some reason. I think he’s gonna work his way into the 17-22 range and be a good pro

Definitely a humble kid and very hardworking. Loves the game. He struggled with an injury in high school that seemed to hurt his athleticism and then hurt his ankle during his freshman year but towards late February and March he started showing flashes of the athleticism returning

Definitely an interesting prospect. Won’t be surprised if a team takes him earlier than expected. I think he carves out a nice role in the league
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1558 » by WuTang_CMB » Tue May 16, 2023 6:17 pm

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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1559 » by REJECTEDBYCLARK » Tue May 16, 2023 6:20 pm

gbball wrote:
REJECTEDBYCLARK wrote:
Kevin Willis wrote:
Agree. Multiple factors impact great defenders, that's why Marc was able to win the award. However we've seen how disruptive a team full of players with long wingspans can be.


Players aren't disruptive because they have long wingspans. FVV has one of the shortest wingspans in the league and he's disruptive. Being disruptive is a mentality with anticipatory skills and a willingness to have active hands. Having a long wingspan just allows you to be slightly more disruptive if you have that mentality when an extra few inches happens to make a difference in game situations, which isn't often.

I honestly could care less what a player's wingspan is. If they're a good defender or shot maker, it'll show up in the stats and tape, not in their listed wingspan.


Agreed.

Look at guys like Jimmy, who doesn't have a crazy wingspan. I think having too long arms can actually dis-incentivize a player from maxing out their athleticism and they might rely on reaching vs using their feet on defense because it worked before they got to the NBA.

When your arms are long you don't have to do as much jump training. Guys with shorter wingspans have to use their legs more and train harder for the edge.

In a perfect world if two prospects have the same drive, talent and athleticism, you choose the guy with better length, but I think more physical tools can promote taking a shorter path through training while getting similar results, thereby resulting in worse intangibles.

That's my main issue with the wingspan over everything approach. How a person uses their tools is more important than just having them.


https://craftednba.com/player-traits/length

Even if we assumed above average wingspan numbers relative to position alone had some kind of game-changing correlation with defensive impact (processing speed, effort and IQ is infinitely more important IMO) the last I checked basketball involves offensive gameplay as well. That list will show you tons of elite offensive players with below average to average wingspans for their position.

Nobody is denying having a good player who also happens to be long is a huge plus, but there are plenty of players who aren't so long who can carve up ones who are on the court.

Masai has just brainwashed a lot of our fanbase, it's unfortunate.
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Re: 2023 Draft Discussion Part 4 

Post#1560 » by Psubs » Tue May 16, 2023 6:28 pm

Dalek wrote:
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6’3.25” (without shoes)
190.8 lbs
6’7” wingspan

SG Max Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Kobe Bufkin: 11’6.5”

SG Standing Vertical Reach
5. Amari Bailey/Brandin Podziemski: 11’0”

The guy has 500,000 followers on instagram but comes across as humble and hardworking. I'd put him right there with any of the other combos because once he figures out how to harness his athleticism and his jumper - he becomes interesting. HIs defense is already going to be solid coming in (2.5 STL% and a 1.4 BLK%)


Seems like a good kid.



Looks like his 3's are mainly corner 3's or hugging the line. UCLA waas stacked so likely not the focus of the defense. He was like the SG and his A/T of just under 1 is like that of a SF/PF.

I would say that Terquavion Smith should be drafted before Bailey (who looks like Malachi Flynn out there). Mojave King might be a better choice in the early 2nd than Amari Bailey. I don't see Bailey being better than Tre Mann.
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