Where would you put prime jokic in a ranking of best offensive players ever?

[trex_8063]

I agree with the consensus [outside of one nay-sayer] itt: he's easily top 10, probably top five (I can think of only 5 [maybe 6-7 at most] players who have a reasonable case for as good [or better]), and one of only about a half-dozen players with a reasonable case as offensive GOAT, imo.

[ty 4191]

I agree with the consensus [outside of one nay-sayer] itt: he's easily top 10, probably top five (I can think of only 5 [maybe 6-7 at most] players who have a reasonable case for as good [or better]), and one of only about a half-dozen players with a reasonable case as offensive GOAT, imo.

Which half dozen or so had a better 3 year peak than Jokic offensively?

[ShotCreator]

Jokic's raw passing is as good as it gets but his actual scoring game doesn't lend itself to the level of playmaking and shot creation of Magic or Nash. So the assist totals kind of overrate him a bit IMO.

I'm confident Nash had more valuable passes on average. And so did Magic, and then Curry's gravity lent itself to even deadlier teammate opportunities, in much higher volume than Nikola.

Out of anybody in these conversations, his scoring game is possibly most resilient ever or close. Only Jordan or LeBron give me pause in comparison, but his best trait offensively IMO is he dribbles the least out of anybody known as a good playmaker ever by far.

He actually has mostly an off-ball game. His time of possession out there is ludicrous for what numbers he puts up, which makes him possibly most portable. Curry level portable or better.

So he has his strengths and weaknesses compared to other offensive GOAT's. Realistically I'd probably take him over every non-guard ever offensively for a prime stretch.

Curry's resiliency gives me pause but he has really a higher ceiling of offense IMO than Jokic.

Nash and Magic give me pause in general. Nash had a hybrid of Curry's gravity very high up on screens and in general the respect he demanded off the dribble and Magic's ability to devastate small mistakes with interior passing. I think he gets forgotten about far to easily due to his lower scoring volume.

I'd still say Magic or Nash are overall offensive GOAT's in prime. Just consistent in 4/5 year stretches RS/PS.

Curry having possibly the highest peak in his little stretch from 16 to 17 but his resilience bugs me. Jokic could be 3rd behind Magic and Nash assuming he does this next year. His 4 year prime stretch of 21 to 24 would be GOAT-ish. Jordan or Curry on his tail.


LeBron, Oscar, West, Bird, Paul, Shaq, etc after that.


Luka is gonna be in these conversations very soon IMO.

[ty 4191]

I agree with the consensus [outside of one nay-sayer] itt: he's easily top 10, probably top five (I can think of only 5 [maybe 6-7 at most] players who have a reasonable case for as good [or better]), and one of only about a half-dozen players with a reasonable case as offensive GOAT, imo.

Who are the 5-7 players who had a better 3 year offensive prime than Jokic?

[trex_8063]

I agree with the consensus [outside of one nay-sayer] itt: he's easily top 10, probably top five (I can think of only 5 [maybe 6-7 at most] players who have a reasonable case for as good [or better]), and one of only about a half-dozen players with a reasonable case as offensive GOAT, imo.

Who are the 5-7 players who had a better 3 year offensive prime than Jokic?

If you'll read the post you've quote more closely, you'll see I did not say I think there are 5-7 players who are better offensively than Jokic [was "3-year prime" ever specified? anyway....].

I said I could think of about 5 players [maybe 1 or 2 more] who have a reasonable case for as good [or better]........a "reasonable case" does not necessarily mean it's correct (and it's certainly not a sure thing); and "as good" does not = "better".
I further said Jokic has a "reasonable" case as offensive GOAT (which would imply: hey......maybe no one is better than he is).

If any of those potentials (with cases for "as good") is actually better, it's not by a relevant margin, imo. All of the top 4-5 all-time offensive talents are so close, it's sort of splitting hairs [again: imo]. I'm starting to lean toward Jokic as the offensive GOAT, though it's certainly not a position I'd feel comfortable stating with absolutist language/tone; so I'm leaving the door open for others.

The guys I think have a reasonable case for "as good" (again: if they're any better, it's not by a relevant margin) are Magic, LeBron, Jordan, Curry.........maybe Oscar (he's so hard to assess due to era, and we lack turnover data, etc......but he's was astoundingly big-time on offense in his day). Nash was the other guy I was putting a "maybe" on (though I'm skeptical/doubtful of that, personally).
I can't remember who else I was maybe thinking of at the time to suggest 7. I don't know if maybe I was just patronizing Larry Bird fans in thinking he maybe had a dark-horse case.......personally, I think Jokic is definitively better [much more efficient scoring on only slightly less volume, scoring is more playoff resilient, turnover economy is better].

So I guess it's only about 6 guys with a "maybe", but at least 1 or 2 of them have the emphasis [and doubtful tone] placed on the "maybe".

[ty 4191]

If you'll read the post you've quote more closely, you'll see I did not say I think there are 5-7 players who are better offensively than Jokic [was "3-year prime" ever specified? anyway....].

I'm specifying it.

Which players had a better 3 year offensive prime than Jokic?

[ardee]

Top 5ish with LeBron, Nash, Jordan and Magic. I think he's better than both Curry and Bird, it's clear that his scoring is more resilient in the Playoffs than either of theirs.

[Lou Fan]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

[Ambrose]

He's in my top tier of 6 guys.

Magic/LeBron/MJ/Nash/Curry/Jokic in some order.

[Colbinii]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

West, No.

Oscar, Yes.

Oscar had extremely impressive Offensive Ratings in a league dominated by big men. He has has great WOWY scores.

West is clearly behind him by the same metrics and I dont think any other metrics would support West being a GOAT tier offensive player. Closer to Kobe-level.

[spree8]

He's in my top tier of 6 guys.

Magic/LeBron/MJ/Nash/Curry/Jokic in some order.

I’d throw Bird in there too

[Lou Fan]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

West, No.

Oscar, Yes.

Oscar had extremely impressive Offensive Ratings in a league dominated by big men. He has has great WOWY scores.

West is clearly behind him by the same metrics and I dont think any other metrics would support West being a GOAT tier offensive player. Closer to Kobe-level.

Why not West? Not arguing seeking to learn here.

[Ambrose]

He's in my top tier of 6 guys.

Magic/LeBron/MJ/Nash/Curry/Jokic in some order.

I’d throw Bird in there too

He and Oscar are probably next up but I prefer my top 6.

[eminence]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

I'm an Oscar guy - crazy high offensive load/volume, quite possibly the highest in NBA history. Efficient as well. Worked at the team level, he led good to great offenses year after year.

1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 1st, 10th, 1st, 2nd, 5th, 1st were his offenses ranks by year, last 4 years in Milwaukee, first 10 in Cincinnati.

'61/'64/'68/'69 he led the league in both APG and TSA (decent proxies for playmaking and scoring). As far as I'm aware Nash is the only other guy to do it - in '06. I do personally believe he was both the best scorer and playmaker of the 60s.

Stylistically - I have Kawhi as the most similar scorer in the modern NBA. Not a lot of flash, but strong as can be and will get to his spots and hit whether you like it or not. Extremely underrated shooter. As a playmaker a bit more on the conservative side than some of the other elite passers, CP3 is the classic comp, and I can kinda see it, but he plays a bit more of the pivot role.

[Colbinii]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

West, No.

Oscar, Yes.

Oscar had extremely impressive Offensive Ratings in a league dominated by big men. He has has great WOWY scores.

West is clearly behind him by the same metrics and I dont think any other metrics would support West being a GOAT tier offensive player. Closer to Kobe-level.

Why not West? Not arguing seeking to learn here.

The best impact [not end all be all] data we have from the 1960s and 1970s is WOWY data. Oscar rates out well [Nash/LeBron level] while West looks closer to Pierce [Pierce looks great in WOWY, fyi]. But, when looking further, Oscar's teams were consistently 1-2 for a majority of his career in Ortg.

[rk2023]

I'm curious if any experts on the 60s/70s could make the case for West/Oscar for being in this category. Jokic is definitely an offensive GOAT contender imo. Glad he's finally getting mainstream respect. I hope he wins the chip. We're looking at a guy with top ten trajectory with a first title at the same age as Bron and MJ with less help than both. He also seems like an amazing locker room guy and a good leader who's establishing a winning culture in a traditionally poor franchise. Just so much to love about this guy.

Bens’ BackPicks profiles from 2018 regarding Oscar and West’s careers are pieces I’ve found as great reads, and think they sum up both’s offensive impact very well.

Oscar:
https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/21/backpicks-goat-12-oscar-robertson/

West:
https://thinkingbasketball.net/2017/12/18/backpicks-goat-17-jerry-west/

[MyUniBroDavis]

In terms of in era impact he’s top tier, would probably have him top 5

Absolute ability, probably only have jordan and bron above for sure. I think if he continues this he makes sense over Curry, I see the argument though

[ardee]

He's in my top tier of 6 guys.

Magic/LeBron/MJ/Nash/Curry/Jokic in some order.

I’d throw Bird in there too

Personally I think he's better than both Curry and Bird, who are one tier down from the other guys listed. Their games simply are not as Playoff resilient.