Higher on your all time list: Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas

[mdonnelly1989]

Higher on your all time list: Westbrook, Jason Kidd, Gary Payton, Isiah Thomas

[Lou Fan]

Kidd>Payton>Westbrook>Isiah for me

[eminence]

My first instinct was Kidd>Westbrook>Payton>Thomas

[Colbinii]

My first instinct is to have Kidd a tier higher than Westbrook/Payton/Thomas. Thomas has a very short prime compared to the others, and I don't think his peak matches up to either of Westbrook/Payton.

[MrIrrelevant]

My personal list, I have Kidd > Isiah = Payton > Westbrook

Interesting how win shares ranks them (not saying it means anything, just interesting):
1. Gary Payton* 145.53
2. Jason Kidd* 138.56
3. Russell Westbrook 108.44
4. Isiah Thomas* 80.69

[iggymcfrack]

Westbrook vs. Kidd is tough. Westbrook peaked a lot higher but it was a very short peak and Kidd had incredible longevity as a very good player. Ultimately I think I’d have to take Kidd but they’d be pretty close to each other on my list. Both in the 30s somewhere. I would have both comfortably ahead of Payton who’s IDK… maybe 50 or so? Thomas would be much further behind Payton than Payton is behind the other two.

[Gooner]

My first instinct is to have Kidd a tier higher than Westbrook/Payton/Thomas. Thomas has a very short prime compared to the others, and I don't think his peak matches up to either of Westbrook/Payton.

Thomas is a champion, a leader of one of the most iconic teams in NBA history. What has Westbrook done? Other than collecting those triple doubles. When did he make an impact on winning on the same level as one Isiah Thomas?

[Cavsfansince84]

Kidd to me is a lot like WB in that I think box scores overrate both. I don't think Kidd was that good of an offensive player which is a hard sell when someone is a pg. On one hand he got fairly good team results but on the other he led offenses which were mostly bad throughout his career. So that's my view on Kidd and WB to some degree. I'd be highly tempted to have Payton first out of this group followed by Isiah.

[Jaivl]

Kidd
Westbrook
Thomas
Payton

[Narigo]

Kidd
Westbrook
Isiah
Payton

[Owly]

My first instinct is to have Kidd a tier higher than Westbrook/Payton/Thomas. Thomas has a very short prime compared to the others, and I don't think his peak matches up to either of Westbrook/Payton.

Thomas is a champion, a leader of one of the most iconic teams in NBA history. What has Westbrook done? Other than collecting those triple doubles. When did he make an impact on winning on the same level as one Isiah Thomas?

Loads of players are champions that aren't any good within the context of NBA level play. I don't mind the Bad Boy Pistons but their "iconic" is a combination of branding and being dirty/instigators/flop-inclined/chippy/whiny ... the us against the world thing worked and there's some appeal to it but in terms of legacy to/influence on the game is it Riley-ball? The introduction of the flagrant foul?

If one were to take indirect stuff (and this is more direct than either of the two items stated) his MVP suggests some impact. In terms of more direct impact, given the other poster promotes his peak versus Thomas, Westbrook has (and this is a noisy stat, using raw on-off because it's the same for everyone in terms of there shouldn't be too many version or variation) three straight seasons where his team are between 12 and 13 points better with him on the court. Now this is situational. One of those years sees him starting alongside another superstar etc ...

Thomas like all earlier players has greater uncertainty of impact as interpreted by impact metrics and Westbrook has very legitimate criticisms. That said, at his apex, it's hard to say Westbrook is lacking evidence of high level impact on winning that Thomas possesses.

[SilentA]

My first instinct is to have Kidd a tier higher than Westbrook/Payton/Thomas. Thomas has a very short prime compared to the others, and I don't think his peak matches up to either of Westbrook/Payton.

Thomas is a champion, a leader of one of the most iconic teams in NBA history. What has Westbrook done? Other than collecting those triple doubles. When did he make an impact on winning on the same level as one Isiah Thomas?

Loads of players are champions that aren't any good within the context of NBA level play. I don't mind the Bad Boy Pistons but their "iconic" is a combination of branding and being dirty/instigators/flop-inclined/chippy/whiny ... the us against the world thing worked and there's some appeal to it but in terms of legacy to/influence on the game is it Riley-ball? The introduction of the flagrant foul?

If one were to take indirect stuff (and this is more direct than either of the two items stated) his MVP suggests some impact. In terms of more direct impact, given the other poster promotes his peak versus Thomas, Westbrook has (and this is a noisy stat, using raw on-off because it's the same for everyone in terms of there shouldn't be too many version or variation) three straight seasons where his team are between 12 and 13 points better with him on the court. Now this is situational. One of those years sees him starting alongside another superstar etc ...

Thomas like all earlier players has greater uncertainty of impact as interpreted by impact metrics and Westbrook has very legitimate criticisms. That said, at his apex, it's hard to say Westbrook is lacking evidence of high level impact on winning that Thomas possesses.

Bird Celtics vs Magic Lakers and then transitioning into the Jordan Bulls is one of the most iconic NBA eras of all time, where it really blew up (80s to early 90s). A lot of players thank these players and teams for the league's success. And integral to all of those storylines, adding new layers of drama to each of them are the Bad Boys Pistons from Detroit led by Isiah (compared to the bigger markets of Chicago, Boston, LA). Sure, those 3 teams were the main reasons, but just behind them in cultural importance are the Dr J 76ers as predecessors and Bad Boys Pistons as underdog antagonists as the easy #4a and #4b depending how you look at it.

There's a reason the Isiah + Magic reconciliation video is so famous and why so many people still talk about them. Or even Jordan couldn't get them out of his head in the last dance. They didn't just bring fouls, they brought drama and real, genuine competition (with some results to back it) that certain groups of people often whine about the game missing today. Admittedly the flagrant fouling/toughness thing is a part of it, but Isiah/Dumars are rightly considered among the best all-time backcourt duos behind Steph/Klay. Otherwise, Isiah's handles, Laimbeer as one of the first successful shooting bigs (they ran a lot of pick and pop)... being one of the first champions to win off defense, teamplay and depth over star power...

Not saying anyone is wrong for preferring Westbrook or finding the Bad Boys Pistons overrated. I always say the accolades/legacy people overrate Isiah and the stat nerds underrate him, making him a uniquely divisive but very interesting player. But I think there's a bit too much downplaying of the Pistons in that post there.

[Owly]

Kidd to me is a lot like WB in that I think box scores overrate both. I don't think Kidd was that good of an offensive player which is a hard sell when someone is a pg. On one hand he got fairly good team results but on the other he led offenses which were mostly bad throughout his career. So that's my view on Kidd and WB to some degree. I'd be highly tempted to have Payton first out of this group followed by Isiah.

Offense inclined numbers don't rate Kidd that highly.

He's got two seasons where his PER is better than Eric Murdock's best, two seasons with more OWS than Murdock's best (and a third that's tied though first glance both that and one of those above would likely fall behind in terms of OWS/48) and two seasons with a better OBPM (again a third is tied). It really doesn't seem box-metrics are that bullish on him.

Unless there's someone still using triple doubles and also considering it a measure of offense I'm not sure that measures that are majority box oriented are outpacing impact on the offensive end. Indeed both 97-14 and 97-22 RAPM in addition to (near) raw on-off seem to suggest an impactful offensive player (with through 14 version, at first glance, comparatively the more conservative on his O, the '22 version more bullish).

[Cavsfansince84]

Thomas like all earlier players has greater uncertainty of impact as interpreted by impact metrics and Westbrook has very legitimate criticisms. That said, at his apex, it's hard to say Westbrook is lacking evidence of high level impact on winning that Thomas possesses.

I think there's some evidence which exists. Namely the following:
1. WB playing with a guy who finished top 2 in mvp voting 4 times and was a 4x scoring champ on terrific efficiency during his years with the best on/off and when his teams did the best.
2. Isiah otoh didn't really play with anyone that I think was considered a top 15 or maybe even 20 player during his prime. Yet those teams did what they did. Granted they had depth and a great coach+ defense but at the end of the day they came very close to a 3 peat with Isiah seen as their best player and beat some very good teams. That to me speaks on some level of Isiah having greater impact on winning.
3. What we've seen of WB as lead dog since 2016. In short, I don't think he's a guy you can build a contender around or that you even want to try to. Isiah was built around successfully and understood when he needed to give up some stats for the good of the team both in terms of pace and allowing other players to have a bigger role. So we can call this doing what it takes to win or even bbiq but I think Isiah trumps WB here. I'd also say Isiah was better defensively than some give him credit for. He and Dumars could cause a lot of trouble for teams with their traps.

[wojoaderge]

According to my NBA 72 list they're all within 8 spaces of each other, in the late 30s-mid 40s

Isiah
Kidd
Glove
WB

[SilentA]

My answer is slight edge to Isiah > Kidd > Payton > Westbrook if including accolades, legacy, and to a very small extent intangibles (based on very limited info) with impact.

If trying to look more purely at impact, swap Isiah and Kidd. Payton/Westbrook becomes too hard for me to call. Isiah and Kidd direct court impact can be comparable in some respects of course, but Kidd's significant longevity edge prevails pretty handily.

[HeartBreakKid]

My answer is slight edge to Isiah > Kidd > Payton > Westbrook if including accolades, legacy, and to a very small extent intangibles (based on very limited info) with impact.

If trying to look more purely at impact, swap Isiah and Kidd. Payton/Westbrook becomes too hard for me to call. Isiah and Kidd direct court impact can be comparable in some respects of course, but Kidd's significant longevity edge prevails pretty handily.

With accolades isn't this pretty easily Westbrook? MVP is pretty much the best accolade. He's also been to the finals and was a top player on WCF teams.

[Medbrat]

Kidd deserves a lot of credit for ignoring carlisle and forcefeeding Dirk in those 4th quarters. The dude had one of the highest bbiq in general.

[JJ_PR]

Isiah
Kidd
Payton
Westbrook

Isiah is just flat out the better player & led one of the most memorable teams to two titles. Jason Kidd has one ring which he got towards the end of his career. Gary Payton was a good role player. Finally, Westbrook always cared more about his stats than winning. That's why he doesn't have a ring.

[SilentA]

My answer is slight edge to Isiah > Kidd > Payton > Westbrook if including accolades, legacy, and to a very small extent intangibles (based on very limited info) with impact.

If trying to look more purely at impact, swap Isiah and Kidd. Payton/Westbrook becomes too hard for me to call. Isiah and Kidd direct court impact can be comparable in some respects of course, but Kidd's significant longevity edge prevails pretty handily.

With accolades isn't this pretty easily Westbrook? MVP is pretty much the best accolade. He's also been to the finals and was a top player on WCF teams.

I can definitely see the argument yeah, but to me Payton has the case for better teammate with how he adjusted in later teams to succeed at an old age (Heat) while Westbrook had a disastrous Lakers run (whether or not we listen to player anecdotes about GP's mentorship, like Shaq saying Payton pulled him aside to let Wade take the lead). Payton being the first ever DPOY point guard to me is also significant, even if I've seen the case for him being an overrated defender, and of course accolades include championship where he did play a part.

MVP beats first ever PG DOPY standalone in isolation of course, but not by a ton and Payton's reputation plus championship gives him the overall legacy edge to me. Might be semantics with how we define "legacy and accolades", since legacy is a broad term (as opposed to strictly accolades).

I don't tend to argue hard about this area because it gets into a lot of subjective area (the only time I've argued hard here was about something more tangible re:Isiah). But fantasy basketball stuff, especially with personal lists, ultimately boils down to "if I ran an all time org myself, what would I do?" for me in which case I can't ignore these subjective factors.