2023 Draft Discussion Part 4

[God Squad]

Does tanking work? What's the evidence?

Does tanking guarantee a championship? Of course not. But clearly you and Los see the roster completely different than I do. I see a depleted team, with subpar stars and depth. One of the most obvious teams in the league that needs to pivot from "making the play-offs/play-in" and focus on high lotto picks.

At the end of the day all this will be proven in a matter of time. & I firmly believe TwO will be right and whatever team your on begins to move goalposts.

I don't have any goalposts. There is no evidence that tanking works. Do I think that means tanking can NEVER work? Of course not, there isn't nearly enough tangible use cases or data.

But as I've said constantly is that there are multiple avenues to win. Tanking is one avenue, iteratively building on an established roster is another, and there are probably a whole bunch more.

The attitude that tanking is the ONLY answer and avenue to build a winning roster is bizarre to me.

Of course there are a bunch of ways to build. Masai/Bobby has been doing many of them, and they've all sucked so far. The problem begins with Masai/Bobby being attached to a flawed core. Nothing about FVV/Pascal says championship or even secord round. The bench and shooting have abysmal for years..

So IMO it's time we tried another approach. The same approach that Bryan Colangelo did that got us all our assets, but hopefully faster in timeline lol. I don't see what's to be optimistic about a Pascal/FVV lead team, but you'll find a way.

[God Squad]

Duff & Los will likely tell you Purdle was worth it and tanking doesn't work.

Does tanking work? What's the evidence?

In the extreme sense of scorched earth tanking probably doesn't work. But whether it's strategic or not it's an avenue to cheap talent that you can build with. From there as you develop that talent you then add pieces through trade, free agency or more draft picks. The biggest thing is getting the piece to build with.

If fans can't tell, the Raptors cupboard is F'n empty with young talent. We need to take the step back.

[Duffman100]

Does tanking guarantee a championship? Of course not. But clearly you and Los see the roster completely different than I do. I see a depleted team, with subpar stars and depth. One of the most obvious teams in the league that needs to pivot from "making the play-offs/play-in" and focus on high lotto picks.

At the end of the day all this will be proven in a matter of time. & I firmly believe TwO will be right and whatever team your on begins to move goalposts.

I don't have any goalposts. There is no evidence that tanking works. Do I think that means tanking can NEVER work? Of course not, there isn't nearly enough tangible use cases or data.

But as I've said constantly is that there are multiple avenues to win. Tanking is one avenue, iteratively building on an established roster is another, and there are probably a whole bunch more.

The attitude that tanking is the ONLY answer and avenue to build a winning roster is bizarre to me.

Of course there are a bunch of ways to build. Masai/Bobby has been doing many of them, and they've all sucked so far. The problem begins with Masai/Bobby being attached to a flawed core. Nothing about FVV/Pascal says championship or even secord round. The bench and shooting have abysmal for years..

So IMO it's time we tried another approach. The same approach that Bryan Colangelo did that got us all our assets, but hopefully faster in timeline lol. I don't see what's to be optimistic about a Pascal/FVV lead team, but you'll find a way.

Masai and Bobby have all sucked so far, except for, you know, the near decade of winning teams that ended up in a championship...

The Bryan Colangelo method is what led us to draft largely from the 8-13th pick year over year which is what many are now decrying as treadmilling.

[Duffman100]

Duff & Los will likely tell you Purdle was worth it and tanking doesn't work.

Does tanking work? What's the evidence?

In the extreme sense of scorched earth tanking probably doesn't work. But whether it's strategic or not it's an avenue to cheap talent that you can build with. From there as you develop that talent you then add pieces through trade, free agency or more draft picks. The biggest thing is getting the piece to build with.

Sure and ignoring that Poeltl and Koloko are not pieces to 'build' with is a little disingenuous.

Yes we dealt a late first and got an early second. So we did get a young prospect in Koloko. Yes we did deal a 1st rounder. But we also got a starting center in the prime of his career that we will most likely extend.

[God Squad]

I don't have any goalposts. There is no evidence that tanking works. Do I think that means tanking can NEVER work? Of course not, there isn't nearly enough tangible use cases or data.

But as I've said constantly is that there are multiple avenues to win. Tanking is one avenue, iteratively building on an established roster is another, and there are probably a whole bunch more.

The attitude that tanking is the ONLY answer and avenue to build a winning roster is bizarre to me.

Of course there are a bunch of ways to build. Masai/Bobby has been doing many of them, and they've all sucked so far. The problem begins with Masai/Bobby being attached to a flawed core. Nothing about FVV/Pascal says championship or even secord round. The bench and shooting have abysmal for years..

So IMO it's time we tried another approach. The same approach that Bryan Colangelo did that got us all our assets, but hopefully faster in timeline lol. I don't see what's to be optimistic about a Pascal/FVV lead team, but you'll find a way.

Masai and Bobby have all sucked so far, except for, you know, the near decade of winning teams that ended up in a championship...

The Bryan Colangelo method is what led us to draft largely from the 8-13th pick year over year which is what many are now decrying as treadmilling.

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that. I don't like BC (awful trades/and drafter most of time), but DeMar was huge, and so was Ross/JV.

[Lord_Zedd]

Happy that Houston got 4. They aren't going anywhere anytime soon even if they get Harden.

Jalen Green, Jabari Smith, Amen Thompson (as per mocks where they usually follow), Sengun, Eason

It's just a bunch of guys that need great coaching and patience.

Jabari Smith and their 4th pick are going to be sacrificed for another star to pair with Harden

I tried drafting up a trade for Pascal to Houston for 2-3 of their young guys, but apparently its not possible since they don't have much salary to match Pascal's. Bummer.

Houston will have a boatload of free capspace this summer to absorb a contract like Siakam. They won't need much to match salaries, even after maxing out Harden.

[Duffman100]

Of course there are a bunch of ways to build. Masai/Bobby has been doing many of them, and they've all sucked so far. The problem begins with Masai/Bobby being attached to a flawed core. Nothing about FVV/Pascal says championship or even secord round. The bench and shooting have abysmal for years..

So IMO it's time we tried another approach. The same approach that Bryan Colangelo did that got us all our assets, but hopefully faster in timeline lol. I don't see what's to be optimistic about a Pascal/FVV lead team, but you'll find a way.

Masai and Bobby have all sucked so far, except for, you know, the near decade of winning teams that ended up in a championship...

The Bryan Colangelo method is what led us to draft largely from the 8-13th pick year over year which is what many are now decrying as treadmilling.

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that.

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

[God Squad]

Masai and Bobby have all sucked so far, except for, you know, the near decade of winning teams that ended up in a championship...

The Bryan Colangelo method is what led us to draft largely from the 8-13th pick year over year which is what many are now decrying as treadmilling.

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that.

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

[God Squad]

Masai and Bobby have all sucked so far, except for, you know, the near decade of winning teams that ended up in a championship...

The Bryan Colangelo method is what led us to draft largely from the 8-13th pick year over year which is what many are now decrying as treadmilling.

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that.

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

No No. We loved Masai for what he did. But that's then, this is now. Ain't nobody saying " IN MASAI WE TRUST" anymore.

[Duffman100]

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that.

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

So again, praise Colangelo for supplying Masai with the prospects to trade to win the title. Along with those 'prospects' we had to send draft capital to win that title.

Criticize Masai for not having young prospects when the draft capital was sent out to win the title. Since then we've drafted,

Flynn (29th pick)
Barnes (4th pick)
Koloko (33rd pick)

and now we have the 13th pick.

[ATLTimekeeper]

What happened to this thread?

[PhilBlackson]

I’m just praying we get Coulibaly.

This franchise needs to forget about current fit etc. It should be (truly) painfully obvious that there’s no reason to continue to make decisions based on trying to fit around a flawed “core” but to move on to a new era. So yeah yeah Cason is a nice guard but idc lol his upside is limited as is NS Jr and even Keyonte who I like. But this team clearly needs to find ways to increase their ceiling and Bilal (and lesser extent Sidy) are the only players in our range that I’m seeing that MAY have an all-star upside. I’m just praying Presti is enamoured with Miller and doesn’t take away what little excitement I have for this pick with Coulibaly. I would legit stop watching this team entirely if we took JFS until this management team was gone because clearly they’d be ridiculously overcommitted to a team that has more than shown that we should be moving on from already.

[Morse Code]

Elated: Brice, Bufkin, Hawkins
Happy: Wallace, Coulibaly, Cissoko
Would trust Masai/meh: Gradey, Leonard Miller, Keynote George
Don't want: Jalen Hood-Schifino, GG Jackson, Rupert, Nick Smith Jr,

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

[Duffman100]

What happened to this thread?

People can't decide whether to praise 'treadmilling' from the past without realize they'd then be approving of the current 'treadmilling' in the present.

[God Squad]

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

So again, praise Colangelo for supplying Masai with the prospects to trade to win the title. Along with those 'prospects' we had to send draft capital to win that title.

Criticize Masai for not having young prospects when the draft capital was sent out to win the title. Since then we've drafted,

Flynn (29th pick)
Barnes (4th pick)
Koloko (33rd pick)

and now we have the 13th pick.

Then he should have pivoted out of making the play-ins. Simple as that. Or make moves with the players you have, instead of being complacent and doing nothing. Not addressing the shooting or the bench for years is a travesty.

I'm done. You'll always spin it as Masai/Bobby are doing what they can/good job. When the reality is they've been infatuated by a flawed core.

We'll see in time Duff. The good thing with these situations is they can be proven with time, and it won't be subjective.

[Duffman100]

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

So again, praise Colangelo for supplying Masai with the prospects to trade to win the title. Along with those 'prospects' we had to send draft capital to win that title.

Criticize Masai for not having young prospects when the draft capital was sent out to win the title. Since then we've drafted,

Flynn (29th pick)
Barnes (4th pick)
Koloko (33rd pick)

and now we have the 13th pick.

Then he should have pivoted out of making the play-ins. Simple as that. Or make moves with the players you have, instead of being complacent and doing nothing. Not addressing the shooting or the bench for years is a travesty.

I'm done. You'll always spin it as Masai/Bobby are going what they can/good job. When the reality is they're attached to flawed core. We'll see in time Duff.

And I'm looking for the criticism of them to be logical and based in facts. And not using double talk to praise a past regime for the exact thing this current regime is being criticized for.

They aren't infallible. I don't like the limited protections on the Poeltl pick, I don't love 3 major free agents at once. I don't love the lack of focus on shooting. I criticize them plenty.

[Indeed]

Those picks and players LEAD us to winning a championship. You'll never change my mind on that.

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

I have to disagree. I think OG is still a prospect. Achiuwa is a good prospect (people here being patient?). Banton is a good prospect (I compare him to Powell, late 1st and all he needs is shooting).

If you are looking for star power, it usually comes from trades.
Keep in mind that the players lead us to championship team has largely due to Lowry (and Leonard), who we got it from trade. Those we draft all got traded for the championship pieces: DeRozan (worth the same as Leonard?), Ross, Valanciunas, Wright, Poeltl. Who left on that championship that we drafted? Siakam (low 1st), OG (low 1st), Powell (2nd), VanVleet (undraft)?

[Psubs]

Jabari Smith and their 4th pick are going to be sacrificed for another star to pair with Harden

I tried drafting up a trade for Pascal to Houston for 2-3 of their young guys, but apparently its not possible since they don't have much salary to match Pascal's. Bummer.

Houston will have a boatload of free capspace this summer to absorb a contract like Siakam. They won't need much to match salaries, even after maxing out Harden.

They sign Harden and trade Jalen Green, Jabari Smith and Usman Garuba for Pascal and Precious. They draft Amen Thompson and Lively (P&R lob threat like Capela) for Harden .

PG Porter - TyTy
SG Harden - Christopher - Amen
SF Tate - Eason - KJ
PF Pascal - Precious
C Sengun - Lively

[God Squad]

So here's where the circular / double argument.

Applaud Colangelo for treadmilling for years to acquire lottery talent that we used in trades.
Criticize Masai for treadmilling leading us to get later picks in the lottery.

Don't give Masai credit for turning BC's hodgepodge of crap roster and turning it into a cohesive, championship unit. We won the title 7 years after BC left...

Masai has no good young prospects. Other than Barnes.

I have to disagree. I think OG is still a prospect. Achiuwa is a good prospect (people here being patient?). Banton is a good prospect (I compare him to Powell, late 1st and all he needs is shooting).

If you are looking for star power, it usually comes from trades.
Keep in mind that the players lead us to championship team has largely due to Lowry (and Leonard), who we got it from trade. Those we draft all got traded for the championship pieces: DeRozan (worth the same as Leonard?), Ross, Valanciunas, Wright, Poeltl. Who left on that championship that we drafted? Siakam (low 1st), OG (low 1st), Powell (2nd), VanVleet (undraft)?

OG is the only other prospect ( not even sure he's a prospect TBH) who I think is good, with great value. TBH I don't know what Precious value would be, but i'm not optimistic about it. No one cares about Banton lol, or Koloko.

It's not even star power i'm looking for, it's PRODUCTION! Banton is a zero right now, Koloko flashed, but so far away still.

[InfraRedshaw]

Do we all think that it's a guard focused draft?

I am not sure if it's a lead guard, or a combo / scoring guard we need, but feels like we are def in the guard market with this pick, right?