1986 Kareem vs 2023 LeBron

[Narigo]

Who was the better player at 38 years old?

[rk2023]

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Granted this is a cross era comparison (not exactly an accurate approach to pit box scores together) and comparing a smaller slate of play to a whole season, but I don’t think 86 Kareem would be able to hit *these* sorts of highs in this age for age comparison.

On the other hand (which impacts my view more so), the injuries and time missed for LeBron has me tipping my hat to vote Kareem in the context of this question.

[70sFan]

Definitely Kareem, I agree that healthy LeBron hit very high peak in the RS, but he wasn't healthy for most of the season - so it doesn't really matter much to me. Kareem was also considerably better in the playoffs.

[RCM88x]

Definitely Kareem, I agree that healthy LeBron hit very high peak in the RS, but he wasn't healthy for most of the season - so it doesn't really matter much to me. Kareem was also considerably better in the playoffs.

I'd actually argue they've been equivalent in the playoffs, why would you say KAJ was considerably better?

[70sFan]

Definitely Kareem, I agree that healthy LeBron hit very high peak in the RS, but he wasn't healthy for most of the season - so it doesn't really matter much to me. Kareem was also considerably better in the playoffs.

I'd actually argue they've been equivalent in the playoffs, why would you say KAJ was considerably better?

If you exclude the first round which wasn't competitive at all, Kareem played like one of the best players in the world. James isn't even close to that level outside of like 2-3 games.

[RCM88x]

Definitely Kareem, I agree that healthy LeBron hit very high peak in the RS, but he wasn't healthy for most of the season - so it doesn't really matter much to me. Kareem was also considerably better in the playoffs.

I'd actually argue they've been equivalent in the playoffs, why would you say KAJ was considerably better?

If you exclude the first round which wasn't competitive at all, Kareem played like one of the best players in the world. James isn't even close to that level outside of like 2-3 games.

I'm not sure, he was pretty much beaten on all fronts by Hakeem in the WCF, I don't see any argument for being the best player in that series or even the best player on his team. That was kind of the series that firmly showed that Magic was gonna be the lead guy on the Lakers wasn't it? Against the Mavericks though? Sure I guess I could see that he was the best player in the series. To me the balance between Magic and KAJ, and then AD and Lebron is pretty similar honestly. Though at that point Magic was clearly on the upswing coming into his peak, while AD is on the opposite end.

[70sFan]

I'd actually argue they've been equivalent in the playoffs, why would you say KAJ was considerably better?

If you exclude the first round which wasn't competitive at all, Kareem played like one of the best players in the world. James isn't even close to that level outside of like 2-3 games.

I'm not sure, he was pretty much beaten on all fronts by Hakeem in the WCF, I don't see any argument for being the best player in that series or even the best player on his team. That was kind of the series that firmly showed that Magic was gonna be the lead guy on the Lakers wasn't it? Against the Mavericks though? Sure I guess I could see that he was the best player in the series. To me the balance between Magic and KAJ, and then AD and Lebron is pretty similar honestly. Though at that point Magic was clearly on the upswing coming into his peak, while AD is on the opposite end.

Kareem wasn't as good as Magic in 1986 playoffs, that's not my argument. James is far worse than Magic as well.

To me, Kareem played like a legit top 5 player in the league in the playoffs. Yeah, Hakeem, Magic and Bird were probably better. Then you may argue for McHale or Jordan, but it's far from given. James isn't even close to top 5 conversations.

[capfan33]

It's Kareem because of health, I think Lebron peaked higher but just too many injuries at this point.

[RCM88x]

If you exclude the first round which wasn't competitive at all, Kareem played like one of the best players in the world. James isn't even close to that level outside of like 2-3 games.

I'm not sure, he was pretty much beaten on all fronts by Hakeem in the WCF, I don't see any argument for being the best player in that series or even the best player on his team. That was kind of the series that firmly showed that Magic was gonna be the lead guy on the Lakers wasn't it? Against the Mavericks though? Sure I guess I could see that he was the best player in the series. To me the balance between Magic and KAJ, and then AD and Lebron is pretty similar honestly. Though at that point Magic was clearly on the upswing coming into his peak, while AD is on the opposite end.

Kareem wasn't as good as Magic in 1986 playoffs, that's not my argument. James is far worse than Magic as well.

To me, Kareem played like a legit top 5 player in the league in the playoffs. Yeah, Hakeem, Magic and Bird were probably better. Then you may argue for McHale or Jordan, but it's far from given. James isn't even close to top 5 conversations.

Is there really no argument for Lebron being a top 5 player in the playoffs either?

Jokic, AD, Booker, Butler... after that I think it's fair game. There are way more players in the league now than in 1986 so strictly comparing based on player rankings is a bit flawed imo.

[70sFan]

Is there really no argument for Lebron being a top 5 player in the playoffs either?

Jokic, AD, Booker, Butler... after that I think it's fair game.

I'd confidently take Brunson, Curry, Tatum and maybe Murray over James. That's without talking about players that lost in the 1st round. James just isn't top tier player this playoffs anymore.

There are way more players in the league now than in 1986 so strictly comparing based on player rankings is a bit flawed imo.

184 players that played in 1986 playoffs vs 216 in 2023. That gives us 85% of players played today. Nothing significant, but I guess you can say top 6 instead of top 5 - it wouldn't change anything.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Yeah, the injury kills bron here

[OhayoKD]

Is there really no argument for Lebron being a top 5 player in the playoffs either?

Jokic, AD, Booker, Butler... after that I think it's fair game.

I'd confidently take Brunson, Curry, Tatum and maybe Murray over James. That's without talking about players that lost in the 1st round. James just isn't top tier player this playoffs anymore.

There are way more players in the league now than in 1986 so strictly comparing based on player rankings is a bit flawed imo.

184 players that played in 1986 playoffs vs 216 in 2023. That gives us 85% of players played today. Nothing significant, but I guess you can say top 6 instead of top 5 - it wouldn't change anything.

Lebron was quite arguably as or more valuable than Steph in the postseason leading a better offense through the first two rounds (with arguably less help if you use larger rs samples for off) to go with maybe the best defensive forward play, after empirically sweeping steph in the rs.

If we're going to throw in the likes of Jalen and Murray could, may as well toss in isiah thomas or ralph sampson ontop of the relatively easy cases present for Magic, Bird, Hakeem,(all obvious), Jordan(obvious with a playoff-only lens), and Barkley.

Definitely Kareem, I agree that healthy LeBron hit very high peak in the RS, but he wasn't healthy for most of the season - so it doesn't really matter much to me. Kareem was also considerably better in the playoffs.

I'd actually argue they've been equivalent in the playoffs, why would you say KAJ was considerably better?

If you exclude the first round which wasn't competitive at all, Kareem played like one of the best players in the world. James isn't even close to that level outside of like 2-3 games.

KAJ did not play like "one of the best players in the world" against Houston. Lebron absolutely did vs the wolves, the grizzlies, and the lakers

[jalengreen]

If the question is just who was the better player, then I'm comfortable taking LeBron here. Kareem certainly had the better season, though.

[ronnymac2]

Definitely a good comparison. Neither one was really a top-5 player in the respective years or quite frankly in the average year in the NBA, but they were still great. KAJ did an admirable job contending with young Akeem and Ralph Sampson, but like LBJ, KAJ had lost his fastball at that point. I will link the 1986 RPOY thread here:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1022520

KAJ did not get much traction but got a ton of (deserved) honor mentions, which I think should happen with LBJ this season as well.

James had the outstanding stretch where he averaged like a 35-point triple-double for a third of the season and basically was doing things only Luka Doncic can do today. He had the 20-20 game in the playoffs, was great vs. champion core GSW, and competed his ass off against arguably the best player on the planet in Nikola Jokic, even defending the stud center for stretches. LBJ had a near 40-point triple-double to try and stave off elimination.

But he couldn't sustain the vaunted rim attack at any point in the playoffs, and his legs being cooked affected his jumper most nights. Similarly, Jabbar struggled to get double-doubles at this point in his career. His weaker rebounding came to the fore vs. HOU. KAJ was still decent at defending the initial attack, but Akeem and his >5 oREBs really hurt LAL.

So for me, it's a pick'em. Credit to both guys for their dedication and discipline.

[MyUniBroDavis]

If the question is just who was the better player, then I'm comfortable taking LeBron here. Kareem certainly had the better season, though.

Yeah this is fair

I think healthy bron this year was honestly top 5 all things considered. He’s gone out and said he was limited now so no more speculating there.

If bron had this level of defense with the level of offense he had in February (don’t wanna hear anybody explain how healthy lebron would struggle to do this btw lol) he’s in conversation for BITW. He was the best player on the court today for sure, and would have been in games 2 and 3 with a great offensive performance as well

[Djoker]

I think Lebron being 38 and his great final game last night mask the level of decline in these playoffs.

Per 75
RS: 29.0 pts, 8.3 reb (1.2 o), 6.8 ast, 0.9 stl, 0.6 blk on 58.3 %TS (+0.2 rTS) with 3.2 tov
PS: 23.3 pts, 9.4 reb (1.5 o), 6.2 ast, 1.0 stl, 1.1 blk on 58.4 %TS (+0.3 rTS) with 2.4 tov

His scoring rate declined almost 6 points per 75 in the playoffs. His defense did go up a notch for sure but his effort was inconsistent on that end and still 23/9/6 per 75 aren't great numbers. Top 10-15 ish type of numbers in the current league environment.

Here are 1986 Kareem's numbers.

Per 75
RS: 24.6 pts, 4.6 reb (1.8 o), 3.8 ast, 0.9 stl, 1.8 blk on 60.3 %TS (+6.2 rTS) with 2.7 tov
PS: 26.7 pts, 6.2 reb (2.0 o), 3.6 ast, 1.1 stl, 1.8 blk on 58.6 %TS (+4.4 rTS) with 3.1 tov

It's kind of close and could go either way. Lebron on one hand missed a ton of games but Kareem played less minutes per game. Kareem has the edge in terms of scoring and defense (interior presence) while Lebron has a huge edge in playmaking.

[rk2023]

Lots of great discourse being had in this thread so far. In spite of both Laker teams falling short in the CF, the compare/contrast and overall addition to greatness both players were able to accrue is really cool to see from the two longevity titans of basketball.

[ShaqAttac]

Lots of great discourse being had in this thread so far. In spite of both Laker teams falling short in the CF, the compare/contrast and overall addition to greatness both players were able to accrue is really cool to see from the two longevity titans of basketball.

longetvity giants? dont they peak "impact" murder any1 not named russ

[rk2023]

Lots of great discourse being had in this thread so far. In spite of both Laker teams falling short in the CF, the compare/contrast and overall addition to greatness both players were able to accrue is really cool to see from the two longevity titans of basketball.

longetvity giants? dont they peak "impact" murder any1 not named russ

Different conversation, my superlative was more in reference to them being the two gold standards for longevity amidst discussion of their performance at age(s) 38.

[thebigbird]

I'm not sure, he was pretty much beaten on all fronts by Hakeem in the WCF, I don't see any argument for being the best player in that series or even the best player on his team. That was kind of the series that firmly showed that Magic was gonna be the lead guy on the Lakers wasn't it? Against the Mavericks though? Sure I guess I could see that he was the best player in the series. To me the balance between Magic and KAJ, and then AD and Lebron is pretty similar honestly. Though at that point Magic was clearly on the upswing coming into his peak, while AD is on the opposite end.

Kareem wasn't as good as Magic in 1986 playoffs, that's not my argument. James is far worse than Magic as well.

To me, Kareem played like a legit top 5 player in the league in the playoffs. Yeah, Hakeem, Magic and Bird were probably better. Then you may argue for McHale or Jordan, but it's far from given. James isn't even close to top 5 conversations.

Is there really no argument for Lebron being a top 5 player in the playoffs either?

Jokic, AD, Booker, Butler... after that I think it's fair game. There are way more players in the league now than in 1986 so strictly comparing based on player rankings is a bit flawed imo.

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