Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[aboveAverage]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

There were an unforgivable amount of Bucks fans down on Jimmy Butler during those debates. He is, and always has been, all dog.

I was against it and I’ll gladly stand by it. Butler in 2021 wasn’t good enough to win us that championship. If you remember, he was awful against us in that series and we swept the Heat. Khris was a legit all NBA player that year and carried us in multiple games, including 40+ in the finals. There’s an alternate reality where we lose to BKN that year with Jimmy and still don’t have a ring.

I’ll take that championship over any hypothetical trade. We got our title the way we did it and it was 100% worth it. Now do I think Butler is better than Middleton now and the last two years? Absolutely. But I’m happy we didn’t trade Khris back then because we’d maybe have 0 titles with Giannis still.

[GoldenAntlers]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

There were an unforgivable amount of Bucks fans down on Jimmy Butler during those debates. He is, and always has been, all dog.

I don't go there myself, but the people I know who do seem only half a step above "casuals".

[German Athens]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

Doesn't FVV being a streaky shooting sub 6 foot average athlete combo guard with a career 40% FG% nearing the wrong side of 30 & misses a bunch of games bother you? I really don't get it. 40 year old Chris Paul is a better option and that's not saying much.

Considering the potential cost to acquire, the fact that he’s played the same number of games as Jrue over the past two seasons, the nature of shooting being somewhat streaky, and despite his down numbers this year still posting the 30th ranked epm (31st in 22 and 21st in 21) - no, not really.

[Ron Swanson]

If you're looking for the best Jrue package where you're also getting some veteran depth to cover his absence, I keep going back to Washington for #8, Monte Morris, Delon Wright, and Deni. I mean, I only do that to get assets for Dame (or another star level player), but that's the trade.

I like this trade. Would prefer it’s Middleton. Not sure why Washington would want either though.

Morris
Jrue
Deni
Giannis
Brook

Is an absolute monster of a defensive team.

Eh, spacing of that starting-5 is pretty brutal and is still relying too much on Jrue to be your #2 offense guy. Combine that Jrue trade with the proposed Bobby/Pat for FVV one, re-sign the guys we can using bird rights, and you get:

Van Vleet/Morris
Grayson/Wright
Middleton/Deni
Giannis/Crowder
Brook/???

#8 and #60 picks in the draft

I like that a whole lot better from a roster construction standpoint.

[German Athens]

Jrue’s the best perimeter defender in the game, but his prowess on the offensive end in conjunction with that is what makes him a 35m dollar player; however, with 3 post seasons worth of data to back it up, he pretty much loses the ability to shoot outside 16 feet in the playoffs - even on open and wide open looks.

I think if Jrue and Giannis could play in an action together to make life easier on each other, we’d have something, but it just doesn’t appear to be there.

Take the pick n roll with Jrue and Giannis, defenders don’t really need to go over the screen nor does the big need to step up to defend a Jrue three, and inversely Giannis doesn’t have the ability to pop, to clear the paint for a Jrue drive. Those plays usually end up with Jrue taking a three or having a slowmo drive to the rim into traffic.

The Khris-Giannis pick n roll is one of the only symbiotic plays we have that can be scaled up. I’d like to add a third player that could have that sort of relationship with Giannis.

if we can mostly only count on defense from Jrue in the postseason, give me his 1st team defensive guard counterpart at 10m a year and allot that extra money to a player with the offensive ability to complement our main star.

[paulpressey25]

Orlando: Markelle Fultz (expiring), Jonathan Isaac (two years left). Could add in an expiring Gary Harris if we're talking Middleton instead of Jrue depending on what his new contract starts at.

This is the trade:

Jrue ($36mm salary) for pick 6 and pick 11 and Isaac.

Isaac has two years left at $17 million. But this year's deal only has $7mm guaranteed for next year (i.e. we could cut him before Jan 10, 2024 if needed) and then the following year his full $17mm is non-guaranteed.

Orlando can easily absorb more salary due to being under the cap come July 1st.

The real question in the deal above is what do we do with picks #6 and #11? You'd likely trade them for a vet that would fit into the salary cap rules and not blow us into the 2nd apron (or maybe we do if the player(s) coming back are good enough).

[JimmyTheKid]

We wouldn't have any of these problems had we just traded Middleton for Butler. That will go down as the biggest blunder in the Giannis era.

There were an unforgivable amount of Bucks fans down on Jimmy Butler during those debates. He is, and always has been, all dog.

I was against it and I’ll gladly stand by it. Butler in 2021 wasn’t good enough to win us that championship. If you remember, he was awful against us in that series and we swept the Heat. Khris was a legit all NBA player that year and carried us in multiple games, including 40+ in the finals. There’s an alternate reality where we lose to BKN that year with Jimmy and still don’t have a ring.

I’ll take that championship over any hypothetical trade. We got our title the way we did it and it was 100% worth it. Now do I think Butler is better than Middleton now and the last two years? Absolutely. But I’m happy we didn’t trade Khris back then because we’d maybe have 0 titles with Giannis still.

Fair enough. And you're right, we have no idea about the chain of events that woulda, coulda, shoulda occurred after a hypothetical trade. We can play the "maybe" game all day. Might not have a title. Might have three, who knows. I'll gladly take the one we have. That run will forever be the best sports experience of my life. But I think its a bit disingenuous to say, in hindsight, that you wouldn't prefer the superior player. No idea where Jimmy or Khris will end up "all-time" but I'm guessing they won't be positioned very close on that list.

[Turk Nowitzki]

I think there is a lot of merit to the Magic as a realistic trade partner. I can easily see Hammond and co. being ready to stop drafting more young guys and looking to start adding vets around their existing young core.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Worth noting the Bucks have a committed $158m already for next year's roster for 10 players. This number included Midds' opt-in salary and Jevon's op-in salary. It does not include Brolo, Thanasis, Crowder, Ingles or Wes.

The second apron will kick in around the $180m mark. If Midds opts out and demands a max to re-sign, he'd be eligible for 5/272 from us. Let's assume this happens, our 23-24 salary is now 172m. If Brolo re-signs at say 3/60 then we're at 192m and in that second apron (and that's before we even think about what we do with Jevon or how we fill out the other roster spots). This now really hamstrings our ability to upgrade the roster (we can still trade but can't bring in more money than we send out in a deal).

So at this point we're kinda screwed. The tax payments will be brutal and we're locked into a team of Giannis, Midds, Jrue, Brook, Bobby, Grayson, Marjon, AJ, Pat and whatever vet min guys we can get. Tax bill will also be brutal. This is worst case scenario though.

Best option is Midd's opting in. This means we're starting at the $158m in committed salary and have a bit more flexibility to work with. This is pretty unlikely. Medium option is he opts in and signs and extension which means a deal around 4/220. This at least takes a bit of pressure off for 23-24 season but year after we're right up against that apron from the get go.

I think you're right PP, we're likely going to lose Brook, Jrue or Midds this off season unless the owners are prepared to pay Warriors level money.

Normally you'd hope the billionaires would just pay the money. But even if they do, once we're over that apron at $180m, we've got next to no levers to improve the roster. I'm not advocating we do it, but it might well be worth gauging Midd's or Jrue's value in relation to the top 5 or so picks this year...

Dumb question but when does it kick it? Like it seems unnecessarily punitive and retroactive to count any prior season and even next year when 75% have guaranteed or partially guaranteed contracts.

[Ryan5UW]

I still find it ironic that tightening of the salary cap rules in one of the major pro sports is actually making things harder for the team in Milwaukee

[paulpressey25]

Fair enough. And you're right, we have no idea about the chain of events that woulda, coulda, shoulda occurred after a hypothetical trade.

I'm not a Middleton guy, and I'm fine with them not making that deal for Butler. At the time that trade was discussed, Bud was trying instill a winning culture here, and get Giannis to extend his contract. I would be real money that Giannis told the front office that Butler was a jag, and he didn't want to play with him.

As amazing as Butler is, he thrives as the villain Alpha. Don't think he plays nice in the sandbox if there are other stars on his team. We seem to have a history of that.

[Profound23]

I still find it ironic that tightening of the salary cap rules in one of the major pro sports is actually making things harder for the team in Milwaukee

That's my point. We finally have (at worst) a top 5 player, a title contender, and owners who are willing to spend....and now they want to do this mess.

[machu46]

I think there is a lot of merit to the Magic as a realistic trade partner. I can easily see Hammond and co. being ready to stop drafting more young guys and looking to start adding vets around their existing young core.

And I think Jrue (or someone in his mold) would actually make a lot of sense for them too. They have a good amount of playmaking as is with their young frontcourt guys. Jrue would give them another solid shooter/playmaker to play off them while being a dog defensively.

It’s an interesting thought exercise in the very least. I think I’d probably prefer Fultz > Isaac if we’re only taking one of them but not sure Orlando would be interested in that event.


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[paulpressey25]

It’s an interesting thought exercise in the very least. I think I’d probably prefer Fultz > Isaac if we’re only taking one of them but not sure Orlando would be interested in that event.

Would also take Fultz, but I'd doubt they would do that. Note ORL can probably cut Isaac and sign Middleton outright with cap space if they want to do that. That said, think Jrue is the perfect fit for that team.

[Couch Potato]

I keep coming back to an FVV opt-in and trade to us for Portis + Grayson/pat

I think if you have FVV, it eats some of the risk of moving on from Jrue who’s still likely our most valuable asset after Giannis. Use a Jrue trade to get younger.

FVV would give us a stout point of attack defender, a high iq ballhandler, and hopefully a good (if he returns to form) high volume 3pt shooter.

Of course, you could trade for FVV and keep the core 4 - that would give us a hell of a team for next season, but I’d like to see us get some capable youth on the roster, and I think the route above makes enough sense.

I don't mind FVV for Portis,Pat,Allen package. Then we can still trade Holiday for sure. Maybe even Middleton if he opts in or agrees to a sign and trade.

[BucksStatsGuy]

As amazing as Butler is, he thrives as the villain Alpha. Don't think he plays nice in the sandbox if there are other stars on his team. We seem to have a history of that.

While that maybe seems to be the case on the surface level, I don't think Jimmy has really ever played with a serious complementary star up until that trade point. Embiid nowadays is pretty different than 2018-19, and aside from Embiid, the "best" players he had played with post Chicago were.....Karl Anthony Towns, Wiggins, and Ben Simmons, not really a fantastic list of people who take basketball seriously. I think that's what pisses Butler off more, so in that regards, I think he'd play with Giannis just fine.

[Couch Potato]

I think there is a lot of merit to the Magic as a realistic trade partner. I can easily see Hammond and co. being ready to stop drafting more young guys and looking to start adding vets around their existing young core.

Magic gave up tanking quickly to trade for Ibaka.

[PG Graveyard]

Hindsight is 20/20 on Jimmy. 3 teams felt ok giving him away in like a 2 year period. Two of which seemed uninterested in paying him the super max contract. Now 6 years later he’s playing better than ever. I want to know what’s in his stupid **** coffee.

[PG Graveyard]

If we are trading with Orlando we should try for Suggs. Either way the fan in me is uninterested in running it back. After such an epic collapse I at least would like to see a fun offseason

[paulpressey25]

Hindsight is 20/20 on Jimmy. 3 teams felt ok giving him away in like a 2 year period. Two of which seemed uninterested in paying him the super max contract. Now 6 years later he’s playing better than ever. I want to know what’s in his stupid **** coffee.

Hadn't thought of the GNC angle. No question he's playing at a higher level than any other guy about to turn 34, other than Jordan and LeBron.