Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[Plossum]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Worth noting the Bucks have a committed $158m already for next year's roster for 10 players. This number included Midds' opt-in salary and Jevon's op-in salary. It does not include Brolo, Thanasis, Crowder, Ingles or Wes.

The second apron will kick in around the $180m mark. If Midds opts out and demands a max to re-sign, he'd be eligible for 5/272 from us. Let's assume this happens, our 23-24 salary is now 172m. If Brolo re-signs at say 3/60 then we're at 192m and in that second apron (and that's before we even think about what we do with Jevon or how we fill out the other roster spots). This now really hamstrings our ability to upgrade the roster (we can still trade but can't bring in more money than we send out in a deal).

So at this point we're kinda screwed. The tax payments will be brutal and we're locked into a team of Giannis, Midds, Jrue, Brook, Bobby, Grayson, Marjon, AJ, Pat and whatever vet min guys we can get. Tax bill will also be brutal. This is worst case scenario though.

Best option is Midd's opting in. This means we're starting at the $158m in committed salary and have a bit more flexibility to work with. This is pretty unlikely. Medium option is he opts in and signs and extension which means a deal around 4/220. This at least takes a bit of pressure off for 23-24 season but year after we're right up against that apron from the get go.

I think you're right PP, we're likely going to lose Brook, Jrue or Midds this off season unless the owners are prepared to pay Warriors level money.

Normally you'd hope the billionaires would just pay the money. But even if they do, once we're over that apron at $180m, we've got next to no levers to improve the roster. I'm not advocating we do it, but it might well be worth gauging Midd's or Jrue's value in relation to the top 5 or so picks this year...

[JayMKE]

If you can get a top 5 pick for either you pull the trigger, there’s no way they’re worth that much in two years and in Jrue’s case maybe retirement.

[drone3]

If you can get a top 5 pick for either you pull the trigger, there’s no way they’re worth that much in two years and in Jrue’s case maybe retirement.

Jrue and Dame is a pretty awesome backcourt. I think they would go for it.

[Gianstoppable]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Worth noting the Bucks have a committed $158m already for next year's roster for 10 players. This number included Midds' opt-in salary and Jevon's op-in salary. It does not include Brolo, Thanasis, Crowder, Ingles or Wes.

The second apron will kick in around the $180m mark. If Midds opts out and demands a max to re-sign, he'd be eligible for 5/272 from us. Let's assume this happens, our 23-24 salary is now 172m. If Brolo re-signs at say 3/60 then we're at 192m and in that second apron (and that's before we even think about what we do with Jevon or how we fill out the other roster spots). This now really hamstrings our ability to upgrade the roster (we can still trade but can't bring in more money than we send out in a deal).

So at this point we're kinda screwed. The tax payments will be brutal and we're locked into a team of Giannis, Midds, Jrue, Brook, Bobby, Grayson, Marjon, AJ, Pat and whatever vet min guys we can get. Tax bill will also be brutal. This is worst case scenario though.

Best option is Midd's opting in. This means we're starting at the $158m in committed salary and have a bit more flexibility to work with. This is pretty unlikely. Medium option is he opts in and signs and extension which means a deal around 4/220. This at least takes a bit of pressure off for 23-24 season but year after we're right up against that apron from the get go.

I think you're right PP, we're likely going to lose Brook, Jrue or Midds this off season unless the owners are prepared to pay Warriors level money.

Normally you'd hope the billionaires would just pay the money. But even if they do, once we're over that apron at $180m, we've got next to no levers to improve the roster. I'm not advocating we do it, but it might well be worth gauging Midd's or Jrue's value in relation to the top 5 or so picks this year...

Count me out on any scenario where we pay Khris 4/220

[machu46]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Yeah, like I said yesterday, I think with the old CBA, it would have been pretty much a no brainer to keep Khris/Jrue or trade them for other established all-star caliber guys. The new CBA changes the math a ton. Some team in our position will end up deciding they simply cannot afford to run things that way and instead opt for getting young and praying you hit on a young star. It’s possible it will be us. Though my guess is that with Giannis’ contract uncertainty, this front office will be very hesitant to do so.

I’d probably rather make a move for someone already in the NBA that we feel good about because I personally don’t foresee anyone after Wemby as being likely to be the caliber of player that we need but it’s possible Horst and Co. do love someone like Scoot or Miller or Thompson or whatever.

I don’t know who the more established young players would be, but I’d probably feel better about a pick in the 6-12 range + a young talented dude that we feel good about. I think it’s entirely possible someone like Cason Wallace or Anthony Black or Taylor Hendricks ends up being better than Scoot/Miller anyways.


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[0BobLobLaw0]

How can a Jrue / Midds trade work with trying to match salaries?

We'd have to take on a garbage contract with the pick, right?

[pifhluk23]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

[MKE_Beers]

What are your thoughts on something like this....

MKE: Sharpe, Nurkic, a protected future 1st (not #3)
PORT: Middleton

Portland gets better today with Middleton and gets rid of a bad salary in Nurkic. Dame, Simons, Midds, Grant, and any OK center makes a pretty good lineup. They also still have #3 to replace Sharpe for the future or flip to add even more to the team.

We get some salary relief, a possible young stud in Sharpe, and another trade asset. I don't love having to carry Nurkic's contract but that's just the cost of doing business. Slot him in as a backup C and ride out the next couple of years until his becomes an expiring contract trade asset.

[JayMKE]

It seems better to take a step back to take 2 steps forward, selling out completely on Jrue/Middleton/Lopez core with Giannis means there isn't going to be another core for Giannis in his 2nd act. I'm thinking these guys are all cooked in 2 years.

[drone3]

With Brandon Miller looking like Midds
and Cason Wallace the next coming of Jrue I think we have our sign that we gotta get younger.

[German Athens]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

[JimmyTheKid]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

There were an unforgivable amount of Bucks fans down on Jimmy Butler during those debates. He is, and always has been, all dog.

[pifhluk23]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

There were an unforgivable amount of Bucks fans down on Jimmy Butler during those debates. He is, and always has been, all dog.

I was looking over old posts, this board seemed to be weighted towards do it, Reddit though I was downvoted every post I wrote in favor. They were livid that we'd consider trading Middleton.

[machu46]

How can a Jrue / Midds trade work with trying to match salaries?

We'd have to take on a garbage contract with the pick, right?

Not necessarily. It's possible a team would give expiring/non-guaranteed contracts depending on who it is. For example, working off my theory of targeting a pick in the 6-12 range of this year's draft, some of these guys would likely match or get close to matching Jrue:

Orlando: Markelle Fultz (expiring), Jonathan Isaac (two years left). Could add in an expiring Gary Harris if we're talking Middleton instead of Jrue depending on what his new contract starts at.

Indiana: They have enough cap space to theoretically just take Jrue without giving any players up, so we could mix and match for whoever we wanted (that they'd agree to move off of)

Washington: Deni Avdija, Monte Morris, Daniel Gafford, and a minimumish salary guy

Utah: Same as Indiana

Dallas: Josh Green + Tim Hardaway Jr. (or Reggie Bullock if you prefer him)

OKC: Lu Dort by himself would work, or alternatively, pretty much any combination of two of their rookie scale contracts (Jalen Williams + Josh Giddey in a best case example)

[jschligs]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

I think I'm on board with FVV. We tried to get him near the deadline, and even his down year shooting wise I think he'd have helped us immensely. Think of all the open 3s he would get while on the court with Giannis.

[Ron Swanson]

If you're looking for the best Jrue package where you're also getting some veteran depth to cover his absence, I keep going back to Washington for #8, Monte Morris, Delon Wright, and Deni. I mean, I only do that to get assets for Dame (or another star level player), but that's the trade.

[ABucksFan]

What are your thoughts on something like this....

MKE: Sharpe, Nurkic, a protected future 1st (not #3)
PORT: Middleton

Portland gets better today with Middleton and gets rid of a bad salary in Nurkic. Dame, Simons, Midds, Grant, and any OK center makes a pretty good lineup. They also still have #3 to replace Sharpe for the future or flip to add even more to the team.

We get some salary relief, a possible young stud in Sharpe, and another trade asset. I don't love having to carry Nurkic's contract but that's just the cost of doing business. Slot him in as a backup C and ride out the next couple of years until his becomes an expiring contract trade asset.

Too good for Bucks. I would runnnnnn. POR says no though....

[JayMKE]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

Doesn't FVV being a streaky shooting sub 6 foot average athlete combo guard with a career 40% FG% nearing the wrong side of 30 & misses a bunch of games bother you? I really don't get it. 40 year old Chris Paul is a better option and that's not saying much.

[SirChurros]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

Doesn't FVV being a streaky shooting sub 6 foot average athlete combo guard with a career 40% FG% nearing the wrong side of 30 & misses a bunch of games bother you? I really don't get it. 40 year old Chris Paul is a better option and that's not saying much.

At a hypothetical price of Bobby+Grayson/Pat?

Absolutely not.

[midranger]

If you're looking for the best Jrue package where you're also getting some veteran depth to cover his absence, I keep going back to Washington for #8, Monte Morris, Delon Wright, and Deni. I mean, I only do that to get assets for Dame (or another star level player), but that's the trade.

I like this trade. Would prefer it’s Middleton. Not sure why Washington would want either though.

Morris
Jrue
Deni
Giannis
Brook

Is an absolute monster of a defensive team.