**The Official Karl-Anthony Towns Thread: Part Two**

[frankenwolf]

Replace KAT with DLO in that first quote and it's accurate.

Not a single thing KAT has done or said backs up that claim (in fact it shows the opposite). KAT doesn't care about it being "his" team, he just wants to win.

The franchise player is introduced last prior to the opening tip. Yet, Towns continues to hold that spot. Do you think starting next season Edwards will be there?

Absolutely... and KAT will continue to be happy for the kid

[urinesane]

Replace KAT with DLO in that first quote and it's accurate.

Not a single thing KAT has done or said backs up that claim (in fact it shows the opposite). KAT doesn't care about it being "his" team, he just wants to win.

The franchise player is introduced last prior to the opening tip. Yet, Towns continues to hold that spot. Do you think starting next season Edwards will be there?

Also, this is not a rule by any means. Take a look at this article on the subject.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-player-does-each-nba-team-introduce-first-who-comes-last-and-why/



Up until this coming season KAT HAS been best player on the team, so it makes sense (if you want to argue that point we're probably just done with the convo).

However, there are multiple stars on the team now (FINALLY!!!), so who really cares what order they are announced in? I mean, you seem to really care, but I doubt the players in this scenario do (though I'm sure other players elsewhere do). I can't imagine KAT or Ant (or Rudy for that matter) give two sh*ts about who's name is called where, if it means they are winning I doubt it's even considered. Maybe YOU would care if you were in their position, but in reality I don't think it really matters to them.

They are getting paid max money to play a game they love and all three are looking to win above all else.

[shrink]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

[urinesane]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling.

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? As an example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

I think it's just a matter of people getting used to things, no matter how exceptional they are, until it's no longer good enough. It's basically the same principle of corporations in the US at play (exponential growth at all costs, anything less = failure).

Even exceptional output becomes normal at some point with many people. They continue to shift their expectations further until it hits a breaking point. All of the ideas being thrown around in KAT trade scenarios have been ridiculous AND incredibly reactionary (mostly to the Gobert trade which is even more mind numbing).

All of the trade KAT requests are focused on selling him off based on an emotional reaction to this season. None of it is based on making the team better, when people don't get what they want (this year the level of success they expected based on the Gobert trade) they react based on that disappointment, rather than what would logically be the best move.

Which is why you see so many people wanting to trade KAT for pennies on the dollar while he is in his prime on a longterm contract. After last season the majority of the fan base was focused on getting KAT to sign on longterm, but now that he was hurt most of this year, they are acting out of fear (What if he is declining? What if he continues to have health issues? He won't let Ant be the alpha! He makes too much money! etc)

The main issue with the team this season is that their best player was hurt for most of the season, but the solution to that is getting KAT healthy (bring back Arnie Kander*!) not turning him into role players and picks.

If you sprain your ankle you let it heal and build strength up (and maybe take precautions in the future to avoid re-injuring it) you don't cut it off and replace it with a peg, because you think it's holding you back.

*Damn, just looked it up and Orlando hired Kander. Great pick up on their part.

[Baseline81]

Up until this coming season KAT HAS been best player on the team, so it makes sense (if you want to argue that point we're probably just done with the convo).

However, there are multiple stars on the team now (FINALLY!!!), so who really cares what order they are announced in? I mean, you seem to really care, but I doubt the players in this scenario do (though I'm sure other players elsewhere do). I can't imagine KAT or Ant (or Rudy for that matter) give two sh*ts about who's name is called where, if it means they are winning I doubt it's even considered. Maybe YOU would care if you were in their position, but in reality I don't think it really matters to them.

They are getting paid max money to play a game they love and all three are looking to win above all else.

And you know this how? You post your opinion as fact. And I, along with others, are rather tired of it.

And yes, I do care. But then again, I come from a time of watching the Bulls introduce Jordan in the manner they did.

[m2002brian]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

Lol. What a useless stat.

KAT is maybe, maybe better than 2 of those guys.

[TimberKat]

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER
1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

Lol. What a useless stat.

KAT is maybe, maybe better than 2 of those guys.

I think everyone on this list are HOFer (not sure about Pettie and Jonston). If he is as good or better than 2, that is a huge accomplishment. I think in Town's second year, he was voted as the players that most GM wants to build the team around (never like the phase but that is another story). What's holding him back is his defense. I think he maybe the worst on this list. He also doesn't have a go-to move. Hopefully, we will see the HOF Towns next year.

[urinesane]

Up until this coming season KAT HAS been best player on the team, so it makes sense (if you want to argue that point we're probably just done with the convo).

However, there are multiple stars on the team now (FINALLY!!!), so who really cares what order they are announced in? I mean, you seem to really care, but I doubt the players in this scenario do (though I'm sure other players elsewhere do). I can't imagine KAT or Ant (or Rudy for that matter) give two sh*ts about who's name is called where, if it means they are winning I doubt it's even considered. Maybe YOU would care if you were in their position, but in reality I don't think it really matters to them.

They are getting paid max money to play a game they love and all three are looking to win above all else.

And you know this how? You post your opinion as fact. And I, along with others, are rather tired of it.

And yes, I do care. But then again, I come from a time of watching the Bulls introduce Jordan in the manner they did.

Click my name and then choose "Add foe" under the groups if you don't want to view my posts.

Outside of declaring KAT the best player on the roster up until this season, I haven't stated anything as definitive fact (if you disagree with that, then there is no real discussion to be had here because you would be perceiving a completely different reality than I).

So in what way does what I posted infer that "I know" something? I simply said that you can't know and offered a counter perspective. Usually when someone says "I doubt" and "I can't imagine" and "I don't really think" there is an opinion following it.

Neither of us can definitively know, but based on the actual evidence we've seen (which you have presented zero) leans more towards my opinion than yours. I'm happy to take a look at some actual data/quotes/info that you may have outside of "KAT was announced last this year and Ant should be next year, but I don't think KAT would be OK with that. If you have ANYTHING else, please post it, otherwise you're just reading deep into nothing.

Otherwise I'll just take it as the fake drama fans try to drum up when they are bored in the offseason it appears to be on the surface.

Also, speak for yourself rather than acting like you are representing a group. You're just another in a group of people here that seem to enjoy being miserable following this team and whether it's subconscious or not are looking for reasons to sabotage it just as sh*t is starting to get interesting on the court. I'm not here to agree with everyone, but it would be nice to have a discussion based in reality instead of people's emotional reactions and tea leaf reading.

[shrink]

Lol. What a useless stat.

KAT is maybe, maybe better than 2 of those guys.

Ok, pick your own. I named 19 stats that Towns was listed on, and provided the link.

[fattymcgee]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

Minnesota fans are stupid. Whether you're talking Wolves or Vikings they always bitch about what a player/coach can't do instead of what they can do. They hyperfocus on the negatives and end up ragging on every player that's ever been employed by a MN franchise. In football they always complain about the QB and/or coach. I remember when we had the highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL and people were complaining about Billick.
People complained that KG wouldn't take over the end of games and wanted to replace him.
Our fans are too dumb to realize there are no perfect players.

[fattymcgee]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

Lol. What a useless stat.

KAT is maybe, maybe better than 2 of those guys.

Useless stat?
Every single one of those players (top 25 in PER) is a HOFer. I'd say that a pretty dammed good stat to judge a player.

[urinesane]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

1. Michael Jordan* 27.91
2. Nikola Jokić 27.65
3. LeBron James 27.22
4. Anthony Davis 26.96
5. Shaquille O'Neal* 26.43
6. David Robinson* 26.18
7. Wilt Chamberlain* 26.16
8. Bob Pettit* 25.45
9. Kevin Durant 25.29
10. Giannis Antetokounmpo 24.92
11. Neil Johnston* 24.86
12. Charles Barkley* 24.63
13. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.58
14. Karl-Anthony Towns 24.42
15. James Harden 24.35
16. Chris Paul 24.34
17. Tim Duncan* 24.22
18. Magic Johnson* 24.11
19. Karl Malone* 23.90
20. Stephen Curry 23.84
21. Hakeem Olajuwon* 23.59
22. Julius Erving* 23.58
23. Larry Bird* 23.50
24. Dwyane Wade 23.48
25. Kawhi Leonard 23.42

Minnesota fans are stupid. Whether you're talking Wolves or Vikings they always bitch about what a player/coach can't do instead of what they can do. They hyperfocus on the negatives and end up ragging on every player that's ever been employed by a MN franchise. In football they always complain about the QB and/or coach. I remember when we had the highest scoring offense in the history of the NFL and people were complaining about Billick.
People complained that KG wouldn't take over the end of games and wanted to replace him.
Our fans are too dumb to realize there are no perfect players.

I couldn't agree more. It's basically manifest destiny at this point, but they're stuck in a feedback loop and can't see their part in it.

[urinesane]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/townska01.html

If you scroll to the bottom of this page, you’ll find a player’s appearance on “Leaderboards, Awards and Honors.” As you can imagine, Towns is listed in many separate years for many things. But one interesting thing bbref does is compare your average production to current players, and all players that have ever played in the NBA. Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

Points Per Game: 11th among Active Players, 29th among Career NBA
Rebounds Per Game: 3rd, 25th
Blocks Per Game: 13th, 92nd
FG Percentage: 19th, 60th
3-PT FG%: xx, 66th
2 PT FG%: 14th, 25th
EFF FG%: 12th, 19th
TS%: 6th, 9th
Minutes Per Game, 15th, xx
PER: 6th, 14th
WS/48: 12th, 33rd
BPM: 12th, 29th
OBPM: 10th, 17th
ORtg: 8th, 13th
Usage%: xx, 46th
Total RB%: 9th, 24th
ORB%, 13th, xx
DRB%, 9th, 13th
Block%: 11th, 59th

Does Towns get treated like he is on lists with the best players today, and forever? For example, he’s 14th all time in PER

Lol. What a useless stat.

KAT is maybe, maybe better than 2 of those guys.

Useless stat?
Every single one of those players (top 25 in PER) is a HOFer. I'd say that a pretty dammed good stat to judge a player.

He means that it's a useless stat as far a confirming his bias. There are a lot of people on here that no matter how much data/stats or reasonable logical thoughts, they'll simply ignore it and repeat the same stuff they always have (but without refuting it with data/stats/reasonable logical thoughts).

For a better time on the forum and to avoid the people you described in your previous post, I'd suggest adding these names to your "foes" list.


[No]

Most of the above have posted the same arguments since they've been here and end up just talking to themselves most of the time.

Also, please post more, there's only a handful of posters that keep me coming back here and you seem like you'll be one of them if you stick around.

[m2002brian]

Just saying per is a bad stat.
You really think KG is worse than KAT? Because KG isn’t in the top 15. Paul Pierce? Cough… Kobe Bryant? Patrick Ewing? Scottie Pippen? Shawn Kemp? Rasheed Wallace? The list goes on. It’s just a bad stat that is supposed to show impact on TEAM winning and I think we all know how well the team was doing before Jimmy and now Ant.
Come on really? It’s easily googleable to find out just how flawed per is.

[urinesane]

Just saying per is a bad stat.
You really think KG is worse than KAT? Because KG isn’t in the top 15. Paul Pierce? Cough… Kobe Bryant? Patrick Ewing? Scottie Pippen? Shawn Kemp? Rasheed Wallace? The list goes on. It’s just a bad stat that is supposed to show impact on TEAM winning and I think we all know how well the team was doing before Jimmy and now Ant.
Come on really? It’s easily googleable to find out just how flawed per is.

You seem to have ignored the context/pretext of the post:

Keep in mind that Towns hasn’t gotten old enough to hurt his averages with eventual decline, and he started as a rookie as a very good NBA player. Still, even factoring in last season, his placement among his peers is startling!

He never said that KAT is better than the players you listed, but the fact that he is on that list currently ISN'T A BAD THING.

I think his main point isn't that KAT is a lock for the HoF, but moreso that people's perceptions and emotions when it comes to KAT (and diminishing him in order to float trade ideas) are not based in reality when it comes to the actual stats.

Feel free to pivot to "the eye test" or "empty stats" type arguments that usually come from the haters around here, but understand that so far, pretty much every metric (outside of dragging a team into relevancy) shows KAT to be a top tier player.

[m2002brian]

Ok if we’re going to go with the spirit of the original post; why are turnovers and personal fouls left off the leaderboard stats.

Those are the main two criticism the KAT traders (not haters) have about him. The two things that almost completely negate his offensive game.

As an objective basketball mind, besides shooting, what does KAT actually excel at?
He’s gone away from his post game. He is continually lost on defense. He can’t stay healthy 3/4 of the last four seasons. Nobody has ever denied that he is a great scorer. It’s just that there is so much more to the game. Mentally, emotionally, defensively, availability, he’s been MIA. These are real concerns. To just dismiss them because the stats, which favor offense, is a dereliction of duty if you’re a GM. Being the name of this forum is RealGM, maybe some of us take that very literal.

[Baseline81]

Click my name and then choose "Add foe" under the groups if you don't want to view my posts.

Outside of declaring KAT the best player on the roster up until this season, I haven't stated anything as definitive fact (if you disagree with that, then there is no real discussion to be had here because you would be perceiving a completely different reality than I).

So in what way does what I posted infer that "I know" something? I simply said that you can't know and offered a counter perspective. Usually when someone says "I doubt" and "I can't imagine" and "I don't really think" there is an opinion following it.

Neither of us can definitively know, but based on the actual evidence we've seen (which you have presented zero) leans more towards my opinion than yours. I'm happy to take a look at some actual data/quotes/info that you may have outside of "KAT was announced last this year and Ant should be next year, but I don't think KAT would be OK with that. If you have ANYTHING else, please post it, otherwise you're just reading deep into nothing.

Otherwise I'll just take it as the fake drama fans try to drum up when they are bored in the offseason it appears to be on the surface.

Also, speak for yourself rather than acting like you are representing a group. You're just another in a group of people here that seem to enjoy being miserable following this team and whether it's subconscious or not are looking for reasons to sabotage it just as sh*t is starting to get interesting on the court. I'm not here to agree with everyone, but it would be nice to have a discussion based in reality instead of people's emotional reactions and tea leaf reading.

Because I am not someone who simply wishes the Wolves to run it back as you do, I'm labeled as the underline?

Note I realize this is a Towns thread, however, look at the coaches being fired. Obviously, those in charge expected more and felt a change was needed. I happen to fall under the same when it comes to Finch. We differ on that. Again, why does that make me the underline?

Back to Towns, who will make $36M next season before jumping to $49M in 2024-25 -- a steep price to pay for a second fiddle, especially when you factor in the other salaries (including extensions for Edwards and McDaniels). I'm actually very curious what sort of production you expect from him going forward. Do you think he'll put up what he averaged two years ago -- 24.6 PPG (on .529 FG% and .410 3P%), 9.8 REB, 3.6 AST, 1.1 BLK? I don't see that happening. Don't get me wrong, he'll put on a show here and there, but I sense his FGA and stats will be more akin to this season. That's not worth the amount he's currently and will be paid in the future. So I ask for a third time, why the underline?

[shrink]

Ok if we’re going to go with the spirit of the original post; why are turnovers and personal fouls left off the leaderboard stats.

Those are the main two criticism the KAT traders (not haters) have about him. The two things that almost completely negate his offensive game.

C’mon. Look what you just wrote.

His career average is 2.7 TO and 3.4 PFs. But he also averages 23 PPG on a .577 eFG% and 11.2 RB!

It’s fine to have different views on a player, and there certainly are concerns within Towns game, but “Almost completely negate Towns’ offensive game?” That statement is absurd, and should be a wake up call to question your own objectivity.

[m2002brian]

Ok if we’re going to go with the spirit of the original post; why are turnovers and personal fouls left off the leaderboard stats.

Those are the main two criticism the KAT traders (not haters) have about him. The two things that almost completely negate his offensive game.

C’mon. Look what you just wrote.

His career average is 2.7 TO and 3.4 PFs. But he also averages 23 PPG on a .577 eFG% and 11.2 RB!

It’s fine to have different views on a player, and there certainly are concerns within Towns game, but “Almost completely negate Towns’ offensive game?” That statement is absurd, and should be a wake up call to question your own objectivity.

Come on Shrink. I know you’re a numbers guy, but hear me out.

Turnovers lead to opposition baskets. Fouls lead to being less aggressive, both offensively and most important defensively. But beyond the numbers there is phycology involved. Yogi Berra wasn’t lying when he said “90 percent of the game is half mental”.
Picking up fouls changed how the coach may use you. Maybe not have you drive as much, because you tend to pick up charging fouls. Maybe you get roasted more on defense or just can’t be as aggressive as needed.

You don’t start the game with fouls, so yes, you can score points and get your averages. But, your offensive is negated, by fouls and being turnover prone, when it matters most, the end of the game.
Being indecisive and unable to operate under pressure matter most when the game is on the line. Not the first three quarters.

This is where the numbers fall off and the phycology of the game come into play.

[shrink]

Turnovers are lost possessions, and I could see that hurting psychologically. But rebounds and steals are gained possessions, and Towns career average is 12 a game. If you are looking at this fairly, doesn’t that help psychologically?

Towns is also good at drawing fouls (not as much as he thinks the refs should award him though!). If Towns fouling has all those negative connections, doesn’t him being fouled provide benefit for the Timberwolves?

I think your distaste for Towns (and I admit there are legit reasons to not like him!) has you looking for the bad and overvalueing it, and simultaneously rejecting the good.

In no world does Towns’ usage-based turnovers and personal fouls “almost completely negate his offensive game.”