**The Official Karl-Anthony Towns Thread: Part Two**

[TimberKat]

On the CBA angle, are you guys sure that there is no grand father clauses? Twolves made player movements according to existing rule and planned ahead accordingly. Maybe something like it's allow acception until Gobert or Towns contract runs out?

[wolves_89]

I'm fairly confident that if KAT is healthy next season he will be in the running for an All-NBA spot. Since his rookie season he's been All-NBA or just missed making it every year he's been healthy. If KAT can stay on the court next year, I have little doubt he will have a massive impact on the team's success. I'm hopeful that by the end of next season the idea of trading KAT will seem ridiculous.

He's made 3rd team two out of eight seasons.

Still a VERY big accomplishment, but not quite the "every year" narrative.

Towns has been third or fourth in the All-NBA voting every season he didn't miss a significant number of games (not including his rookie season).

[Domejandro]

On the CBA angle, are you guys sure that there is no grand father clauses? Twolves made player movements according to existing rule and planned ahead accordingly. Maybe something like it's allow acception until Gobert or Towns contract runs out?

What would there be a grandfather clause for specifically? There is nothing to grandfather in, the contract are the contracts.

To answer the question, absolutely not. The CBA was agreed to by all of teams and the NBPA; it is perfectly fair.

[shrink]

Brought this over from the trade thread...

I am not on the "Towns must go" ship -- even I recognize his value. However, I just don't see, at this point, how it will increase much more than it already is. One, with Edwards' emergence, he's no longer the first option on offense. Two, he'll continue playing next to Gobert. As such, his numbers will never reach what they did prior to the trade. And finally, his salary will only look worse ($36M in 2023-24 to $$49M in 2024-25).

If Towns can retain his efficiency on a lower volume and team success comes with it, his value absolutely can improve. Lower volume can also allow Towns to focus more of his energy on defense. KAT's most efficient scoring season of his career came in 2017-18 (the Butler season). It was his second-lowest shooting volume of his career (14.3 FGApg), almost four shots less than the season below.

I think minds are mostly made up about Towns, and I think that's kinda what you are referring to here. However, his "issues" (whining, fouls, lack of winning) are largely correctable. The question next year will become whether what he provides will be worth the money he makes. That's why improving in those areas is important for him.

I also think a season of relative health will be important for his narrative. His fall from being an iron-man pre-COVID to missing a large chunk of time in three of the last four seasons is just as big of an effect on his narrative as his on-court production has been.

Are they?

I want to believe they are, however, we, as a collective, have been bringing up "these" same issues for several years now. As some point, he is who he is, Klomp.

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

[Baseline81]

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

A few things here.

You pointed to Towns being voted All-NBA prior to this past season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the "go-to" guy on the team. That's now changed to Edwards. Sure, there will be nights where KAT showcases himself, but it won't be as often as it used to be. His numbers will not reach what they previously were. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that.

Another thing, this one in regards to winning. I don't believe when posters bring this up they are speaking of the regular season. It seems to be more about how he hasn't necessarily shown up in the playoffs.

Finally, I see you didn't mention his fouling...

[shrink]

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

A few things here.

You pointed to Towns being voted All-NBA prior to this past season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the "go-to" guy on the team. That's now changed to Edwards. Sure, there will be nights where KAT showcases himself, but it won't be as often as it used to be. His numbers will not reach what they previously were. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that.

Another thing, this one in regards to winning. I don't believe when posters bring this up they are speaking of the regular season. It seems to be more about how he hasn't necessarily shown up in the playoffs.

Finally, I see you didn't mention his fouling...

Funny, I didn’t see you mention Points, Rebounds, FG%, 3P%, EFF, TS%, ad infinitum. Towns critics often ignore the good stuff, focusing solely on the bad.

Case in point, you said, “hasn’t necessarily shown up in the playoffs.” Towns has averaged 11.4 RB and 18.6 PPG in 16 playoff games. That’s showing up. Yes, he’s had too many turnovers, and hasn’t shot as well as he normally does during the season. He’s a mixed bag, but you can’t say he hasn’t shown up.

Finally, Towns’ very best season was the Butler year, when he was THIRD in FGA’s. I think he will be fine if Ant is the go to guy - most likely better than when he was the #1 option.

[frankenwolf]

The hope and positivity that “value” can go up IF a b and c go such a way is all good. Let’s stick to actual facts please not hope and wishes. Also, let’s stop ignoring the new CBA. Tim can’t come in and just trade away the franchise cornerstone in his first year, but with Ant taking that spot and Karl’s fit and other issues, that may be what’s going to happen in year 2. Of course they are going to sell the picture of keeping the core and not trading X and Y players. That’s would definitely trash any players trade value. But…
Here’s the KAT facts…

Foul issues - fact
Health issues -fact
Salary issues - fact
Fit issues - fact
Basketball iq issues - fact
Mental Toughness issues - fact

Can they be corrected - maybe
All of them in one season - not likely

The new CBA and these facts make it much more likely that the best move is to move on.
It’s not hating, it’s just being realistic. Sorry for not being an idealistic nirvana positivity man.

How do you know KAT isn't going to fit? Because his health did not enable him to play but 7 games with this years probable starting 5. So fit is not a fact, it is a hypothesis

Salary is not really a KAT issue as much as a Timberwolves issue, so we can't blame him for that.

Health issues: first and foremost, the calf injury that kept him out of 50+ games this year. He came back for the stretch run when he could have sat out the rest of the year and been 100% for next season. If you watched the games, you know he wasn't even 90%
of what he is. In 20-21, he contracted COVID (like 75% of the country) and was out for 13 games. In 19-20, he missed some games due to suspension (for hitting Joel the troll), a car wreck that he was lucky he lived through. So, he's "injury prone" now?

Foul issues - sure, but that is improving. Of course, it would be better if the refs treated KAT like Embiid.

BBIQ - that's debatable to me. I could say the same about Ant, but he is also getting better. Also, and this is strictly conjecture on my part, maybe some of that's not having familiarity with his teammates.

Mental toughness - I'm sure you are talking about his game mentality and not his over-all mental toughness. Yes, he whines, but as noted elsewhere, that is also getting better.

I understand that the Timberwolves will have a cap crunch coming up, but, as far as I am concerned, trading KAT now sets this franchise back 2 years, so we'd be burning 2 years of Gobert, Ant & Jaden in the hopes of getting someone who is not the player that KAT is now.

I understand not being a nirvana positivity person,, especially with the history of this club.

[TimberKat]

On the CBA angle, are you guys sure that there is no grand father clauses? Twolves made player movements according to existing rule and planned ahead accordingly. Maybe something like it's allow acception until Gobert or Towns contract runs out?

What would there be a grandfather clause for specifically? There is nothing to grandfather in, the contract are the contracts.

To answer the question, absolutely not. The CBA was agreed to by all of teams and the NBPA; it is perfectly fair.

I was thinking something along the lines of like KG's contract was over the max. Maybe give them 1 or 2 extra years to sort out the "hard" cap but paid taxes under current system?

[Baseline81]

Funny, I didn’t see you mention Points, Rebounds, FG%, 3P%, EFF, TS%, ad infinitum. Towns critics often ignore the good stuff, focusing solely on the bad.

Case in point, you said, “hasn’t necessarily shown up in the playoffs.” Towns has averaged 11.4 RB and 18.6 PPG in 16 playoff games. That’s showing up. Yes, he’s had too many turnovers, and hasn’t shot as well as he normally does during the season. He’s a mixed bag, but you can’t say he hasn’t shown up.

Finally, Towns’ very best season was the Butler year, when he was THIRD in FGA’s. I think he will be fine if Ant is the go to guy - most likely better than when he was the #1 option.

Actually, in another post, I did mention points and rebounds. Points because he'll take less shots (16.4 FG in 2021-22 vs. 14.8 FG in 2022-23) but more from the perimeter (4.9 3PT in 2021-22 vs. 5.7 3PT in 2022-23) resulting in less free throws (6.3 FT in 2021-22 vs. 4.7 FT in 2022-23). Edwards will lead the team in shots. Rebounds because he's playing PF next to Gobert (9.8 REB in 2021-22 vs. 8.1 REB in 2022-23). Based on this, I'm not sure why you think they would improve.

And despite you showing his playoff averages, the perception on this board, the general board as well as in the media that Towns isn't someone who can be relied upon in the playoffs. That won't change until he plays well in a series the Wolves win.

[urinesane]

Funny, I didn’t see you mention Points, Rebounds, FG%, 3P%, EFF, TS%, ad infinitum. Towns critics often ignore the good stuff, focusing solely on the bad.

Case in point, you said, “hasn’t necessarily shown up in the playoffs.” Towns has averaged 11.4 RB and 18.6 PPG in 16 playoff games. That’s showing up. Yes, he’s had too many turnovers, and hasn’t shot as well as he normally does during the season. He’s a mixed bag, but you can’t say he hasn’t shown up.

Finally, Towns’ very best season was the Butler year, when he was THIRD in FGA’s. I think he will be fine if Ant is the go to guy - most likely better than when he was the #1 option.

Actually, in another post, I did mention points and rebounds. Points because he'll take less shots (16.4 FG in 2021-22 vs. 14.8 FG in 2022-23) but more from the perimeter (4.9 3PT in 2021-22 vs. 5.7 3PT in 2022-23) resulting in less free throws (6.3 FT in 2021-22 vs. 4.7 FT in 2022-23). Edwards will lead the team in shots. Rebounds because he's playing PF next to Gobert (9.8 REB in 2021-22 vs. 8.1 REB in 2022-23). Based on this, I'm not sure why you think they would improve.

And despite you showing his playoff averages, the perception on this board, the general board as well as in the media that Towns isn't someone who can be relied upon in the playoffs. That won't change until he plays well in a series the Wolves win.

Your perception (and that of the general board/national media) is not necessarily reality (who cares what they think? They're consistently wrong). You brought up FGA, but it hasn't hurt him nearly as much in the past as Shrink stated with the Jimmy Butler season. His main point was, that if he improves his efficiency (which having other threats around will help, since the defense can't just insta-double him all the time), it will balance things out and he will still have a massive impact on winning.

He can still rebound, so if his numbers dip a bit because Gobert is gobbling them up, cool. The main issue was never KAT rebounding, it was team rebounding, and having Gobert (along with a higher emphasis on Jaden/Ant rebounding better) will be good for the team.

The game isn't played by one person and the box score/stats are just data from the game, they are not the game itself. If KAT isn't a #1 on a championship team (which I don't think he is), but if he can still be an important piece on a contender, who cares how much he gets paid? People need to stop worrying about money, it's not your money. It doesn't matter if the highest paid guy is getting the most stats. The only thing that matters is winning, period.

If they are winning, nobody will care how much they are getting paid. That's based on what they've done and where they are in their careers. It's not some paint by numbers "this guy makes this much, so he needs to get these stats" sort of equation.

Same with the Gobert trade. They paid a lot for him, but if it leads to the Timberwolves being relevant for an extended period, then it was worth every damn penny.

[Baseline81]

Your perception (and that of the general board/national media) is not necessarily reality (who cares what they think? They're consistently wrong). You brought up FGA, but it hasn't hurt him nearly as much in the past as Shrink stated with the Jimmy Butler season. His main point was, that if he improves his efficiency (which having other threats around will help, since the defense can't just insta-double him all the time), it will balance things out and he will still have a massive impact on winning.

He can still rebound, so if his numbers dip a bit because Gobert is gobbling them up, cool. The main issue was never KAT rebounding, it was team rebounding, and having Gobert (along with a higher emphasis on Jaden/Ant rebounding better) will be good for the team.

The game isn't played by one person and the box score/stats are just data from the game, they are not the game itself. If KAT isn't a #1 on a championship team (which I don't think he is), but if he can still be an important piece on a contender, who cares how much he gets paid? People need to stop worrying about money, it's not your money. It doesn't matter if the highest paid guy is getting the most stats. The only thing that matters is winning, period.

If they are winning, nobody will care how much they are getting paid. That's based on what they've done and where they are in their careers. It's not some paint by numbers "this guy makes this much, so he needs to get these stats" sort of equation.

Same with the Gobert trade. They paid a lot for him, but if it leads to the Timberwolves being relevant for an extended period, then it was worth every damn penny.

You continue to bring this up but the Wolves' new owners, based on how they've purchased the club, do not appear to be the kind that will go into the tax or remain there for multiple years in a row. Hence, yes, how much Towns is paid does impact things going forward.

There's a reason why those of us continue to bring up the new CBA and how the finances will change things. But you go on living in your fantasy land.

[Klomp]

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

A few things here.

You pointed to Towns being voted All-NBA prior to this past season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the "go-to" guy on the team. That's now changed to Edwards. Sure, there will be nights where KAT showcases himself, but it won't be as often as it used to be. His numbers will not reach what they previously were. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that.

Another thing, this one in regards to winning. I don't believe when posters bring this up they are speaking of the regular season. It seems to be more about how he hasn't necessarily shown up in the playoffs.

Finally, I see you didn't mention his fouling...

The all-NBA thing might not happen, just for the simple fact as you said Baseline81 of all-NBA voting switching to a non-positional system going forward. However, I think narrative-wise, it could absolutely turn with more team success.

I think of a guy like Zach Randolph. He was not someone thought of highly in the national realm, even though he was just shy of averaging 20/10 over a 4-year period in Portland before he reached 25. But the team success never came, and people blamed him.

After a dud two years in NY and LA, he was part of a renaissance in Memphis. But here's where the comparison gets interesting. He was an all-star his first year and all-NBA the next. But then, he gets hurt in 2011-12 and only plays 28 of 66 games. And the Grizzlies go 41-25 on the season, including 24-14 without him. He comes back for the playoffs against the Clippers, but averages just 14/10 on 42% shooting in a first round season loss. He was fourth on the team in scoring behind Gay, Gasol and Conley.

The next year, despite being no longer first in the pecking order (falling behind Gay who was 5 years younger) and averaging 5 ppg fewer than two seasons prior, Randolph made another all-star bid. Remember, team success gets rewarded. Often times, the third or fourth option on a playoff team can get selected ahead of the top player on a non-playoff team. This even can apply to players from smaller markets.

[Klomp]

On the CBA angle, are you guys sure that there is no grand father clauses? Twolves made player movements according to existing rule and planned ahead accordingly. Maybe something like it's allow acception until Gobert or Towns contract runs out?

What would there be a grandfather clause for specifically? There is nothing to grandfather in, the contract are the contracts.

To answer the question, absolutely not. The CBA was agreed to by all of teams and the NBPA; it is perfectly fair.

I was thinking something along the lines of like KG's contract was over the max. Maybe give them 1 or 2 extra years to sort out the "hard" cap but paid taxes under current system?

I don't believe any sort of exception was ever made. Individual contracts carry over, but the teams are still ultimately bound by the CBA.

[Baseline81]

The all-NBA thing might not happen, just for the simple fact as you said Baseline81 of all-NBA voting switching to a non-positional system going forward. However, I think narrative-wise, it could absolutely turn with more team success.

I think of a guy like Zach Randolph. He was not someone thought of highly in the national realm, even though he was just shy of averaging 20/10 over a 4-year period in Portland before he reached 25. But the team success never came, and people blamed him.

After a dud two years in NY and LA, he was part of a renaissance in Memphis. But here's where the comparison gets interesting. He was an all-star his first year and all-NBA the next. But then, he gets hurt in 2011-12 and only plays 28 of 66 games. And the Grizzlies go 41-25 on the season, including 24-14 without him. He comes back for the playoffs against the Clippers, but averages just 14/10 on 42% shooting in a first round season loss. He was fourth on the team in scoring behind Gay, Gasol and Conley.

The next year, despite being no longer first in the pecking order (falling behind Gay who was 5 years younger) and averaging 5 ppg fewer than two seasons prior, Randolph made another all-star bid. Remember, team success gets rewarded. Often times, the third or fourth option on a playoff team can get selected ahead of the top player on a non-playoff team. This even can apply to players from smaller markets.

Curious, what do you think Julius Randle's value is? He's technically a two-time all-star and made two all-NBA teams during his time with the Knicks.

[Klomp]

The all-NBA thing might not happen, just for the simple fact as you said Baseline81 of all-NBA voting switching to a non-positional system going forward. However, I think narrative-wise, it could absolutely turn with more team success.

I think of a guy like Zach Randolph. He was not someone thought of highly in the national realm, even though he was just shy of averaging 20/10 over a 4-year period in Portland before he reached 25. But the team success never came, and people blamed him.

After a dud two years in NY and LA, he was part of a renaissance in Memphis. But here's where the comparison gets interesting. He was an all-star his first year and all-NBA the next. But then, he gets hurt in 2011-12 and only plays 28 of 66 games. And the Grizzlies go 41-25 on the season, including 24-14 without him. He comes back for the playoffs against the Clippers, but averages just 14/10 on 42% shooting in a first round season loss. He was fourth on the team in scoring behind Gay, Gasol and Conley.

The next year, despite being no longer first in the pecking order (falling behind Gay who was 5 years younger) and averaging 5 ppg fewer than two seasons prior, Randolph made another all-star bid. Remember, team success gets rewarded. Often times, the third or fourth option on a playoff team can get selected ahead of the top player on a non-playoff team. This even can apply to players from smaller markets.

Curious, what do you think Julius Randle's value is? He's technically a two-time all-star and made two all-NBA teams during his time with the Knicks.

Well, considering these last three years have been the best three years the Knicks have had the past decade and are three out of the six best Knicks seasons of the last 20 years, I personally think he's a lot better than Knicks fans give him credit for. But the NY mentality of we'll just buy something better reigns supreme.

Have I been frustrated at times by Towns? Absolutely. Does that mean we need to tear this to the ground? I don't believe so.

[shrink]

Curious, what do you think Julius Randle's value is? He's technically a two-time all-star and made two all-NBA teams during his time with the Knicks.

I was just thinking about that guy!

First, I don’t think there are many qualities that Julius Randle is better at than Towns. He had a good season by his standards, but I think voters gave him the award to reward someone on the very popular New York Knicks.

That said, passing Randle again next year won’t matter. Under the new CBA, All NBA awards will no longer be position-based, and voters will simply vote for the 15 best players. In the past, this restriction may have hurt Towns, who was always battling for that third center spot with .. Rudy Gobert. I think Towns, when healthy, hovers around the 15th best NBA player - team success would certainly enhance his cause, as will aging out of several of the regular award winners.

[Klomp]

I think Towns, when healthy, hovers around the 15th best NBA player - team success would certainly enhance his cause, as will aging out of several of the regular award winners.

This is the tough part.

I think from around 15-30, it's actually pretty close, and 30 might be stopping too soon. You're choosing between guys who had good seasons on bad teams (Dejounte Murray previously, Tyrese Haliburton this year), young risers (Fox, Markkanen), vets with name recognition but down years by their standards (LeBron, Davis, Durant), and guys who were maybe the second or third option on a top team.

Think about this...Jamal Murray didn't get a single vote.

[Nick K]

Brought this over from the trade thread...



If Towns can retain his efficiency on a lower volume and team success comes with it, his value absolutely can improve. Lower volume can also allow Towns to focus more of his energy on defense. KAT's most efficient scoring season of his career came in 2017-18 (the Butler season). It was his second-lowest shooting volume of his career (14.3 FGApg), almost four shots less than the season below.

I think minds are mostly made up about Towns, and I think that's kinda what you are referring to here. However, his "issues" (whining, fouls, lack of winning) are largely correctable. The question next year will become whether what he provides will be worth the money he makes. That's why improving in those areas is important for him.

I also think a season of relative health will be important for his narrative. His fall from being an iron-man pre-COVID to missing a large chunk of time in three of the last four seasons is just as big of an effect on his narrative as his on-court production has been.

Are they?

I want to believe they are, however, we, as a collective, have been bringing up "these" same issues for several years now. As some point, he is who he is, Klomp.

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

Great point! I see Towns having a great year coming up. I think the coach asking him to do things he hadn't done before with the Rudy experiment hurt him some and then the injury which was a freak thing. Next year will be different and his value will skyrocket.

[Norseman79]

For me, watching when a player’s trade value increases or decreases is one of the most interesting parts of basketball and RealGM, so I always enjoy a discussion like this. Right now, I am firmly in the camp that Towns’ value will increase, from perhaps an all time low right now.

First, remember he just missed 51 games, and was mostly out of the national discussion this year, after being booted All NBA last year. Towns is expensive - teams will want to see him impacting the league and climbing up the leaderboards by putting up stats - something KAT has never struggled with.

Second, even the local podcasters have noticed that Towns isn’t whining for fouls any more, since his return. This is one of his most annoying features, so much so that many people look for things Towns can’t do, rather than look at the ,any things he can.

Finally, winning should improve. Obviously DLo and Ant struggled utilizing Gobert as he adjusted to the team. Conley and SloMo will only get better working with him. We had no Towns for half the season. And this year, Ant and Jaden will continue to be better - maybe much better. If the Timberwolves are in the top four of the Western Conference, people will pay more attention to the Wolves, and that will only improve KAT’s trade value. If we win too much we might not trade him.

Now, I think this window maximizes at the Trade Deadline, because next summer teams would have to match his higher salary. Towns may have a smaller role that when he started, but he is still the Wolves #2 option. He will just be doing more three point shooting (again, which raises his value), and facilitating. But there are only a handful of teams who don’t think they have a shot at the playoffs right now, if they could only find a way to bring in a player of KAT’s ability.

A few things here.

You pointed to Towns being voted All-NBA prior to this past season. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he the "go-to" guy on the team. That's now changed to Edwards. Sure, there will be nights where KAT showcases himself, but it won't be as often as it used to be. His numbers will not reach what they previously were. I'm not sure how anyone can argue against that.

Another thing, this one in regards to winning. I don't believe when posters bring this up they are speaking of the regular season. It seems to be more about how he hasn't necessarily shown up in the playoffs.

Finally, I see you didn't mention his fouling...

The all-NBA thing might not happen, just for the simple fact as you said Baseline81 of all-NBA voting switching to a non-positional system going forward. However, I think narrative-wise, it could absolutely turn with more team success.

I think of a guy like Zach Randolph. He was not someone thought of highly in the national realm, even though he was just shy of averaging 20/10 over a 4-year period in Portland before he reached 25. But the team success never came, and people blamed him.

After a dud two years in NY and LA, he was part of a renaissance in Memphis. But here's where the comparison gets interesting. He was an all-star his first year and all-NBA the next. But then, he gets hurt in 2011-12 and only plays 28 of 66 games. And the Grizzlies go 41-25 on the season, including 24-14 without him. He comes back for the playoffs against the Clippers, but averages just 14/10 on 42% shooting in a first round season loss. He was fourth on the team in scoring behind Gay, Gasol and Conley.

The next year, despite being no longer first in the pecking order (falling behind Gay who was 5 years younger) and averaging 5 ppg fewer than two seasons prior, Randolph made another all-star bid. Remember, team success gets rewarded. Often times, the third or fourth option on a playoff team can get selected ahead of the top player on a non-playoff team. This even can apply to players from smaller markets.

Randolph wasn't on a supermax contract though

[shrink]

For those that are worried about Towns’ supermax after all the news of the super lux came down in the new CBA, I wrote a couple economics things for the Trade Board this morning that might allay some of your fears:

Ever since the max deal was created in the CBA during the 1998-99 lockout, many people have held the belief that only the truly elite players are deserving of the deal. This opinion is often stated as a fact, and economically, it’s pretty easy to disprove.

First, just to get it out of the way, the max is an artificial threshold. I have seen people argue that if you pay KAT what you pay Jokic, KAT’s deal must be a bad one. The truth is that both deals can be good, but you simply get less additional value with KAT. If I was selling cars for $5000, and I sold one person a new BMW for $5000, it doesn’t mean a new Camry for $5000 is a bad deal.

But let me address the heart of your issue - less money available for total team construction. In 24-25, when Towns extension kicks in, the second apron will be almost $180 mil. Team One could fill its 15 roster spots with $12 mil players. Team Two could fill its roster with Towns ($49) and 14 roster spots with $9.35 mil players. The NBA is a competition, so getting more production on the floor any given night is going to give one team a win, and the other a loss, even if they are close. This drives up the value of players that are even a “little bit better” than your guys. Finding bargains is important, but five Austin Reaves aren’t going to win games - you still need to maximize your total payroll to get the most production, to put better guys on the floor.

And just to be clear, there are limits to a team having multiple max deals, and MIN may be pushing into it with KAT, Gobert, Ant, and whatever McDaniels get paid. This is what the new CBA restrictions are about - multiple max deals. MIN has reason to be concerned in 2024-25.

However, since most teams don’t carry three max deal players, it creates auctions for buyers of sub-elite max players like Towns and Dame, and if they are still productive, will maintain trade value. This is another thing about max deals that many on the trade board (myself included) have gotten wrong for the last two decades, when we are shocked year after year by how much actual teams get in trade for their sub-elite max players, who we had previously deemed “untradable.”