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Hal14 wrote:Updated list of guys who have done a pre-draft workout for the Celtics:
Landers Nolley
Oscar Tshiebwe
Justin Powell
Isaiah Miranda (workout scheduled for 5/22)
Jordan Walsh
Vincent Valerio-Bodon (workout scheduled for the week of 5/22)
Dillon Jones
Andre Jackson Jr (has worked out for Pacers, Celtics, Nets)
Kalela wrote:Hal14 wrote:Updated list of guys who have done a pre-draft workout for the Celtics:
Landers Nolley
Oscar Tshiebwe
Justin Powell
Isaiah Miranda (workout scheduled for 5/22)
Jordan Walsh
Vincent Valerio-Bodon (workout scheduled for the week of 5/22)
Dillon Jones
Andre Jackson Jr (has worked out for Pacers, Celtics, Nets)
The Celtics can use a high-IQ player like Andre Jackson despite his lack of offense.
Hal14 wrote:bucknersrevenge wrote:Hal14 wrote:
Jesus - look how fast the release is on those 2 jumpers in the clip on the bottom right.
If he hits, he's like a Kukoc/Turkoglo/Bojan Bogdanovic type of guy.
Interesting...
Yes, Valerio-Bodon is interesting for sure. A guy who's 6'9" who can move like he moves and can handle the ball, take it to the rack and shoot it like he can is certainly intriguing.
On the flip side, his stats are decent but not great. And I watched a little bit of actual game film and he looked decent but not great. Was hoping the stats and/or game film would be better, especially for a guy who is an older prospect (just turned 22).
Because of that, he would probably be a reach at pick 35.
But if he goes undrafted, I would definitely try to get him on our summer league team and give him a shot at earning a training camp invite.
There's some real potential here - just not sure i'd risk it taking him at pick 35.
playa_lev wrote:Hal14 wrote:bucknersrevenge wrote:
Interesting...
Yes, Valerio-Bodon is interesting for sure. A guy who's 6'9" who can move like he moves and can handle the ball, take it to the rack and shoot it like he can is certainly intriguing.
On the flip side, his stats are decent but not great. And I watched a little bit of actual game film and he looked decent but not great. Was hoping the stats and/or game film would be better, especially for a guy who is an older prospect (just turned 22).
Because of that, he would probably be a reach at pick 35.
But if he goes undrafted, I would definitely try to get him on our summer league team and give him a shot at earning a training camp invite.
There's some real potential here - just not sure i'd risk it taking him at pick 35.
When you evaluate European prospects you really need to understand European basketball and also the local player role on a team.
As a local player in a playoff contender team with 5 imports around him his role and touches were very limited.
First of all the coach who signed 5 imports and trust them, builds around his imports.
Secondly those imports (all of them Americans) will have to put up numbers in order to get a good job next season so of course they will play a little bit for themselfs.
Valerio-Bodon shoot FG: 64%; 3pt: 42%; FT: 88% and in 25 minutes he averaged little over 8ppg. Not because he didn't shoot well. Actually he was super efficient. At the end of regular season he was shooting FG: 70%; 3pt: 49%; FT. 92%. He had one of the lowest if not the lowest usage rate in the team.
When you evaluate him as an older prospect, you also have to think about the fact that he is a 4 year pro. 4 seasons playing against grown man who make out a living of basketball and feed their families based on their production on court. He didn't play against kids of his age or even younger in a college enviorment.
Hal14 wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think Trayce Jackson-Davis might be the guy.
Scouting report vid:
His only weaknesses covered in the vid are: lack of outside shooting, gets overpowered in low post by really big/strong bigs, and struggles to go right so can get in trouble when he tries to drive and teams force him right.
Fair concerns, but all things I'm not too worried about. First off, this isn't 1994 anymore. The NBA game is no longer built around throwing the ball into the low post to 7-foot, 260 lbs guys every time down the floor. He struggles defending huge centers in the low post - well guess what, very rarely in today's game do we see huge centers posting up.
As for the lack of a right hand when driving. Again, not too worried about that. It would be a much different story if we were talking about a guard or wing who struggled with their off hand. But TJD is gonna be a low usage big man. While his ability to face up and attack off the dribble in the half court is a nice weapon to have in his arsenal, it's not like an NBA team will be relying on that as a major part of their offense. It was more of an issue in college, because Indiana's entire offense (hell, their entire team) was built around him and ran through him. But he'll have a lower usage role in the NBA. Plus, he seems like a very hard worker who can improve with driving/finishing with his right hand.
As for the shooting. I'm optimistic he can develop his shooting. Obviously, there's no one defending him in this video (so obviously the shots are easier to make) but he makes a ton of 3's here and the form looks really smooth. Slow-ish release but bigs typically have more time to get their shot off, defenses usually sag off them more than guards/wings.
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While I'm optimistic that he can maybe develop into a decent shooter, it's certainly no guarantee and it could take quite some time for him to get there. Question is, do you take a guy in the top 35 who's a non-shooting, undersized big man? Especially considering he's an older prospect (23 yrs old).
I think you do. Putting aside the age concern, let's just think about some good bigs in the NBA today who are kind of undersized (6'10" or under) and non-shooters. Who can we think of?
-Bam Adebayo
-Time Lord
-Mason Plumlee
-Clint Capela
-Kevon Looney
-Dwight Powell
These are some really good players. Even if TJD ends up on the lower end of the spectrum and is a Looney/Powell type of guy, these are both guys who have been very solid role players. They both have a role and have filled it very well - as a result, they've both been with their team basically forever now haha. Powell started all 18 playoff games and he started 71 reg season games last year when DAL made the WCF. He's been there forever and has been a solid big for them. Looney has developed into one of the best role players in the league. He's been a key piece for multiple championship teams.
Probably unrealistic for TJD to end up being as good as Bam. Afterall, Bam was starting for an NBA finals team at age 22. TJD isn't even getting drafted till he's 23. However, there's actually a lot of similarities between TJD and Bam. The way TJ can handle the ball really well for a big, can face up and attack off the dribble, both very good passers (TJD with a 24% assist rate is VERY good for a big). Both strong finishers around the basket, both good athleticism, good lob threats. TJD is 6'9", 240 lbs. Bam is 6'9", 255 (measured 242 lbs at the combine before he was drafted).
Bam was better at a younger age, more switchable on the perimeter and had developed a good mid range jumper. Which is why he's obviously better than TJD. But if we can get a guy at pick 35 who can develop into a similar type of player (or at worst he's closer to a Looney/Powell type of guy) that could be a hell of a pick.
TJD is somewhat similar to Rob, too. Both about the same size, both non-shooting bigs who are very good passers, good rebounders, good rim protectors. Good athleticism, good lob threat. Rob is the better athlete and has 5 more inches of wingspan (also got into the league younger too which helps) but TJD is much less injury prone (played 4 yrs of college basketball in a tough physical Big 10 conference, played heavy mins and pretty much never got hurt) and is much better than Rob in terms of a face up game, taking his man off the dribble and being able to handle the ball in the open floor.
Kind of similar to Capela as well. TJD is a better passer than Capela, more of a face up / off the dribble game than Capela. But Capela is a little bigger, longer wingspan and also came into the league at a younger age.
At this point, I would take TJD over Clowney, I'd take TJD over Miranda, over Nnaji and over Bona too. I just think that those other bigs have more glaring weaknesses.
Miranda is a risky pick - the case against him is pretty simple. He's only played against HS/AAU competition. Sure, there's been many guys (Shaedon Sharpe in 2022 draft and in prior years guys like Kobe, LeBron, KG, T-Mac, etc.) who went from HS to the pros who worked out great. But pretty much all of the HS to the pros guys (and all the ones who worked out well) were 5 star recruits and were the #1 ranked player in the country coming out of HS (or very close to #1). Miranda meanwhile was a 4 star recruit, with an average ranking of 43 among the 4 scouting services. If you're a 4 star recruit who was ranked 43 coming out of HS, you don't go HS to the pros. You need to prove yourself in college for at least a year. He has not done that yet. That is the case for not taking Miranda. Not to mention, his defensive intensity and overall motor has been a little shaky in some of the film I've seen.
Clowney stock is starting to dip a little bit.
The combination of being a high volume 3 pt shooter + low efficiency 3 pt shooter + low assist % guy is a little concerning:
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A few clips are popping up where he gets beat off the dribble due to poor footwork or loses his man defensively:
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Bona and Nnaji are both pretty raw on both ends of the floor. Both really struggle anytime they get the ball away from the basket. Can't dribble, subpar passers. Can't shoot (and show zero potential for shooting improvement) can be foul prone.
TJD had one of the highest standing vertical jumps at the combine, he was impressive in his pro day and he tested well in agility drills. Looks like he's in great shape. And he had lots of games throughout his college career (especially this past season) where he flat out DOMINATED.
I'm just about fully onboard the TJD train, lol. He's now 26 on my personal big board. And it looks like a pretty good chance he'll still be on the board at pick 35.
Here's a mock that was posted 2 days ago, after the combine by a guy who usually has good intel on where players are likely to go and what prospects teams are/aren't interested in.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10076423-stock-up-stock-down-how-the-2023-nba-draft-combine-changed-our-mock-draft
TJD goes 38th in this mock, so he could be there at 35.
Interestingly, they have us picking 33rd (which is incorrect since we have 35th pick) but they have us taking Andre Jackson at 33 (I just posted about him and how he worked out for the Celtics, and some other mocks have us taking Andre Jackson too.
This mock has Olivier-Maxence Prosper going 35th, another guy we've talked about on here quite a bit, who could also be a good fit.
If you're gonna be a non-shooting big in today's NBA, you gotta be a good rim runner who can get up and down the floor, catch lobs. You gotta be able to rebound and you gotta be able to protect the rim. TJD does all of those things well. AND he's a very good passer for a big, is good at facing up and attacking off the bounce, can handle the ball in the open floor, push the pace, lead the break, has good motor and good athleticism. 18% rebounding % and a 9% blocks % are VERY good numbers. He does enough things well, that I'm not as worried about the shooting. And in the video further up on this post (from his pro day at the combine) is evidence of some potential for his shooting.
Lastly, being an older, more polished prospect means he can step in right away and contribute. Al is getting old and Rob is always hurt. IMO, TJD would be able to step right into the rotation and get mins off the bench. And possibly start by year 2. By that time (the 2024-2025 season) Al will REALLY be getting old and who knows how broken down Rob's body will be by then. You take TJD now, get him in there now learning the system and learning from both Rob and Al, going against them in practice so he is ready to contribute sooner rather than later.
playa-hater wrote:Hal, damnit, I appreciate the work you do on Draft Prospects. But every year you like an endless amount of players for us. Yet I never have an idea of who is your top 5ish for us at our spot. It always seems like a tie amongst 20 prospects.
Even if you don't know yet.. I demand a top 5ish sooner than later
165bows wrote:Trade #35 to Charlotte (who's got five picks and plenty of young guys) for #39 and 41. Draft Vukcevic and stash him and then take Bona at #41 and give him a 2-way. Grab another solid UDFA with a two way and stock the pipeline a bit.
Seems like some of the guys I like the most like Jaquez or TJD may be gone by 35.
Hal14 wrote:165bows wrote:Trade #35 to Charlotte (who's got five picks and plenty of young guys) for #39 and 41. Draft Vukcevic and stash him and then take Bona at #41 and give him a 2-way. Grab another solid UDFA with a two way and stock the pipeline a bit.
Seems like some of the guys I like the most like Jaquez or TJD may be gone by 35.
Eh, i don't know.
Not sure I like the idea of drafting both Bona and Vukcevic. Yes, they're obviously different type of players - but at the end of the day, they're both bigs and they're both 20 yrs old. I don't think it makes sense to pick both of them.
Secondly, with the Celtics being a veteran team that is as deep as any team in the league, it's very hard for a 2nd round pick to earn a role on this team. I just don't see Brad making a move to get himself 2 2nd round picks in this draft instead of just 1.
It will be hard enough for which ever guy we draft at 35 to eventually carve out a legit role for himself on this team - let alone drafting 2 guys in the same draft in the 2nd round. I can see maybe doing that if we were a rebuilding team and had lots of minutes to give young guys - but that's not the case - it's the opposite.
I think you just stay at 35, draft the best guy you can, and snag the best guy you can as an UDFA, call it a day and get them both on the summer league roster to get a better idea of what they can do.
Hal14 wrote:Exactly. Defensively TJD is pretty good. 9% blocks rate is VERY good. Shows flashes of defending guards/wings out on the perimeter. I think the first 2 years being able to learn from both Rob and Al can help him a lot, on both ends.
Really love his play making ability. We need some better rhythm/flow to our offense. We need guys who are good at setting each other up, guys who like dishing it to the open teammate just as much (if not more) than scoring it themself. TJD fits that.
His passing ability, paired with his ability to attack the basket off the dribble and finish around the basket, along with being a really good lob threat, means we wouldn't have to rely on 3's so much.
Hal14 wrote:Your guy, Kalela.
7'1" wingspan. Still only 20 yrs old. Like the versatility, too. He projects best at the 4, but could play some small ball 5 and could even play some at the 3. And defensively, can potentially defend 1-5.
I think at this point, I'm taking OMax if he's still there. If not, I'm taking TJD. If they're both gone, well - that means someone else really good probably slipped..
playa-hater wrote:Okay so I took the time to look up Andre Jackson.. Absolutely love everything about him except for the fact he has what looks like a broken jump shot at worst and possibly just an okay shot..
I wanna stick to my formula of either. You're a very good. Shooter? And an o k defender or a very good defender and Pretty good shooter... You cannot be poor in 1 In any of those two categories..
Prosper On the other hand has all the same quality intangibles of Jackson. But he does seemingly have a nice looking stroke and more production to back it up..
I'm intrigued by either prospect for us at thirty five but will definitely take Prosper over Jackson on that one.