Bucks Offseason Thread - Trade, news, re-tool discussion

[PG Graveyard]

Hindsight is 20/20 on Jimmy. 3 teams felt ok giving him away in like a 2 year period. Two of which seemed uninterested in paying him the super max contract. Now 6 years later he’s playing better than ever. I want to know what’s in his stupid **** coffee.

Hadn't thought of the GNC angle. No question he's playing at a higher level than any other guy about to turn 34, other than Jordan and LeBron.

Difference is Jordan and Lebron didn’t play their best basketball ever at 34. Better comparison is probably Barry Bonds here minus the expanding head although I guess I can’t confirm that

[emunney]

Was listening to Hollinger and Duncan talk about who might trade lotto picks. Then they went into more detail on the 2nd apron.

This 2nd apron is going to be a major problem. The limits on trading draft picks and having your first rounder drop to the end of round one if you are over the apron 2 out of 4 years is a killer. Then the increased tax penalties.

I believe it means that if Khris Middleton doesn't agree to a deal starting at $30mm a year or less, they will let him walk. Or alternatively, the Jrue for the Scoot pick or for Orlando picks deal to shed salary comes into play.

I think one of those two guys is as good as gone, barring Middleton signing for a discount.

Yeah, like I said yesterday, I think with the old CBA, it would have been pretty much a no brainer to keep Khris/Jrue or trade them for other established all-star caliber guys. The new CBA changes the math a ton. Some team in our position will end up deciding they simply cannot afford to run things that way and instead opt for getting young and praying you hit on a young star. It’s possible it will be us. Though my guess is that with Giannis’ contract uncertainty, this front office will be very hesitant to do so.

I’d probably rather make a move for someone already in the NBA that we feel good about because I personally don’t foresee anyone after Wemby as being likely to be the caliber of player that we need but it’s possible Horst and Co. do love someone like Scoot or Miller or Thompson or whatever.

I don’t know who the more established young players would be, but I’d probably feel better about a pick in the 6-12 range + a young talented dude that we feel good about. I think it’s entirely possible someone like Cason Wallace or Anthony Black or Taylor Hendricks ends up being better than Scoot/Miller anyways.


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Cason Wallace is such a good example of a prospect I like who's going to go 5 spots higher than he'd go in a normal draft. I'd need 3 of him to think about moving Khris or Jrue.

[Ron Swanson]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

[ReasonablySober]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

The thing about Miami though is they were incredibly mediocre literally the entire season. Lowry has been straight up garbage for them. Duncan Robinson has been buried on the bench for over a season now. Martin, Strus, and Vincent's shooting percentages fell off a cliff. Miami homers were actually hoping to lose the play-in games to get a 1.4% chance at Wemby as opposed to getting steamrolled in the first round.

It really makes absolutely no sense, at all, that once they made the playoffs they again look like the #1 team in the East.

[midranger]

Man, we have really struck out on essentially every…
1st round pick
2 way deal
Buyout deal
Mid season trade
… for like 10 years, haven’t we?

[Couch Potato]

If we are trading with Orlando we should try for Suggs. Either way the fan in me is uninterested in running it back. After such an epic collapse I at least would like to see a fun offseason

With the new CBA it's hard to run it back. Maybe we could one more season if Middleton opts in. Then we do tiny tinkering like Bobby,Allen,Pat for something like Rozier to plug-in the starting line up. But heck we had Middleton so long. I think its time to part ways. Heck he was part of the Jennings trade in 2016. Only 7 years or so but feels longer. I'm game to trade all of Middleton,Holiday,Bobby,Pat,Allen.

[German Athens]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

[Couch Potato]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

Oh, absolutely. The likeliest and safest route for us returning to the finals is keeping our core 4 intact, and make changes with the others available.

Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if we even hired a somewhat uninspiring coach, just to return to the finals with the team reenergized and getting enough luck along the way. There’s enough there.

With that said, I know I very much have a grass is greener complex with this team, and I desperately want a guard with quicks to pair with Giannis.

Simons?

[Ron Swanson]

If anything you could use what Miami is doing right now as an argument against this (IMO exaggerated) notion that the window on the Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core is closed. How many times in the past 4-years (since Jimmy came to Miami) have people written them off only for them to slightly retool/shuffle the deck chairs and go on a deep playoff run? That core looked hella overrated and downright cooked when we swept them in embarrassing fashion during the title run, only for them to come back and get within a game of the NBA Finals simply by swapping Dragic and Ariza for two even older dudes (Lowry and Tucker).

The thing about Miami though is they were incredibly mediocre literally the entire season. Lowry has been straight up garbage for them. Duncan Robinson has been buried on the bench for over a season now. Martin, Strus, and Vincent's shooting percentages fell off a cliff. Miami homers were actually hoping to lose the play-in games to get a 1.4% chance at Wemby as opposed to getting steamrolled in the first round.

It really makes absolutely no sense, at all, that once they made the playoffs they again look like the #1 team in the East.

Can't disagree with any of this, but at the same time, 33-year old Jimmy being the best player in these playoffs is gonna cause a lot of people to rethink the idea of when it's smart to pull the plug on a proven veteran core. You could convince me that Khris's knees are cooked, or that the only thing he needs is a full offseason free of rehabbing the knee/wrist stuff and I wouldn't say you're wrong either way. It's just awfully tough to willingly break up a championship core that isn't ancient by NBA terms, and you need to be damn sure that it's not gonna bite you in the ass in an "even worse than Tucker" kind of way.

[JimmyTheKid]

Hindsight is 20/20 on Jimmy. 3 teams felt ok giving him away in like a 2 year period. Two of which seemed uninterested in paying him the super max contract. Now 6 years later he’s playing better than ever. I want to know what’s in his stupid **** coffee.

"Nobody works harder than Jimmy"

[msiris]

Butler is just a better player than Mids or Jrue.

[DingleJerry]

Yea I have to take the L on Jimmy too. Still not the type of human I'd want around, but basketballwise he's proven me wrong. He's defied the Thibs minutes piling on and in hindsight there's a good chance if at some point like 4 years ago we swapped him for Mids we'd have more than 1 title.

[msiris]

Yea I have to take the L on Jimmy too. Still not the type of human I'd want around, but basketballwise he's proven me wrong. He's defied the Thibs minutes piling on and in hindsight there's a good chance if at some point like 4 years ago we swapped him for Mids we'd have more than 1 title.

I wonder if giannis nicked that trade? If so then he should leave his personal feelings out of things if he wants more chips.

[DingleJerry]

Also, another hindsight thing is that they should have found a way to keep Brogdon. It sure looked good the next year when they kept Hill and got people like Wes and others into the same money that would've gone to Brogdon. Generally made sense and you saw the logic, especially if he was unhappy in his role. They were also generally right in their injury fear on him too. So it's not like any of this atrocious stupidity or anything.

But in hindsight they should have found a way to make it work and kept the one younger player in the core. If he was stubborn on his role increasing could've pushed to trade Bledsoe sooner instead of him.

[midranger]

Man, thinking of our draft futility made me (once again) torture myself by looking into it.

I realized “minutes played” is an imperfect but decent surrogate for the overall impact on the league, i.e. better players tend to play more minutes for longer.

(All numbers rounded)

Ray Allen played 46k career minutes.

Among players we drafted and didn’t immediately trade (Dirk) after Ray Allen in 1996, the best careers look like this…

Giannis 23k
Redd 20k
Bogut 20k
Alston 19k
Ersan 19k
Baddy 17k
Sessions 16k
LRMAM 16k
Meeks 12k
Brogdon 12k

That’s 26 years worth of drafts. Those ten players are tops! Rafer Alston was #4!!! Jodie Meeks made the top ten!!! WTF???

[ABucksFan]

If we didn't hit gold on Giannis...our draft history is probably one of the worse in the league. We have been piss fn poor

[RubberSoul]

RGM would have had a substantially better draft record just taking majority opinion via poll. You couldn’t do worse if you tried.


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[emunney]

Man, thinking of our draft futility made me (once again) torture myself by looking into it.

I realized “minutes played” is an imperfect but decent surrogate for the overall impact on the league, i.e. better players tend to play more minutes for longer.

(All numbers rounded)

Ray Allen played 46k career minutes.

Among players we drafted and didn’t immediately trade (Dirk) after Ray Allen in 1996, the best careers look like this…

Giannis 23k
Redd 20k
Bogut 20k
Alston 19k
Ersan 19k
Baddy 17k
Sessions 16k
LRMAM 16k
Meeks 12k
Brogdon 12k

That’s 26 years worth of drafts. Those ten players are tops! Rafer Alston was #4!!! Jodie Meeks made the top ten!!! WTF???

I think this is not counting players we didn't technically draft but arranged the trade during the draft, like Tobes (26k). There's no way to slice it that doesn't stink though.

[midranger]

Man, thinking of our draft futility made me (once again) torture myself by looking into it.

I realized “minutes played” is an imperfect but decent surrogate for the overall impact on the league, i.e. better players tend to play more minutes for longer.

(All numbers rounded)

Ray Allen played 46k career minutes.

Among players we drafted and didn’t immediately trade (Dirk) after Ray Allen in 1996, the best careers look like this…

Giannis 23k
Redd 20k
Bogut 20k
Alston 19k
Ersan 19k
Baddy 17k
Sessions 16k
LRMAM 16k
Meeks 12k
Brogdon 12k

That’s 26 years worth of drafts. Those ten players are tops! Rafer Alston was #4!!! Jodie Meeks made the top ten!!! WTF???

I think this is not counting players we didn't technically draft but arranged the trade during the draft, like Tobes (26k). There's no way to slice it that doesn't stink though.

Forgot about Tobes. Yup, he’d be #1. And we traded him for 2 month of magic beans.

[DingleJerry]

And when you factor in that the team has generally sucked before the last 5 years so the picks were usually top 10